The Great Debate: CHL vs NCAA

[Benny Baker]

3 hours ago, KTF said:

The assertion made was that London's top line was a cut below that of NoDaks but the best two London players, when placed together with the two best NoDak ones, proved to be better.

Riiiight.  This explanation makes even less sense.  So now you're trying to claim that London's top line is better than UND's top line simply based on the fact that 2/3 of London's top line played on two separate lines apart from 2/3 of UND's top line during a bronze medal game in an international tournament.

That would be like me trying to argue that Nick Schmaltz is better than Christian Dvorak because, in that same bronze medal game, Schmaltz had more points (3) than Dvorak.

 

[AlphaMikeFoxtrot]

Chill out folks. I don't care for mj but at least it's hockey.  The only mj fans I can't stand are those asserting its superiority to ncaa (the opposite of y'all) or the cathartic "here for the fights" types.  Every mj game I've attended I noticed ncaa jerseys in the crowd. 

Let's not forget how awful of an organization the ncaa is. Having an alternative is a good thing compared to the monopoly it has on football and basketball. CHL will never force teams to change their names because of a political agenda.

[geaux_sioux]

I think we should have a series each year with a top CHL team. It'd be a nice measuring stick for prospects and good for bragging rights. Obviously it would be against the London Knightsbsince they're trash but probably against a more classy orginization like the Brandon Wheatkings.

[stoneySIOUX]

3 hours ago, KTF said:

Ahh thanks hon...

If you're going to be annoying, long-winded and highly questionable, might as well be cute, right?

Well, that's my formula, I guess

[Benny Baker]

16 hours ago, KTF said:

...except that this U.S. U-20 team featured two of the best forwards from NoDak who shockingly were behind the depth chart of the top two players from London. How is that possible?!?!?!? 

Link to the Bronze medal line up http://www.worldjunior2016.com/en/games/2016-01-05/SWE-vs-USA/#lineup-tab

Umm clearly London's top line would do as much and probably more damage then NoDak's top line did in the NCAA

Hey, did you guys all know that Chris Kunitz started at LW in the 2014 Olympic gold medal game over Jamie Benn (second line) and Patrick Marleau (third line)!!!!!  How is that possible?!?!?!?  Chris Kunitz just must be better than Jamie Benn and Patrick Marleau as a matter of fact. 

#MJlogic

[scpa0305]

12 hours ago, KTF said:

I understand I will never convince any NoDak fan otherwise, but I will correct the many misconceptions college hockey fans have of the CHL, the first being that the league is comprised of mainly a single talented but very young line of 16/17 year olds and a bunch of weak 17 and 18 year old players rounding out the other lines..nothing can be further than the truth and while you may never believe that London would beat NoDak, you at least have to concede that London is a very deep and talented team that would be among the best NCAA D-1 teams. 

I agree with you on that point only.  They are very deep.  We are talking about two completely different leagues.  The OHL can have only 2 20 year olds whereas the NCAA has many 20 year old freshman.  It's not a great comparison.  Again, no one is arguing against the CHL leagues being great development leagues.

[KTF]

6 hours ago, Benny Baker said:

Riiiight.  This explanation makes even less sense.  So now you're trying to claim that London's top line is better than UND's top line simply based on the fact that 2/3 of London's top line played on two separate lines apart from 2/3 of UND's top line during a bronze medal game in an international tournament.

That would be like me trying to argue that Nick Schmaltz is better than Christian Dvorak because, in that same bronze medal game, Schmaltz had more points (3) than Dvorak.

 

Fact is that Mathew Tkachuk was tied with Auston Mathews as the leading point getter on the team and Dvorak was the teams second line center and had more than double the points of Boeser while Schmaltz  centered the third line...small sample size but what evidence do you have that would suggest that NoDak's top line is better...let me know when the crickets stop chirping.

[The Sicatoka]

We talking lines, teams, or CHL v NCAA?

If we are talking teams, UND wouldn't have put CBS out against London's top line. London's top line would have seen a whole bunch of UND's Heavy Line. The Heavy Line shut down Michigan's CCM line and everyone else they were matched against. 

[KTF]

15 hours ago, yzerman19 said:

The bigger deal with getting paid in the CHL is signing your NHL contract at 18 and collecting your signing bonus.

I watched a lot of WHL this year, and its great hockey.  No doubt about it.  

The CHL usually draws the most gifted offensive talent, and they can display it in the style of game that is more like that played in the NHL.

CHL players are not paid to play. They receive a monthly stipend to offset living expenses in much the same way college athletes now receive cost of attendance subsidies.

Sorry for high jacking your thread, but it always made me laugh the way many college fans, who for the most part are completely unfamiliar with the level of play in the CHL dismiss the league as being second rate.

