Media Stories on the Sioux Name

[Goon]

So, I go to our own UND Bookstore website to check out the goods and run across this,

North Dakota Mascot Women's Tee

WTF!! NORTH DAKOTA MASCOT!?!?!?

I guess I didn't realized we had a mascot, I thought we had a logo...

[GeauxSioux]

A mixed year, at best

Witlessness continues to afflict North Dakota bureaucracies and the chattering class, especially on the now-verboten University of North Dakota

[Big A HG]

So, I go to our own UND Bookstore website to check out the goods and run across this,

North Dakota Mascot Women's Tee

WTF!! NORTH DAKOTA MASCOT!?!?!?

I'm 99% sure that's the name of the shirt style from the company.

Just like this shirt isn't literally a "Shootout", although that's the model name of this shirt from Reebok:

They likely mass produce generic logo'd shirts for a ton of universities depicting the primary logo.

[Big A HG]

Here is another example of a shirt being called a "Mascot Tee".

This Florida State Seminoles shirt is an "adidas Florida State Seminoles Super Soft Vintage Mascot T-Shirt", and it doesn't even have any person/animal reference, just their "FS" logo. All it is, and it's the same story with the Sioux one, is a name for the model of the shirt.

http://www.dickssportinggoods.com/product/index.jsp?productId=4016877

Also, the debate over the term mascot that has occurred on and off over the last couple years on here should be settled by the definition. The definition of the term "mascot" is: an animal, person, or thing adopted by a group as its representative symbol and supposed to bring good luck. -Random House Dictionary, found on dictionary.com

A logo, as seen on the shirt, is a "thing", as described in the definition, and easily fits in line with the term "mascot".

[Blackheart]

Here is another example of a shirt being called a "Mascot Tee".

This Florida State Seminoles shirt is an "adidas Florida State Seminoles Super Soft Vintage Mascot T-Shirt", and it doesn't even have any person/animal reference, just their "FS" logo. All it is, and it's the same story with the Sioux one, is a name for the model of the shirt.

http://www.dickssportinggoods.com/product/index.jsp?productId=4016877

Also, the debate over the term mascot that has occurred on and off over the last couple years on here should be settled by the definition. The definition of the term "mascot" is: an animal, person, or thing adopted by a group as its representative symbol and supposed to bring good luck. -Random House Dictionary, found on dictionary.com

A logo, as seen on the shirt, is a "thing", as described in the definition, and easily fits in line with the term "mascot".

So you're saying we can keep Sioux?

[darell1976]

Here is another example of a shirt being called a "Mascot Tee".

This Florida State Seminoles shirt is an "adidas Florida State Seminoles Super Soft Vintage Mascot T-Shirt", and it doesn't even have any person/animal reference, just their "FS" logo. All it is, and it's the same story with the Sioux one, is a name for the model of the shirt.

http://www.dickssportinggoods.com/product/index.jsp?productId=4016877

Also, the debate over the term mascot that has occurred on and off over the last couple years on here should be settled by the definition. The definition of the term "mascot" is: an animal, person, or thing adopted by a group as its representative symbol and supposed to bring good luck. -Random House Dictionary, found on dictionary.com

A logo, as seen on the shirt, is a "thing", as described in the definition, and easily fits in line with the term "mascot".

If the NCAA had balls and stuck with the original list and made all NA nicknamed schools get rid of the name and logo instead of providing exceptions...Florida State's logo could have looked like this.

[Let'sGoHawks!]

The plug hasn't been pulled yet!

GF Herald link

[mksioux]

The plug hasn't been pulled yet!

GF Herald link

Too little too late. Where was the Governor and the legislature a year ago when UND desperately needed Standing Rock to schedule a referendum to get tribal approval prior to the November 30, 2010 deadline? The State could have applied pressure to Standing Rock to hold a referendum. The Governor or Legislative leaders could have participated in government-to-government negotiations back when it mattered. This is all too late now. The deadline in the settlement agreement has passed. The NCAA has no obligation to exempt UND from its sanctions even if Standing Rock were to approve of the nickname (which it has given no indication it will). If UND retains the nickname, it will go back on the NCAA's sanctions list and will not be able to host any post-season events. The football program in particular would be devastated under those sanctions. I note that an NDSU graduate is pushing this. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and will assume he doesn't understand the consequences of such a law. But I won't be surprised if many NDSU backers in the legislature will back this bill because it would mean NDSU would gain a big advantage over UND in football. Once the legislators are educated as to the consequences of such a statute, it will have no chance of passing.

[darell1976]

The plug hasn't been pulled yet!

GF Herald link

It won't fly. For one thing AG Wayne Stenjeum would find it unconsitutional or some crap like that and the bill would die, also its past the NCAA 11-30-10 deadline. Unless they can strike a deal with the NCAA FIRST, then the Standing Rock (which won't fly either). Just let the nickname enjoy its retirement. Its sad and cruel that it ended but where was this legislature in 2008, 2009, and all of 2010?

