Facilities Master Plan

[bisonh8er]

Just had some site prep work for what is going to be the new facility. Basic work for contractors might start as early as Monday. What that all entails, I do not know.

[Ole in MSP]

Just had some site prep work for what is going to be the new facility. Basic work for contractors might start as early as Monday. What that all entails, I do not know.

If this is a GO, wouldn't there be SOME publicity about the project! I for one am pretty tired of reading the "maybe" information on this subject. If it is a reality then someone ought to step forward and say so. As an alum who does contribute money and follow the athletic programs as close as I can from afar, I am getting tired of reading about this "future" asset for the FB and track programs. Either it is, or it is not underway. Comments?

[MplsBison]

Congrats, this is going to be a great facility.

It's really too bad that NDSU can't build the indoor track building with a 300m track instead of a 200m track, but that would probably take the cost from 5 million to 10-15 million. Not in the cards. Anyone know why indoor tracks are 200m instead of 300m anyway?

[bisonh8er]

If this is a GO, wouldn't there be SOME publicity about the project! I for one am pretty tired of reading the "maybe" information on this subject. If it is a reality then someone ought to step forward and say so. As an alum who does contribute money and follow the athletic programs as close as I can from afar, I am getting tired of reading about this "future" asset for the FB and track programs. Either it is, or it is not underway. Comments?

All I know is that the site designated for construction was from columbia going east to include the old ralph and from 2nd ave going south to the railroad tracks. The job said it was for designing an indoor track with work to begin tomorrow afternoon but I assume they will just start Monday.

[dmksioux]

If this is a GO, wouldn't there be SOME publicity about the project! I for one am pretty tired of reading the "maybe" information on this subject. If it is a reality then someone ought to step forward and say so. As an alum who does contribute money and follow the athletic programs as close as I can from afar, I am getting tired of reading about this "future" asset for the FB and track programs. Either it is, or it is not underway. Comments?

All you need is just a little Patience

[siouxrunner]

Congrats, this is going to be a great facility.

It's really too bad that NDSU can't build the indoor track building with a 300m track instead of a 200m track, but that would probably take the cost from 5 million to 10-15 million. Not in the cards. Anyone know why indoor tracks are 200m instead of 300m anyway?

Indoor tracks aren't just 300m or 200m. Most are 200m, and that is considered the standard for NCAA qualifying times. However, there are flat 200m tracks, banked 200m tracks, undersized tracks (sometimes 180 yd) and oversize tracks. Oversize tracks can be 230m, 300m, 307m (as in the Dempsey Indoor facility at the University of Washington), 330m, even 400m. You can see a comparison of NCAA qualifying times for various indoor track configurations here.

As to "why" tracks are 200m instead of 300m, the answer is probably a combination of cost of the structure and traditional indoor building purposes. An indoor facility with a 300m track will be more expensive than one with a 200m track, and it will require a significantly larger footprint. Indoor football practice facilities are a modern invention compared to indoor hard surface courts for basketball and volleyball. As such, most existing indoor tracks are 200m. Older ones, like the track at Hyslop, are even shorter. A typical flat 200m track, like the one at the BSA, can still fit multiple practice basketball courts in the infield when aligned with the goals along the straightaways, and a competition basketball floor in the middle aligned with the goals facing the curves. Telescoping bleachers can be used then to extend the seating areas up to the edges of the competition court, like they are in the BSA and like they were in Hyslop. An indoor football practice facility with a football field and a track needs a 300m track to make the "field" wide and long enough to effectively practice plays. A 300m sized facility can also be used for baseball, softball and soccer, but usually not for basketball and volleyball. Also, many parts of the country don't need indoor facilities for football, soccer, baseball and softball, adding to the rarity of indoor 300m tracks. However, everyone needs indoor facilities for basketball.

You can find a decent discussion of the merits of 200m flat vs 200m banked vs oversized tracks here.

[star2city]

Congrats, this is going to be a great facility.

It's really too bad that NDSU can't build the indoor track building with a 300m track instead of a 200m track, but that would probably take the cost from 5 million to 10-15 million. Not in the cards. Anyone know why indoor tracks are 200m instead of 300m anyway?

Didn't you just answer your own question? NDSU isn't going to spend $10 mill + a 300 m track, when they don't have the money yet to refurbish the BSA. IMHO, NDSU is now pushing to get the 200 m track shack addition done now, because they know their program's recruiting will be hurt by UND's 300 m track. UND's track programs up to this time haven't been given much funding, in part because UND's Hyslop facilities was non-competitive. With a new indoor practice facility, that will change.

