Buning Says UND Moving

[Cratter]

But is he right? Did Buning even say this? Or did the Forum interpret his words and made a major headline? The loss of the largest school in the Dakotas in the NCC will surely affect USD and SCSU. I look for both of them to move to D1 within the near future. The best long term solution would be to get into a conference with NDSU, SDSU, USD, SCSU, and a couple other regional schools. Best of both worlds. D1 is becoming so watered down with former division 2 schools. They even basically made a seperate football division for those schools. IAA. UND should move up. They have a larger enrollment and football attendance than the average IAA school.

[SiouxMeNow]

"they" forgot to add the actual question that was asked at the press conference..."hey Tom, if it was up to you?" He said if it was UP to him UND would move up but it's not up to him...it was just HIS OPINION (after reviewing UND's internal classification report) Just FYI - When was the last time an AD made a decision for the entire university??

(PAY ATTENTION!!!)

[andtheHomeoftheSIOUX!!]

So if we are going to make the move, when is it going to be announced? After all of that hype things seem to have gotten very quiet. You would think a D-1 move would be anounced before the Mid-Con meeting, though.

[southpaw]

So if we are going to make the move, when is it going to be announced? After all of that hype things seem to have gotten very quiet. You would think a D-1 move would be anounced before the Mid-Con meeting, though.

they will announce it before the july 1st deadline, i'd imagine.

[UND Fan]

I am curious - for those of you living in GF or anywhere in ND, what are people saying about the potential move. Pro, con, non-issue???

[airmail]

I am curious - for those of you living in GF or anywhere in ND, what are people saying about the potential move. Pro, con, non-issue???

The circles I am in are concerned about competing, (mostly a concern with the basketball programs) conference affiliation, and putting UND athletics further into red ink.

For me, it's an exciting but nervous time for UND sports. Lots of questions yet... hopefully we'll all find out the answers soon.

[Irish]

I am curious - for those of you living in GF or anywhere in ND, what are people saying about the potential move. Pro, con, non-issue???

It is somewhat of a non-issue right now - except for a few excited supporters of Division I. Most people I know are against the move - many things need to be better explained including finances, conference affiliation, title 9 implications etc. There is not a groundswell of support that will include increased financial support. Most people can't understand why we are in the red now - with increased football attendance from the move indoors, increased hockey attendance, the increase in ticket prices etc. No one I knows understands the relationship between the Englestead and the athletic budget. The general feeling is that we should have a comfortable financial cushion.

Most people I know including myself see football as the only sport that would benefit from a move up. That is because there is a IAA level for football only. We would sacrifice all other sports. I would much rather have the Sioux Women's basketball team in contention for a national title that go the way of the Bison Women's program for example. Many people see this recommendation as something that was done in the backroom behind closed doors and that the wishes of the general public will be disregarded. Remember, polls show that there is a majority against the move. I wonder if this is a done deal and if the committee is there only to give the appearance of outside input. I feel that a move to Division I is a huge mistake, and one that probably will be made regardless of public opinion.

[Csonked Out]

Think of UND as a business instead of just athletics and the answers start to become more clear. The first thing to remember is that we are doing this because of what schools such as NDSU, SDSU, and Northern did, without these schools going D1, UND would not be considering it. With the declining young population in North Dakota, competition is becoming even stronger between these schools to recruit students. With NDSU's success at the higher level goes prestige and popularity, which are two major issues that effect student enrollment. So it is true that if UND goes D1 it will hurt a lot of sports chances of winning titles for a long time, but by not going D1 UND is going to lose not only the recruiting battle, but the student battle. NDSU's growth has greatly increased since its D1 move, and that has slowed UND's growth along with UND's new academic standards, something has to be done to not fall behind, and that is the truth.

As for the questions that you mentioned Title 9 will not effect UND at all because we have already made the necessary adjustments to fall in compliance by adding women's hockey. As for the economics of everything that is a little tricky to understand for most of the general public, because most of the public doesn't have in depth knowledge of the economic system and how it works. It is true that hockey is the bread and butter of UND economically speaking. The program is always in the green and makes up a lot of losses from other sports that will never make UND money. The reason that UND is in the red is because of the women's hockey program. Every year scholarship numbers are increasing while ticket sales are usuaully very minimal, so this sport alone is costing UND a lot of money, but it must be kept to keep in compliance with Title IX.

The bottom line is 95% of all colleges don't rely on athletics to make money, because it is very hard to do, and UND is actually sitting very comfortably right now. For instance, the University of Minnesota has been in the red a total of $55 million over the past 5 years, and their athletic budget is a hair of $50 million a year, so lookin at that UND suddenly appears to be in very good shape. As much as everyone doesn't wanna hear this, the General Public really doesn't have a lot to do in this decision. Its about what is best for the University in the long run, and if the people in high up places (pres., alumni, coaches, etc.) Feel that we will be missing out on valuable students and competition, then UND will go even if more people in GF are against it than for it.