[MoreSiouxForYou]

Too little too late. Where was the Governor and the legislature a year ago when UND desperately needed Standing Rock to schedule a referendum to get tribal approval prior to the November 30, 2010 deadline? The State could have applied pressure to Standing Rock to hold a referendum. The Governor or Legislative leaders could have participated in government-to-government negotiations back when it mattered. This is all too late now. The deadline in the settlement agreement has passed. The NCAA has no obligation to exempt UND from its sanctions even if Standing Rock were to approve of the nickname (which it has given no indication it will). If UND retains the nickname, it will go back on the NCAA's sanctions list and will not be able to host any post-season events. The football program in particular would be devastated under those sanctions. I note that an NDSU graduate is pushing this. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and will assume he doesn't understand the consequences of such a law. But I won't be surprised if many NDSU backers in the legislature will back this bill because it would mean NDSU would gain a big advantage over UND in football. Once the legislators are educated as to the consequences of such a statute, it will have no chance of passing.

Legislature only convenes every other year. Two years ago they were hoping things would run the course of the tribes voting.

Al isn't "pushing" this, he is only assigining the drafted bills to comittee for discussion as he is required with all bills. He even says, he is not as passonate about it as others.

[ScottM]

The plug hasn't been pulled yet!

GF Herald link

Perhaps they should have thought about this 3-4 years ago when the fight was still going on. As it is, the settlement pretty much scuttled UND's use of the Sioux name/logo, especially since neither SR nor SL really got into the game until after it was too late.

[mksioux]

Legislature only convenes every other year. Two years ago they were hoping things would run the course of the tribes voting.

Al isn't "pushing" this, he is only assigining the drafted bills to comittee for discussion as he is required with all bills. He even says, he is not as passonate about it as others.

Well, I'm glad they hoped. We see that worked out real well. To the point, it doesn't change the fact that it's too late to do anything about it now.

The reality is that, when it actually mattered, the politicians did not want to touch this issue.

[MoreSiouxForYou]

Well, I'm glad they hoped. We see that worked out real well. To the point, it doesn't change the fact that it's too late to do anything about it now.

The reality is that, when it actually mattered, the politicians did not want to touch this issue.

I don't disagree. and now because of all the problems this would cause they have a reason to make an effort at it, and have an excuse for failiure.

[Sioux-cia]

Jeanotte insults pro-logo supporters when he says,

[mksioux]

Now the story has hit the Star Tribue, with some more information:

Star Tribune

Fargo Rep. Al Carlson's bill says UND and the Board of Higher Education have to stop plans to drop the nickname. It says if the NCAA penalizes UND for refusing to drop the nickname, Attorney General Wayne Stenehjem has to consider filing an antitrust lawsuit against the NCAA.

An antitrust lawsuit has already been brought and settled. The anti-trust claim was dismissed with prejudice (meaning it cannot be brought again). Bringing such a suit now would get thrown out of court immediately and would probably result in sanctions by the court. Under the settlement agreement, the only way UND can bring another suit would be if the NCAA changed the policy after the settlement was entered into.

This bill is a sham. It is designed to make people think they are trying to do something, when in reality they are not doing anything. If the legislature wanted to do something, it needed to happen in the last legislative session. They knew that then and chose not to act. This is just a dog and pony show.

[The Sicatoka]

The anti-trust claim was dismissed with prejudice (meaning it cannot be brought again).

Are you sure? I'm no attorney, but here's what I found on the ND AG's website and it doesn't seem to go quite that far:

However, the State has not, based upon the evidence before the court at this juncture, met its burden of establishing a substantial likelihood of prevailing on the merits of its state antitrust claim against Defendant NCAA. In particular, the State has not presented sufficient evidence to establish that enforcement of the August 2005 policy will result in a reduction of competition of the market in general.

http://www.ag.nd.gov/NCAA/MemorandumDecision&Order-PreliminaryInjunction.pdf (page 19 of 21)

What's really sad is that the judge that wrote that injunction decision threw UND a bone about how to fight and win this on page 13:

As the court stated at the outset of the November 9, 2006 hearing, this litigation will not determine whether UND’s use of Native American imagery and the term “Fighting Sioux” are “hostile and abusive.” That issue implicates the First Amendment, and is not before this court.

[mksioux]

Are you sure? I'm no attorney, but here's what I found on the ND AG's website and it doesn't seem to go quite that far:

http://www.ag.nd.gov/NCAA/MemorandumDecision&Order-PreliminaryInjunction.pdf (page 19 of 21)

What's really sad is that the judge that wrote that injunction decision threw UND a bone about how to fight and win this on page 13:

It was not dismissed by the order on the motion for an injunction, it was dismissed as part of the settlement. See below link.

http://www.ag.nd.gov/NCAA/OrderofJudgmentforDismissal.pdf

[The Sicatoka]

It was not dismissed by the order on the motion for an injunction, it was dismissed as part of the settlement. See below link.

http://www.ag.nd.gov/NCAA/OrderofJudgmentforDismissal.pdf

Well that answers that now doesn't it.