[star2city]

Indoor tracks aren't just 300m or 200m. Most are 200m, and that is considered the standard for NCAA qualifying times. However, there are flat 200m tracks, banked 200m tracks, undersized tracks (sometimes 180 yd) and oversize tracks. Oversize tracks can be 230m, 300m, 307m (as in the Dempsey Indoor facility at the University of Washington), 330m, even 400m. You can see a comparison of NCAA qualifying times for various indoor track configurations here.

As to "why" tracks are 200m instead of 300m, the answer is probably a combination of cost of the structure and traditional indoor building purposes. An indoor facility with a 300m track will be more expensive than one with a 200m track, and it will require a significantly larger footprint. Indoor football practice facilities are a modern invention compared to indoor hard surface courts for basketball and volleyball. As such, most existing indoor tracks are 200m. Older ones, like the track at Hyslop, are even shorter. A typical flat 200m track, like the one at the BSA, can still fit multiple practice basketball courts in the infield when aligned with the goals along the straightaways, and a competition basketball floor in the middle aligned with the goals facing the curves. Telescoping bleachers can be used then to extend the seating areas up to the edges of the competition court, like they are in the BSA and like they were in Hyslop. An indoor football practice facility with a football field and a track needs a 300m track to make the "field" wide and long enough to effectively practice plays. A 300m sized facility can also be used for baseball, softball and soccer, but usually not for basketball and volleyball. Also, many parts of the country don't need indoor facilities for football, soccer, baseball and softball, adding to the rarity of indoor 300m tracks. However, everyone needs indoor facilities for basketball.

You can find a decent discussion of the merits of 200m flat vs 200m banked vs oversized tracks here.

Nice post!

[GeauxSioux]

According to this report...Operating Principle 3.1 Gender Issues, the Practice Facility will open in FY12...

In order to address this, men‟s and women‟s track will move to locker rooms in the new indoor practice facility when it opens (FY12), and men‟s and women‟s golf will move into vacated space on-site in the original facility.

[Ole in MSP]

All you need is just a little Patience

Really? I think I have been hearing about this project for over 5-7 years. Is that not long enough? Gimmee a break. Get it done already.

[darell1976]

According to this report...Operating Principle 3.1 Gender Issues, the Practice Facility will open in FY12...

Seems like everything is happening in 2012...playoffs, Big Sky, Indoor Practice Facility. Cannot wait!!!!!!

[bisonh8er]

Does anyone have a link to a sketch of the practice facility? I've seen the sketches for the stadium ones but not the practice facility.

[GeauxSioux]

Does anyone have a link to a sketch of the practice facility? I've seen the sketches for the stadium ones but not the practice facility.

The last ones that I saw were on Icon Architects website

I don't know if that was the final design or not.

[IrishSiouxFan]

The last ones that I saw were on Icon Architects website

I don't know if that was the final design or not.

Closest I could come to finding a pic of it http://grandforkslife.blogspot.com/2007/12/und-is-planning-for-future.html

[IrishSiouxFan]

It's almost kind of painful to look at the "horse shoe" stadium, I would have given anything to see UND play in that facility (anything but the $285 million )

[UND Fan]

I have all the drawings as of 3-4 months ago. I will try to post some of the details over the weekend.

[MplsBison]

Indoor tracks aren't just 300m or 200m. Most are 200m, and that is considered the standard for NCAA qualifying times. However, there are flat 200m tracks, banked 200m tracks, undersized tracks (sometimes 180 yd) and oversize tracks. Oversize tracks can be 230m, 300m, 307m (as in the Dempsey Indoor facility at the University of Washington), 330m, even 400m. You can see a comparison of NCAA qualifying times for various indoor track configurations here.

As to "why" tracks are 200m instead of 300m, the answer is probably a combination of cost of the structure and traditional indoor building purposes. An indoor facility with a 300m track will be more expensive than one with a 200m track, and it will require a significantly larger footprint. Indoor football practice facilities are a modern invention compared to indoor hard surface courts for basketball and volleyball. As such, most existing indoor tracks are 200m. Older ones, like the track at Hyslop, are even shorter. A typical flat 200m track, like the one at the BSA, can still fit multiple practice basketball courts in the infield when aligned with the goals along the straightaways, and a competition basketball floor in the middle aligned with the goals facing the curves. Telescoping bleachers can be used then to extend the seating areas up to the edges of the competition court, like they are in the BSA and like they were in Hyslop. An indoor football practice facility with a football field and a track needs a 300m track to make the "field" wide and long enough to effectively practice plays. A 300m sized facility can also be used for baseball, softball and soccer, but usually not for basketball and volleyball. Also, many parts of the country don't need indoor facilities for football, soccer, baseball and softball, adding to the rarity of indoor 300m tracks. However, everyone needs indoor facilities for basketball.

You can find a decent discussion of the merits of 200m flat vs 200m banked vs oversized tracks here.

