UND doesn’t have a female head coach now

[stoneySIOUX]

1 minute ago, jdub27 said:

The whole point of his article was one big comparison to Division 1 schools. Why be lazy and not show where UND's peers are at to add some context since he took the time to write the article? He looked through all the schools, so it isn't like he didn't have the data.

Right, and he made the comparison. To me, the context is UND in comparison to the NCAA and not UND's peers. I guess I don't see it as lazy. 

[stoneySIOUX]

3 minutes ago, Siouxperfan7 said:

Right, but by leaving out that information the reader would assume that this is only a UND problem when in fact it is a nationwide problem.  I get the exclusive factor of having no female head coaches is the hook of the article.  But this problem is an issue across the country, including the other 3 Dakota schools.  Is Matt Larsen aware of the lack of female coaches at NDSU?  

The paper serves Grand Forks and its communities. Not Fargo or Brookings or Vermillion. I do agree that it provides FURTHER context, but the simple point of UND not having a female head coach is made. 

Not sure, you should email him. I'm certainly not going to because I do not give a single Ef lol.

[stoneySIOUX]

6 minutes ago, jdub27 said:

The whole point of his article was one big comparison to Division 1 schools. Why be lazy and not show where UND's peers are at to add some context since he took the time to write the article? He looked through all the schools, so it isn't like he didn't have the data.

Maybe it is just a coincidence, but it seems like there is always information omitted that would add context in the Herald's article lately. And for whatever reason, that information that is omitted seems to shed positive light towards the UND side of whatever point they are trying to make. I'm not saying they are intentionally biased, but it doesn't exactly do them any favors when there is a perceived axe to grind against UND/Kennedy/the athletic department.

This is fair. Maybe we've all got a case of paranoia, a bit. 

[Oxbow6]

Maybe McGarry golfs and MK could hire her.  I have no doubt she'd love to work for him!

[Siouxperfan7]

2 minutes ago, stoneySIOUX said:

The paper serves Grand Forks and it's communities. I do agree that it provides FURTHER context, but the simple point of UND not having a female head coach is made. 

Not sure, you should email him. I'm certainly not going to because I do not give a single Ef lol.

Welcome to media in today's society.  It's not about reporting the news.  It's about creating a narrative and expressing the opinion of the writer of the article.  It's not like this is something new.  Certainly not at the Herald, and certainly not with Schlossman.  Look at his reporting on the womens hockey story last year.  

[stoneySIOUX]

3 minutes ago, Siouxperfan7 said:

Welcome to media in today's society.  It's not about reporting the news.  It's about creating a narrative and expressing the opinion of the writer of the article.  It's not like this is something new.  Certainly not at the Herald, and certainly not with Schlossman.  Look at his reporting on the womens hockey story last year.  

I feel like your point is a bit short-sided, but I get it completely. The news is UND has no female HCs. That news is reported. The context of UND vs. all of NCAA seems much more prevalent, to me, particularly since UND is 1 of 2 without one. Not how I feel about the media, but to each, their own my friend. 

Again, I've spent too many typestrokes on this, already haha. I literally DO NOT care that UND does not have a female HC lol.

[NoiseInsideMyHead]

19 minutes ago, stoneySIOUX said:

Right, and he made the comparison. To me, the context is UND in comparison to the NCAA and not UND's peers. I guess I don't see it as lazy. 

Yet, if the distribution among D1 schools happens to show a significant number with say, 1 or 2, the statistical relevance of having zero is far less than if the data shows otherwise.

It's a sensational headline, to be sure, and the writer/editor should at least be asking themselves whether more information would help the reader.  That's responsible journalism.

[stoneySIOUX]

2 minutes ago, NoiseInsideMyHead said:

Yet, if the distribution among D1 schools happens to show a significant number with say, 1 or 2, the statistical relevance of having zero is far less than if the data shows otherwise.

It's a sensational headline, to be sure, and the writer/editor should at least be asking themselves whether more information would help the reader.  That's responsible journalism.

New AD Chaves aware of UND's lack of female coaches

That does not seem sensational to me, whatsoever. It seems incredibly accurate in the story as it became more about Chaves' response. Or, are you referring to the "headline" as "UND is 1 of 2 schools in the NCAA with no female HCs"? 