Another thing to consider is the cost of D2. UND has to travel farther and farther every year to play teams, and with the minimal recognition of D2 the payoffs just aren't there to cover these extra expenses anymore, so why not pay an extra $1 million or so to go D1, because the money benefits for playin bigger teams, along with tournament money have the potential to make up these losses.

Think of it this way, say you wanna buy a brand new Chevrolet Cavalier but the price is going up to $17-18,000 instead of $14,000. Then you realize for just $2,000 more you could have a brand new corvette. With a difference of only $2,000 it suddenly becomes very affordable as apposed to the $6,000 from before. I know this isn't a realistic example, but by thinking of it in an over simplified way such as this, the economics of going D1 become a little bit more clearer for the general public.

As for the Engelstad it operates similarily to how the metrodome and the twins operate. The family owns Engelstad not the university, so UND doesn't get all of the profit from the arena. This is why the twins wanted a new stadium, so the team would get all of the profits. But with the gorgeous arena this is a different situation for UND. The team/University will never be able to maximize profit in the arena because the University doesn't own it.

Another very important question to ask is, would we rather be nationally known in 2 or 3 sports at a D1 level, or win titles in D2? On a national scale a D2 title is minimal compared to if NDSU's basketball team made the NCAA basketball tournament. The press coverage alone would be huge.

As for conference affiliation, until UND states its intentions, their wont be one. UND will travel a very similar path that NDSU did. We must prove ourselves in order to get into a conference, and thats the reality of it. The only chance we would have, and this would still be slim would be if a conference took NDSU, and felt we would be a great travel partner, but that will be the only way UND will get into a conference immediately.

[dlsiouxfan]

The rationale for moving to division I should be simple. How can we expect to make any kind of money whatsoever playing a schedule with some of the crap DII teams that are starting to show up on it in ever increasing frequency every season. A championship loses a lot of it's luster in my opinion if you the only people you beat for it shouldn't be playing you in the first place. We have to think long term with this move and remaining division II isn't a viable long- term option if UND wants to maintain or improve on it's current stature. Perception eventually becomes reality and if enough people start perceiving ndsu to be superior to us because of athletics and other start considering schools like Mary and Winona are equals then that's eventually that's the level of school we'll become.

[UND Fan]

Guys - don't take me wrong, I appreciate your thoughts on the matter but I am really trying to get an overview of what the average UND alum living in ND thinks about it, what the average college sports fan thinks about it, etc. We really have debated it enough. There are strong and valid arguments on both sides.

What do your neighbors and people down the street think? Will supporters write larger checks if we move, etc.?

[bincitysioux]

What do your neighbors and people down the street think? Will supporters write larger checks if we move, etc.?

I am 100% in favor of a DI move. My level of giving will increase if the University moves up. I can't think of one UND fan, supporter, alum that I personally know that feels that UND is in the right place in being DII. The few people that I do personally run into that thinks UND belongs in DII are fans, supporters, or alumni of a different institution, and I would say that of all the fans, supporters, & alumni of a different institution that I personally run into where I live the vast majority of them even think or want UND to move up.

[GeauxSioux]

My parents live in GF and their opinion is that it is inevitable that UND will be in Division I. Why not make is sooner rather than later. They have been season ticket holders for basketball since the 1960's and last year was a very disappointing year to endure. I'm sure if the level of play and competition continues on the same track attendance will suffer.

If I were a student at UND or local fan, I would much rather see UNI, Creighton, UWGB .... than see Mayville, Crookston, Minot. Sure we may lose to some of the D I teams, but lately we have been losing to DAC10 teams.

Obviously putting NDSU back on the schedule again would also mean more $$ for us and for them.

[The Sicatoka]

The message I hear from fellow alumni is the message that the report to Kupchella gave: Have solid answers on cost, and decent answers on conference.

Given answers to those two, I don't see any group (save maybe faculty) saying just plain "no way" the notion.

[Shawn-O]

I am 100% in favor of a DI move. My level of giving will increase if the University moves up. I can't think of one UND fan, supporter, alum that I personally know that feels that UND is in the right place in being DII. The few people that I do personally run into that thinks UND belongs in DII are fans, supporters, or alumni of a different institution, and I would say that of all the fans, supporters, & alumni of a different institution that I personally run into where I live the vast majority of them even think or want UND to move up.

Ditto.

[farce poobah]

The message I hear from fellow alumni is the message that the report to Kupchella gave: Have solid answers on cost, and decent answers on conference.

Given answers to those two, I don't see any group (save maybe faculty) saying just plain "no way" the notion.