Thanks, great post. It just seems to me that if you have a football team and don't already have a dedicated indoor field, then building a 300m indoor track is such a no-brainer. You can put a full 100yd football field in the infield of a 300m track and have the facility double as an indoor football field.

I sort've agree with the last poster in the discussion you linked to, does indoor track really matter? I know the NCAA allows schools to count indoor track as a separate sport from outdoor track towards the required number of sports and I know there are separate championships awarded for indoor track. But how legitimate can the sport be if there's not even a standardized competition format.

What is the appeal of indoor track for runners? Every other sport has a single competition season (fall, winter or spring) and the rest of the year is spent training for the next competition season. Why do runners need to have competitions in the winter as well as the spring? Not to mention, some track runners also compete on the cross country team in the fall - which is also allowed to count as a separate sport. Seems kinda ridiculous.

[MplsBison]

Didn't you just answer your own question? NDSU isn't going to spend $10 mill + a 300 m track, when they don't have the money yet to refurbish the BSA. IMHO, NDSU is now pushing to get the 200 m track shack addition done now, because they know their program's recruiting will be hurt by UND's 300 m track. UND's track programs up to this time haven't been given much funding, in part because UND's Hyslop facilities was non-competitive. With a new indoor practice facility, that will change.

Yeah but obviously the investment would be well worth it. NDSU can't practice in the Fargodome anytime they please. That's hardly the case, in fact I don't think the Fargodome likes having to cater to NDSU on the days they aren't playing games there. NDSU could really use a dedicated indoor field. The baseball, softball and soccer teams would benefit as well.

Seems very short-sighted.

I read a post either here or on bisonville saying that the arena upgrades to the BSA are only going to be 3-4 million of the overall 28 million improvement. So other than the arena upgrades, new bball practice facility and new weight room/training facility - I'd like to see the money go toward expanding the indoor track building from 200m to 300m and putting a field in the middle. Just makes too much sense. The other updates can wait or be cancelled.

[siouxrunner]

Thanks, great post. It just seems to me that if you have a football team and don't already have a dedicated indoor field, then building a 300m indoor track is such a no-brainer. You can put a full 100yd football field in the infield of a 300m track and have the facility double as an indoor football field.

I sort've agree with the last poster in the discussion you linked to, does indoor track really matter? I know the NCAA allows schools to count indoor track as a separate sport from outdoor track towards the required number of sports and I know there are separate championships awarded for indoor track. But how legitimate can the sport be if there's not even a standardized competition format.

What is the appeal of indoor track for runners? Every other sport has a single competition season (fall, winter or spring) and the rest of the year is spent training for the next competition season. Why do runners need to have competitions in the winter as well as the spring? Not to mention, some track runners also compete on the cross country team in the fall - which is also allowed to count as a separate sport. Seems kinda ridiculous.

You're welcome. Glad to add to the discussion. Now, since you have a lot of questions and comments in one post, I'll try to take them one at a time.

I'm not so sure building a 300m indoor track is such a "no-brainer" in all cases. First, you'd need to be in a part of the country where an indoor practice facility is necessary, like in North Dakota. Then, you need the multiple millions of dollars it takes to build a facility big enough to house a 300m track and a football field. Then, even if you have a northern school with the capital to build the facility, you need a pretty large piece of land to build it on. My point is, there are a lot of hoops to jump through and a lot of time and thought to be put in before any school with a football team can just build an indoor football practice facility. That said, if you have the ability to make it through all those hoops, then yeah, it is a great asset to the programs and athletes that can use it.

In the discussion linked in the previous post, there is a second page as well that has some great information in it, click the 2 on the bottom or top right side of the page.

You ask if indoor track really matters. That depends entirely on who you ask. If you ask me, I'll tell you it matters to me, but not as much as outdoor track. Maybe it doesn't matter at all to you. I think if you were to ask most track & field athletes, they would tell you it matters to them, but outdoor track is where the real glory is (and, not surprisingly, where the money is made). Whether or not something like an NCAA sport "matters" is completely subjective. It obviously matters to UND enough that they sponsor the sport, and it matters the NCAA enough that they host a national championship event. As to its legitimacy, the IAAF maintains world record lists and hosts world championships specifically for indoor track & field. I think that adds a bit of legitimacy to the sport as a separate entity from outdoor track & field. If you are questioning the "legitimacy" of the sport based on the existence of multiple sizes of competition venues, then you could make the same argument for hockey (olympic, NHL and old DECC size ice surfaces), baseball (field shapes are all different), swimming (pool depth), football (playing surface, indoor/outdoor), horse racing (track length), etc. I think we can both agree that argument is foolish, at best, for those sports. There is a "standard" indoor track, the flat 200m length. Also, the races lengths don't change depending on track size or arrangement. The issue of unfairly acquired times arises when running on a banked or oversized track gives a slight advantage that wouldn't be there on a 200m flat track. The NCAA does their best to address the track configuration advantages through time adjustments to standardize everything based upon a flat 200m track. Without the adjustment, no one trying to qualify for the national meet would bother running on a 200m flat track, they would all flock to the 300m and banked 200m tracks.