I don't see what additional context would help with, here. NDSU having 3 female HCs would be considered "not good", I'd guess, but UND is at the bottom. That and how Chaves' plans to address it (again, not that I care hahaha), is the story. We're all picking on something kind of silly here, I think.

[NoiseInsideMyHead]

26 minutes ago, stoneySIOUX said:

New AD Chaves aware of UND's lack of female coaches

That does not seem sensational to me, whatsoever. It seems incredibly accurate in the story as it became more about Chaves' response. Or, are you referring to the "headline" as "UND is 1 of 2 schools in the NCAA with no female HCs"? 

I don't see what additional context would help with, here. NDSU having 3 female HCs would be considered "not good", I'd guess, but UND is at the bottom. That and how Chaves' plans to address it (again, not that I care hahaha), is the story. We're all picking on something kind of silly here, I think.

Whether it was a tweet or a headline is a meaningless semantic point. The inference is clearly that UND as an institution undervalues female coaching candidates, which may or may not be true. But the click-bait statistic without more information could be perceived as irresponsible.

The wholly false premise is that there is a 'right' number of female head coaches. A close second is that zero female head coaches is per se bad or evidence of discrimination.

[stoneySIOUX]

1 hour ago, NoiseInsideMyHead said:

Whether it was a tweet or a headline is a meaningless semantic point. The inference is clearly that UND as an institution undervalues female coaching candidates, which may or may not be true. But the click-bait statistic without more information could be perceived as irresponsible.

The wholly false premise is that there is a 'right' number of female head coaches. A close second is that zero female head coaches is per se bad or evidence of discrimination.

Um, ok. Well, no, it's not meaningless. Because the line at the very top of the story, the part bolded and larger font, is the definition of a headline, which is why I asked you to clarify. Now that you have, I can understand what you were saying. I didn't intend anything snarky from this, I just wanted to make sure I understood what you were saying.

It's a pretty good statistic, particularly when you note (or someone did) that 40% is the average. So, I just don't see it as irresponsible. You, like myself, don't think it's a big deal that UND has no female coaches. I see nothing wrong with that. However, it probably shouldn't be ignored that UND has some sort of a perception based on this, now. The Herald reported on that. Pretty simple.

At the end of the day, take whatever you want, I just don't think that Brad nor the Herald did anything nefarious with that story. Like it or not (I frickin' HATE it), this kind of story is a story, these days. 

 

[petey23]

8 hours ago, CMSioux said:

If you are going to create news you gotta dig deeper: how many departments at UND have female chairs? How many administrative offices have female chairs? How many female coaches and department chairs within the entire state University system? 

What about coaches of color? What about LGBTQ coaches? 

 

Maybe our next coaching hire can check 3 or 4 boxes in one hire!

[Hammersmith]

1 hour ago, stoneySIOUX said:

Um, ok. Well, no, it's not meaningless. Because the line at the very top of the story, the part bolded and larger font, is the definition of a headline, which is why I asked you to clarify. Now that you have, I can understand what you were saying. I didn't intend anything snarky from this, I just wanted to make sure I understood what you were saying.

It's a pretty good statistic, particularly when you note (or someone did) that 40% is the average. So, I just don't see it as irresponsible. You, like myself, don't think it's a big deal that UND has no female coaches. I see nothing wrong with that. However, it probably shouldn't be ignored that UND has some sort of a perception based on this, now. The Herald reported on that. Pretty simple.

At the end of the day, take whatever you want, I just don't think that Brad nor the Herald did anything nefarious with that story. Like it or not (I frickin' HATE it), this kind of story is a story, these days. 

 

Just want to point out that it's 40% of women's teams, not 40% overall. So if we assume that virtually 100% of men's teams are coached by males*, and we assume that there are about as many men's teams as women's teams**, then we're actually looking at roughly 80% male head coaches and 20% female head coaches overall. That much disparity suggests a problem somewhere in the system. Not enough women getting into coaching? Women getting overlooked in hiring? Women getting glass ceilinged out of the head coaching jobs? Too many men getting into coaching for the number of men's jobs available?