In terms of development, it is hard to argue against the CHL route but there are many players who would be better served going through the college route. The fact is, that if you are an elite prospect that is almost guaranteed to have a NHL career then the CHL is the preferred option, now that doesn't mean its the only option however. If you are a border line NHL prospect then the NCAA offers you more advantages, with the greatest being the time it allows you to develop. You can enter college at 18, 19 or even 20 and give yourself a full four years to strengthen your body and hone your skills and then hit the pros as a very mature and well rounded 23-24 year old.

I happen to know more than a few agents from various agencies and that is generally the advise they give. The high end prospects are steered toward the CHL while the rest are told the merits of the D-1 route. Now of course many elite prospects will take the NCAA way while many marginal ones will go on the CHL path but by and large that is the way it is increasingly playing out over the past decade or so.

[KTF]

2 minutes ago, The Sicatoka said:

We talking lines, teams, or CHL v NCAA?

If we are talking teams, UND wouldn't have put CBS out against London's top line. London's top line would have seen a whole bunch of UND's Heavy Line. The Heavy Line shut down Michigan's CCM line and everyone else they were matched against. 

 

I understand that, and I've already been over the line combinations, my point was and remains (and is quite valid) that London's top line would have been among if not the outright best line in all of NCAA hockey.

[UNDBIZ]

21 minutes ago, KTF said:

Fact is that Mathew Tkachuk was tied with Auston Mathews as the leading point getter on the team and Dvorak was the teams second line center and had more than double the points of Boeser while Schmaltz  centered the third line...small sample size but what evidence do you have that would suggest that NoDak's top line is better...let me know when the crickets stop chirping.

You seem to be forgetting someone.

http://www.uscho.com/frozen-four/2016/04/09/most-outstanding-player-caggiula-has-been-just-that-all-season-for-north-dakota/

Quote

When Drake Caggiula scored twice in the Frozen Four semifinal contest and then added another two in the championship game to earn Most Outstanding Player honors, it should have come as no surprise to anyone. The North Dakota senior has been doing it all season long.

CHL is garbage.  Good place for prima donna teenagers to inflate their offensive stats and avoid an education.  UND would slaughter London 10-0 while resting the top 2 lines for the game.

#ButtOurTopLine

[Cratter]

Michigans top line is better than Londons.

 

[brianvf]

46 minutes ago, KTF said:

Fact is that Mathew Tkachuk was tied with Auston Mathews as the leading point getter on the team and Dvorak was the teams second line center and had more than double the points of Boeser while Schmaltz  centered the third line.

And yet Schmaltz finished the tourney tied with Dvorak in points...despite his playing the 3rd line while Dvorak was on the 2nd.
Boeser and Schmaltz were paired together at the WJC because of their chemistry on the same line at UND.  The order of the lines means nothing.  If it did, then how the heck did lowly Schmaltz manage to tie mighty Dvorak in points?  Must have been luck.

[KTF]

17 minutes ago, brianvf said:

And yet Schmaltz finished the tourney tied with Dvorak in points...despite his playing the 3rd line while Dvorak was on the 2nd.
Boeser and Schmaltz were paired together at the WJC because of their chemistry on the same line at UND.  The order of the lines means nothing.  If it did, then how the heck did lowly Schmaltz manage to tie mighty Dvorak in points?  Must have been luck.

Fact, Dvorak centered the 2nd line while Schmalts centered the third...Fact, Tkachuk was on the first line. If it was only about chemistry then why were two players that were part of the best line in college hockey on the third line and why did Tkachuck finish with a point total that equaled that of Schmatz and Boeser combined??

Spin it how you want but when the two best players on NoDak played with the two best players from London, the NoDak players were second fiddle..

[UNDBIZ]

Good thing Ron Wilson is such a good coach.  I would never doubt this man's choice of line combos.

http://thehockeywriters.com/ron-wilson-says-he-didnt-research-team-russia/

CHL is garbage. UND's 4th line would've beat the @&% out of little chuk and sent him home crying to his mommy.

[SiouxFanatic]

I find it humorous that there's a CHL defender of the faith poster debating CHL vs. NCAA when there's a discussion on HFBoards about CHL vs. CIS where Canadian posters are saying CIS is better hockey than CHL! 

CHL is a great alternative for development but when it comes to the level of play, NCAA will be better overall but it's unfair to even compare the two considering the age gap being a huge factor alone.

[scpa0305]

1 hour ago, KTF said:

Fact is that Mathew Tkachuk was tied with Auston Mathews as the leading point getter on the team and Dvorak was the teams second line center and had more than double the points of Boeser while Schmaltz  centered the third line...small sample size but what evidence do you have that would suggest that NoDak's top line is better...let me know when the crickets stop chirping.

what? Schmaltz had just as many pts as Dvorak....while barely getting pp time. Which was odd because he wad arguably the second best pp player on the team, that's on the coach (who clearly sucked at coaching this level).