[dakota fairways]

Why can't this be argued on the basis of compelling the NCAA to abide by the wishes of the nearest Sioux tribe, as it did for Florida State Seminoles, Central Michigan Chippewa, Utah Utes and the others? Since the Standing Rock tribe will not allow this to go to the tribal members, why can't the voice of the Spirit Lake tribe be heeded?

[Goon]

Why can't this be argued on the basis of compelling the NCAA to abide by the wishes of the nearest Sioux tribe, as it did for Florida State Seminoles, Central Michigan Chippewa, Utah Utes and the others? Since the Standing Rock tribe will not allow this to go to the tribal members, why can't the voice of the Spirit Lake tribe be heeded?

I think it's worth the fight but a little too late... Where were they when we needed them a few years back...

[82SiouxGuy]

Why can't this be argued on the basis of compelling the NCAA to abide by the wishes of the nearest Sioux tribe, as it did for Florida State Seminoles, Central Michigan Chippewa, Utah Utes and the others? Since the Standing Rock tribe will not allow this to go to the tribal members, why can't the voice of the Spirit Lake tribe be heeded?

Both sides signed the settlement agreement that required both Sioux tribes. That agreement is legally binding. The only way to change that would be for both sides to agree, and the NCAA has no incentive to make that change.

[dakota fairways]

Rep. Dave Monson has a different angle - force the Standing Rock tribe (not tribal leaders) to vote to revoke allowing the use of the nickname. It also says the Spirit Lake Nation must vote to revoke it, but their support is already known.

http://legacy.inforum.com/pdfs/Fighting%20Sioux%20Nickname-Monson%20Jan%202011.pdf

Can this work?

[Fetch]

why stenjem (sp) agreed to both tribes was a major screw up

& someone refresh my memory who were the lawyers who got paid to take this to court ?

[mksioux]

Rep. Dave Monson has a different angle - force the Standing Rock tribe (not tribal leaders) to vote to revoke allowing the use of the nickname. It also says the Spirit Lake Nation must vote to revoke it, but their support is already known.

http://legacy.inforum.com/pdfs/Fighting%20Sioux%20Nickname-Monson%20Jan%202011.pdf

Can this work?

The short answer is no. The settlement is very clear. The settlement is legally binding. The settlement gave UND until November 30, 2010 to get the approval of both tribes, and if they didn't, to being the process of retiring the name. There is no provision in the settlement that allows UND to reinstate plans to retain the nickname if it receives tribal approval after November 30, 2010. UND would need to beg the NCAA to allow that and I can't see any way the NCAA will give an inch more than they legally have to under the settlement agreement.

This latest news is very unfortunate. If these people that are being quoted in these stories had done something in the last legislative session, it may have been the difference. Applying real pressure to Standing Rock to force referendum might have worked. The nickname could have been saved if anyone in a position of power had stepped up and shown real leadership. It's too late now and the nickname is going to be gone. There is no way this bill passes because the consequences would be very detrimental to UND.

Edit: I will say this, for anyone in state government that is serious about this last-ditch effort to save the name, the best thing they could do right now would be to reach out tothe NCAA immediately. Drop the language from the House bill that would direct the AG to consider re-bringing the anti-trust lawsuit (since there is no legal right to do so). The language in the Monson bill is a little better (but still needs work). Be up front about the pending bills and see if the NCAA would be willing to put UND on the namesake exception list if they were to get tribal approval after the deadline in the settlement agreement. I highly doubt the NCAA would be receptive, but if someone in a position of high authority (i.e. the Governor) reached out the NCAA, there is a slight chance it could work. But I highly doubt anyone is thinking that strategically. My guess is this bill is just for show.

[Blackheart]

The short answer is no. The settlement is very clear. The settlement is legally binding. The settlement gave UND until November 30, 2010 to get the approval of both tribes, and if they didn't, to being the process of retiring the name. There is no provision in the settlement that allows UND to reinstate plans to retain the nickname if it receives tribal approval after November 30, 2010. UND would need to beg the NCAA to allow that and I can't see any way the NCAA will give an inch more than they legally have to under the settlement agreement.

This latest news is very unfortunate. If these people that are being quoted in these stories had done something in the last legislative session, it may have been the difference. Applying real pressure to Standing Rock to force referendum might have worked. The nickname could have been saved if anyone in a position of power had stepped up and shown real leadership. It's too late now and the nickname is going to be gone. There is no way this bill passes because the consequences would be very detrimental to UND.

Edit: I will say this, for anyone in state government that is serious about this last-ditch effort to save the name, the best thing they could do right now would be to reach out tothe NCAA immediately. Drop the language from the House bill that would direct the AG to consider re-bringing the anti-trust lawsuit (since there is no legal right to do so). The language in the Monson bill is a little better (but still needs work). Be up front about the pending bills and see if the NCAA would be willing to put UND on the namesake exception list if they were to get tribal approval after the deadline in the settlement agreement. I highly doubt the NCAA would be receptive, but if someone in a position of high authority (i.e. the Governor) reached out the NCAA, there is a slight chance it could work. But I highly doubt anyone is thinking that strategically. My guess is this bill is just for show.

Point, set, and match.