Personally, I suspect it's a combination of all of those. There's a surplus of men in coaching. Most of the hiring is done by male athletic directors. You get hired in coaching due to who you know. You hire based on what you think are the most important factors, which may or may not be accurate. So an athletic director(who is probably male) is going to hire someone with the same viewpoint(which is more likely to be someone of the same gender) and is first going to look at people they know(which are likely to be dominated by the same gender). Male + male + male doesn't leave many jobs for women.

 

Full disclosure so certain poster here doesn't get their shorts in a bunch: NDSU has had its share of these problems itself. I think the women's golf coach has regularly flipped between genders because it wasn't/isn't a full-time position, but I could be wrong. Lynn Dorn really wanted a female soccer head coach(that was a big reason for the contract dispute that resulted in the previous coach leaving), but when the applicants came in, they were forced to hire another male. Gender was also a reason why Hinterstocker(VB) was let go so quickly and why the next two VB coaches have been women. It's also a reason why the WBB coaches have had long leashes(terribly inappropriate imagery to use there, but that's the saying). NDSU would have a female softball coach if Dorn had her way, but his success has been so great that you can't let him go if he doesn't want to leave. And T&F/CC is such a combined group of coaches that the women's head coach is more or less just a title and not so much of a job.

 

*I believe that there are one or two men's teams with female coaches in DI, but the number is so small to make no statistical difference for this post.

**Don't know how accurate this is, but it's probably actually something like 55/45 women's. Again, not enough to make a difference in this rough case.

 

[stoneySIOUX]

16 minutes ago, Hammersmith said:

Just want to point out that it's 40% of women's teams, not 40% overall. So if we assume that virtually 100% of men's teams are coached by males*, and we assume that there are about as many men's teams as women's teams**, then we're actually looking at roughly 80% male head coaches and 20% female head coaches overall. That much disparity suggests a problem somewhere in the system. Not enough women getting into coaching? Women getting overlooked in hiring? Women getting glass ceilinged out of the head coaching jobs? Too many men getting into coaching for the number of men's jobs available?

Personally, I suspect it's a combination of all of those. There's a surplus of men in coaching. Most of the hiring is done by male athletic directors. You get hired in coaching due to who you know. You hire based on what you think are the most important factors, which may or may not be accurate. So an athletic director(who is probably male) is going to hire someone with the same viewpoint(which is more likely to be someone of the same gender) and is first going to look at people they know(which are likely to be dominated by the same gender). Male + male + male doesn't leave many jobs for women.

 

Full disclosure so certain poster here doesn't get their shorts in a bunch: NDSU has had its share of these problems itself. I think the women's golf coach has regularly flipped between genders because it wasn't/isn't a full-time position, but I could be wrong. Lynn Dorn really wanted a female soccer head coach(that was a big reason for the contract dispute that resulted in the previous coach leaving), but when the applicants came in, they were forced to hire another male. Gender was also a reason why Hinterstocker(VB) was let go so quickly and why the next two VB coaches have been women. It's also a reason why the WBB coaches have had long leashes(terribly inappropriate imagery to use there, but that's the saying). NDSU would have a female softball coach if Dorn had her way, but his success has been so great that you can't let him go if he doesn't want to leave. And T&F/CC is such a combined group of coaches that the women's head coach is more or less just a title and not so much of a job.

 

*I believe that there are one or two men's teams with female coaches in DI, but the number is so small to make no statistical difference for this post.

**Don't know how accurate this is, but it's probably actually something like 55/45 women's. Again, not enough to make a difference in this rough case.

 

Tl;dr sorry.

[NoiseInsideMyHead]

20 minutes ago, stoneySIOUX said:

Tl;dr sorry.

You're an ass.

[stoneySIOUX]

1 hour ago, NoiseInsideMyHead said:

You're an ass.

Lol it was a joke, good lord. Sorry, buddy. Lighten up. Didn't think anyone would be able to get butthurt over that. Sheesh. 

[Herd]

7 hours ago, Siouxperfan7 said:

Right, but by leaving out that information the reader would assume that this is only a UND problem when in fact it is a nationwide problem.  I get the exclusive factor of having no female head coaches is the hook of the article.  But this problem is an issue across the country, including the other 3 Dakota schools.  Is Matt Larsen aware of the lack of female coaches at NDSU?  