 

again you are completely ignoring the point were trying to make, that und had much greater (older) depth.

what did marner do doing the wjc? He definitely didn't light the world on fire and he wad getting top pp time.

[KTF]

5 minutes ago, scpa0305 said:

what? Schmaltz had just as many pts as Dvorak....while barely getting pp time. Which was odd because he wad arguably the second best pp player on the team, that's on the coach (who clearly sucked at coaching this level).

 

again you are completely ignoring the point were trying to make, that und had much greater (older) depth.

what did marner do doing the wjc? He definitely didn't light the world on fire and he wad getting top pp time.

Dvorak earned PP time, Schmaltz did not..Marner did much better than Boeser and had the same PPG as Schmaltz...

UND is older but I've proven that age isn't anything and for the upteenth time show me this better depth!

[Cratter]

London could go toe to toe with the Gophers. 

[KTF]

13 minutes ago, SiouxFanatic said:

I find it humorous that there's a CHL defender of the faith poster debating CHL vs. NCAA when there's a discussion on HFBoards about CHL vs. CIS where Canadian posters are saying CIS is better hockey than CHL! 

CHL is a great alternative for development but when it comes to the level of play, NCAA will be better overall but it's unfair to even compare the two considering the age gap being a huge factor alone.

Hmmm, the best CIS players squared off against a portion of the better CHL players in a pre exhibtion WJC tune up for the Canadian World Junior team. Now keep in mind that the best Canadian CHLers sat out the games because their spot on the team was assured and that many top American, Russian, Swede and Czech CHLers were of course not there. The CIS all star team was of course several years older and in fact many of them were ex CHL players and were from teams like UNB, Alberta and the like that generally do well against NCAA competition. So the best from the CIS faced off against the not so best from the CHL and according to these so called sages from HFBoards, the CIS should of mopped the floor with the much younger and smaller CHL players right.? Well not exactly, the first game ended in a tie but the CIS did win in a shoot out. The CHL  players then blew the door off the older, supposedly stronger and more experienced CIS players 5-0 the next game.

So much for the CIS being better...imagine if the CHL actually had all their best players playing...

[The Sicatoka]

1 minute ago, Cratter said:

London could go toe to toe with the Gophers. 

2016 Red River could go toe to toe with the Gophers. 

[Cratter]

1 minute ago, The Sicatoka said:

2016 Red River could go toe to toe with the Gophers. 

Exactly the point. 

[scpa0305]

1 hour ago, KTF said:

Dvorak earned PP time, Schmaltz did not..Marner did much better than Boeser and had the same PPG as Schmaltz...

UND is older but I've proven that age isn't anything and for the upteenth time show me this better depth!

wowzers

[brianvf]

1 hour ago, KTF said:

Hmmm, the best CIS players squared off against a portion of the better CHL players in a pre exhibtion WJC tune up for the Canadian World Junior team. Now keep in mind that the best Canadian CHLers sat out the games because their spot on the team was assured and that many top American, Russian, Swede and Czech CHLers were of course not there. The CIS all star team was of course several years older and in fact many of them were ex CHL players and were from teams like UNB, Alberta and the like that generally do well against NCAA competition. So the best from the CIS faced off against the not so best from the CHL and according to these so called sages from HFBoards, the CIS should of mopped the floor with the much younger and smaller CHL players right.? Well not exactly, the first game ended in a tie but the CIS did win in a shoot out. The CHL  players then blew the door off the older, supposedly stronger and more experienced CIS players 5-0 the next game.

So much for the CIS being better...imagine if the CHL actually had all their best players playing...

This all sounds eerily similar to the NCAA vs NTDP exhibition games that you were saying college programs "give it their best" for despite sitting top players and playing backup goalies. 

Quote

 

Fact, Dvorak centered the 2nd line while Schmalts centered the third...Fact, Tkachuk was on the first line. If it was only about chemistry then why were two players that were part of the best line in college hockey on the third line and why did Tkachuck finish with a point total that equaled that of Schmatz and Boeser combined??

Spin it how you want but when the two best players on NoDak played with the two best players from London, the NoDak players were second fiddle..

 

Fact: Yet despite Schmaltz being on a "lower" line, he still tied the all-powerful Dvorak in points.
Fact: Tkachuk's point total had more to do with Matthews than anything. 

Spin it how you want man, but UND still beats London in a 7 game series.  Fact. 

[geaux_sioux]

Whatever happened to Tambolini? Didn't he dominate here and then go to mj and get dominated by the superior the skill being played by 1st rounder after 1st rounder on a nightly basis?