The appeal of indoor track for a runner, jumper or thrower is the same as the appeal of any kind of competition for any college athlete. Competition helps an athlete improve times and distances. There are other sports that have just as long of a competition season as track. Swimming & diving go through winter into late spring, just like track. Besides, most D I athletes practice year-round. Some, like distance runners, are able to more easily compete year-round.

If I understand you correctly, your point is basically that running is running, it doesn't matter whether it an event is run outside or inside or over hills and fields, its all the same. While indoor and outdoor track are indeed very similar, track and cross country are very different. Running over hills on widely varying courses in cross country brings many different variables into the race, making the sport much different than running on a track. Also, XC is much more of a team sport than track. The fact that the running "season" lasts all year long, and that some athletes are able to compete all year long may seem "kinda ridiculous" to you, but to others it makes perfect sense.

[GeauxSioux]

I have all the drawings as of 3-4 months ago. I will try to post some of the details over the weekend.

Man, I was looking forward to some detail.

[UND Fan]

Man, I was looking forward to some detail.

My apologies - just didn't get to it. Will try to do so soon.

[UND Fan]

I hesitate to provide this info as I would guess there have been some changes in the renderings since I received them.

It appears to be an extremely impressive facility. Some details:

[*]More than 140,000 sq ft

[*]Full 100 yd FB field with separate 20 yd area working area for linemen

[*]300 yd track with eight 42" lanes

[*]60 ft high with videotaping towers

[*]Two levels of offices, weight rooms, meeting rooms, sports medicine facilities, locker rooms, storage etc. (It is nice to see plenty of storage space after the Betty was built with "none'!)

I suppose $ will determine whether this can all be done a once or if many of the items listed in the last bullet will be completed at a later date. I recommend that they formally launch a fund raising effort when the plans are announced. I think many of us will be willing to assist to complete the building "right" the first time rather than have it be an ongoing project for the next few years.

Folks - it sure appears that this will be an outstanding facility. It will be a tremendous tool for recruiting and for practice/game preparation.

Again - the above details may have been altered since I received my copy of the plans.

[UND92,96]

I hesitate to provide this info as I would guess there have been some changes in the renderings since I received them.

It appears to be an extremely impressive facility. Some details:

[*]More than 140,000 sq ft

[*]Full 100 yd FB field with separate 20 yd area working area for linemen

[*]300 yd track with eight 42" lanes

[*]60 ft high with videotaping towers

[*]Two levels of offices, weight rooms, meeting rooms, sports medicine facilities, locker rooms, storage etc. (It is nice to see plenty of storage space after the Betty was built with "none'!

I suppose $ will determine whether this can all be done a once or if many of the items listed in the last bullet will be completed at a later date. I recommend that they formally launch a fund raising effort when the plans are announced. I think many of us will be willing to assist to complete the building "right" the first time rather than have it be an ongoing project for the next few years.

Folks - it sure appears that this will be an outstanding facility. It will be a tremendous tool for recruiting and for practice/game preparation.

Again - the above details may have been altered since I received my copy of the plans.

Any idea of the estimated cost of the facility with all of the above-described features?

[The Sicatoka]

About a year ago I heard Faison say to do an indoor facilty "right" would be $19-20 million.

[UNDvince97-01]

I hesitate to provide this info as I would guess there have been some changes in the renderings since I received them.

It appears to be an extremely impressive facility. Some details:

[*]More than 140,000 sq ft

[*]Full 100 yd FB field with separate 20 yd area working area for linemen

[*]300 yd track with eight 42" lanes

[*]60 ft high with videotaping towers

[*]Two levels of offices, weight rooms, meeting rooms, sports medicine facilities, locker rooms, storage etc. (It is nice to see plenty of storage space after the Betty was built with "none'!)

I suppose $ will determine whether this can all be done a once or if many of the items listed in the last bullet will be completed at a later date. I recommend that they formally launch a fund raising effort when the plans are announced. I think many of us will be willing to assist to complete the building "right" the first time rather than have it be an ongoing project for the next few years.

Folks - it sure appears that this will be an outstanding facility. It will be a tremendous tool for recruiting and for practice/game preparation.

Again - the above details may have been altered since I received my copy of the plans.

For those who are interested, feel free to take out your check books to help this cause. Every $100 donation adds up and counts.