If UND had 2 female coaches, no article is written. 0 problem, 2 not a problem.

[stoneySIOUX]

27 minutes ago, Herd said:

If UND had 2 female coaches, no article is written. 0 problem, 2 not a problem.

I contest it's still not a "problem", but I agree with you, here. It's only written because UND doesn't have a female HC. Simple as that.

[SiouxVolley]

The interim AD at Pine Bluff is female.  Puts a whole different spin on the story.

https://uapblionsroar.com/staff.aspx?staff=101

[70'sguy]

On 6/3/2018 at 7:51 PM, WiSioux said:

As a female I find these types of articles offensive. I want the best coach available no matter the gender.

I work for the federal government, I already see enough hiring to meet quotas. It doesn't result in the best employees being hired. Go based off qualifications and potential, not gender, age, race, income, etc

An excellent statement.

[NoiseInsideMyHead]

Funny thing about Schlossman...he's clearly able to put numbers in context when he wants to.

http://www.grandforksherald.com/sports/hockey/4455842-schlossman-jbd-tops-all-players-nhl-combine-pullups

Quote

Of the nearly 100 players at the event, Bernard-Docker was the only one able to do 15 pullups.

Two players did 14. At least seven players did 13 pullups.

What would have been hard about doing the same thing with female coaches at D1 schools?  Yes, two have zero, but how many have one, or two?

[stoneySIOUX]

11 minutes ago, NoiseInsideMyHead said:

Funny thing about Schlossman...he's clearly able to put numbers in context when he wants to.

http://www.grandforksherald.com/sports/hockey/4455842-schlossman-jbd-tops-all-players-nhl-combine-pullups

What would have been hard about doing the same thing with female coaches at D1 schools?  Yes, two have zero, but how many have one, or two?

He's got an email address at the bottom of all of his stories. I believe a direct line, too. You should reach out.

[Siouxperfan7]

32 minutes ago, NoiseInsideMyHead said:

Funny thing about Schlossman...he's clearly able to put numbers in context when he wants to.

http://www.grandforksherald.com/sports/hockey/4455842-schlossman-jbd-tops-all-players-nhl-combine-pullups

What would have been hard about doing the same thing with female coaches at D1 schools?  Yes, two have zero, but how many have one, or two?

An easy google search would have gotten relevant information that would have added important context to the article.

https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1GCEA_enUS781US781&ei=zZ4WW4TXJsbWsAHtjaWQDA&q=female+head+coaches+college+athletics&oq=female+head+coaches+college+athletics&gs_l=psy-ab.3..33i21k1.4594.7122.0.7225.17.10.0.0.0.0.430.1470.2-3j1j1.5.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..12.5.1470...0i22i30k1j33i22i29i30k1j33i160k1.0.avB8bdzb2sU

But I am glad he got the exact number of pullups Bernard-Docker was able to do!!  That number was definitely more important to get! 

 

 

[jdub27]

Unless there is some sort of agenda to push, I don't see why this whole thing is newsworthy until UND actually hires its new women's golf coach. If the best candidate is a male, then yes, it might be newsworthy. But if they hire a female (which this article has made all but a foregone conclusion), then I don't get what the point of him writing the article was unless its something they've been sitting on and figured they finally had a window to publish it and needed to make sure they got it in before the new hire is made.

[The Sicatoka]

11 hours ago, Herd said:

If UND had 2 female coaches, no article is written. 0 problem, 2 not a problem.

You could change that 2 to a 1 and still be correct based on transpired events. 

[stoneySIOUX]

44 minutes ago, jdub27 said:

Unless there is some sort of agenda to push, I don't see why this whole thing is newsworthy until UND actually hires its new women's golf coach. If the best candidate is a male, then yes, it might be newsworthy. But if they hire a female (which this article has made all but a foregone conclusion), then I don't get what the point of him writing the article was unless its something they've been sitting on and figured they finally had a window to publish it and needed to make sure they got it in before the new hire is made.

It's only newsworthy because of the political climate we live in. It's absolutely a story, regardless of how we feel about it.