Agree, with just one modifier - "have solid answer on costs and revenues". I think there's money being left on the table today, that would go a long way toward bridging the gap to the costs increases.

Revenue alternatives (these are obvious even to a layperson like me):

1) A spring sport that generates revenue, AND publicity during a time of year when there's less going on at the high school and college level. Hmm... Generating $200k+ from LAX is doable (probably not in year 1, but within 3-4 years). (In order to add to the AD bottom line, clearly, lax would need to be funded by cuts in other programs, such as baseball.)

2) Men's basketball is the next big revenue opportunity. Increase average attendance by 1500 is doable even assuming all games at the Betty ($200k revenues) Add 1-2 road games at big name opponents ($x) and bring in a top mid-major for a game at the Ralph (10k heads --> $150k)

3) Bring in a top-name women's team (Big Ten type), might it too bring $100k+ for a game at the Ralph?

4) Women's hockey is totally untapped. Needs to be competitive first, but this town loves hockey and WBB proves the town will support top, competitive, women's sports. Even 1000 heads per game = $200k per year.

5) Not sure how much the payoff would be from Frozen Four appearances ($y) but that's not insignificant.

6) Volleyball ... is there $50-75k possible? Sure.

Did we find a million yet? What did I miss?

It can be done, but it needs good marketing, good scheduling (conference!!)... and so on.

====================

As to faculty, if they can be convinced it adds students ($$ for academics), the proposal flies.

[Shawn-O]

Great post. And the hosting of D-2 post-season events is out the window with the NCAA nickname fight, so there goes what minimal revenue upside that existed.

1) A spring sport that generates revenue, AND publicity during a time of year when there's less going on at the high school and college level. Hmm... Generating $200k+ from LAX is doable (probably not in year 1, but within 3-4 years). (In order to add to the AD bottom line, clearly, lax would need to be funded by cuts in other programs, such as baseball.)

Lacrosse is starting to taking off here in the Twin Cities, so that could be a solid recruiting base that UND would have to themselves. Hangin' with schools like Notre Dame, Ohio State, and Johns Hopkins ain't so bad either. I'm sold on the men's side, the jury is out on women's lacrosse, in my opinion.

Men's basketball is the next big revenue opportunity. Increase average attendance by 1500 is doable even assuming all games at the Betty ($200k revenues) Add 1-2 road games at big name opponents ($x) and bring in a top mid-major for a game at the Ralph (10k heads --> $150k)

Agreed. Longer term, add in a small piece of the March Madness TV pie (<$50K is my guess, it isn't huge for the lower-tier DI's).

Bring in a top-name women's team (Big Ten type), might it too bring $100k+ for a game at the Ralph?

Sandwich a Gopher women's game into a Saturday afternoon during a Sioux-Gopher hockey weekend, that would be good fun.

Women's hockey is totally untapped. Needs to be competitive first, but this town loves hockey and WBB proves the town will support top, competitive, women's sports. Even 1000 heads per game = $200k per year.

Irrelevant. Sames goes true in D2.

As to faculty, if they can be convinced it adds students ($$ for academics), the proposal flies.

We'll continue to get the aspiring doctors, lawyers, etc. It's the battleground programs like business and engineering where I think there is truly future students at stake.

[RD17]

There are some good thoughts thrown out there in this thread and I just have two things to add:

1. I think people are overestimating the affect divisional affiliation has on enrollment... as long as the academic programs at UND continue to be outstanding people are going to come to school here regardless of Division I or II. I also don't see this as a zero sum game between UND and NDSU for students... there are a lot of reasons (declining enrollment in the local high schools, weather, etc) why both schools should be struggling to maintain their numbers but both are clearly growing and prospering. As I understand it, UND was expecting a pullback of 500 to 700 in total enrollment due to the new academic standards this year and yet the headcount remained steady... this certainly bodes well for the future.

2. The entrance standards for athletes are more stringent in Division I than Division II and UND's requirements are much more in line with D-I. If UND stays D-II many of the other schools they are competing against are recruiting from an entirely different pool of athletes... in fact this is even happening to some extent now within the NCC. I think if this point were being raised with the faculty, they may be much more receptive about switching divisions.

[katohtr]

If 'su would have been a "LEADER" - you would have moved up 20 years ago when your "major sport" DID rule DII football! You only (finally and selfishly) pulled the chute when you realized you couldn't bank your future on a two-decade old reputation you couldn't maintain. You left with your tail between your legs but countered it by promptly throwing your noses up in the air - I guess one of your engineering degrees DOES have some practical applications!

I apologize but I had to drag this post out of a different thread.

I just wanted to thank Siouxmenow for this post. You hit the nail on the head with this one...this is PERFECT!!!