The New Nickname vs. No Nickname Debate Thread

[jdub27]

While no more scientific than anything a newspaper runs, very interesting to see that "no nickname" is in fact not the overwhelming favorite in the two most recent SiouxSports polls and in fact is behind Roughriders in both polls.  Can I now use those numbers and claim the overwhelming majority wants Roughriders or how does that work?

[fightingsioux4life]

Lol, look at the vote numbers...its a majority.

You obviously don't understand the difference between a public message board and a scientific survey.   The former is not an accurate measure of public opinion, while the latter usually is.

[Chewey]

Source with the sales numbers? 

The point is that for some time many have claimed that sales of "North Dakota", "ND" materials have been down and offer that as a justification for adopting a new nickname.  Sales of "Fighting Sioux" materials have been made during that time.  The initial claim then must be viewed in that light.

[Siouxperfan7]

The point is that for some time many have claimed that sales of "North Dakota", "ND" materials have been down and offer that as a justification for adopting a new nickname.  Sales of "Fighting Sioux" materials have been made during that time.  The initial claim then must be viewed in that light.

 

I think the point that is being made is sales of "UND Roughrider" (for example) merchandise will be greater than the current "North Dakota, with interlocking ND" merchandise.  Not the only reason to select a new nickname over having nothing, but must be taken into consideration.

[Chewey]

You say that "no policy against offensive nickanmes and logos being violated". Are you sure, or is this more hyper-confident bluster (ala the Spirit Lake suit)? I ask this because the agreement is a contract.

 

Is one side choosing to not enforce the contract at this time? That is the right of a party to a contract. 

 

For example, paying your rent is a contract. If you're late or miss a month your landlord can choose to give you some slack (goodwill on the landlord's part) or drop the hammer on you. Can we say definitively at this point that "no policy ... being violated" or are we running on the goodwill of the NCAA* (to allow this process to play out)? 

 

You say one side is using "scare tactics". Dare I say you're providing facts that are not in evidence at this time (because we don't know if the NCAA sees us as in violation but is cutting slack for the process, and we don't know if "no nickname" is acceptable under the settlement in their eyes). 

 

 

*I can't believe I just typed that phrase. 

Is there anything explicitly saying that "North Dakota" violates something that the surrender agreement addresses?  The contract makes reference to having a NA nickname that violates the policy or transitioning to something that does not violate the NA policy.  What purpose would Kelley and Karl have in coming out and saying that "North Dakota" is an option?  How would the committee and Kelley look if Kelley were to come out and say that "North Dakota" is not an option and then have to reverse course?  This would be extremely irresponsible and it would make the process look a lot worse than it already does.  Kelley probably checked with the school's lawyers and he probably checked with the NCAA itself before making any statement or allowing any statements to be made by any third party.  Irrespective of what's been said about the committee and Kelley, they are not using hyperbole and misinformation to sway people on this and I think they should be viewed in more positive light.  They're essentially saying that "North Dakota" is an option and addressing the issue directly, as I see it.  Acknowledging this lends credence to the claim that they want to address the nickname issue honestly, transparently and openly.  I give them a lot of credit for this.   If they truly want to honor the history and traditions of the Sioux people, as was said before, choosing "North Dakota" does just that. 

[The Sicatoka]

We have far more "we don't know" or "we can assume" than we have "we know". 

 

• Is the NCAA cutting us a break to allow the process to play out without them enforcing the settlement agreement contract?
• How does the NCAA view the phrase "... to a new nickname and logo ..." with regard to no nickname? 

 

What I do know: Choosing a new nickname and logo that is not "no nickname" and that is not "race, ethnicity, or national origin based" closes the issue. 

[darell1976]

What I do know: Choosing a new nickname and logo that is not "no nickname" and that is not "race, ethnicity, or national origin based" closes the issue.

Which is why I hope we pick an actual nickname.

[Chewey]

We have far more "we don't know" or "we can assume" than we have "we know". 

 

• Is the NCAA cutting us a break to allow the process to play out without them enforcing the settlement agreement contract?
• How does the NCAA view the phrase "... to a new nickname and logo ..." with regard to no nickname? 

 

What I do know: Choosing a new nickname and logo that is not "no nickname" and that is not "race, ethnicity, or national origin based" closes the issue. 

As to your points, we do know that Kelley has come out and said that "North Dakota" is an option, we do know that Kelley would not say that if it wasn't an option (he is an educated person, after all), we do know that the NCAA has not contradicted Kelley as to public statements regarding the no nickname option.  These are facts; it is not assuming anything at all. What you claim we don't know about the NCAA has been answered by what Kelley has publicly stated and by what the NCAA has not done.

[The Sicatoka]

Do we know Kelley has contacted the NCAA and confirmed it? It wouldn't be the first time an academic misspoke or assumed themselves to be correct. (Suddenly you're believing Kelley, and I'm not; interesting role reversal. )

 

Do we know the NCAA would inject itself into the process? Or would they rather watch it play out and then execute as they see fit. They like the "final judge (jury, and executioner) role" and don't want to be seen as meddling (any further) as that would contradict their prior statement, "Colleges and universities may adopt any mascot that they wish, as that is an institutional matter*." That comes back around to the settlement agreement, namely: Does the NCAA see "no" nickname as a "new" nickname. 

 

And yes, I want to hear it from the NCAA and them only, as they are the final judge (jury, and executioner). 

 

 

*Source: http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/PressArchive/2005/Announcements/NCAA%2BExecutive%2BCommittee%2BIssues%2BGuidelines%2Bfor%2BUse%2Bof%2BNative%2BAmerican%2BMascots%2Bat%2BChampionship%2BEvents.html

[NoiseInsideMyHead]

• Is the NCAA cutting us a break to allow the process to play out without them enforcing the settlement agreement contract?
• How does the NCAA view the phrase "... to a new nickname and logo ..." with regard to no nickname?

 

Even if we concede that there has been a breach of contract, there are no damages.  An order compelling UND to select a nickname seems remote.  More like nominal damages and a subtle jab at the NCAA in the entry of judgment to give it up.

 

UND has a serious case of battered spouse syndrome when it comes to the NCAA.  Maybe that's the real reason CVIC opened up shop on campus.

 

Are people afraid of the outcome…or the fight?

[The Sicatoka]

Even if we concede that there has been a breach of contract, there are no damages.  

 

Yes there is: Back on the sanctions list. 

[The Sicatoka]

Are people afraid of the outcome…or the fight?

 

Fight's over. All that's left is settling up accounts. Don't welsh on bets or debts. 

[Chewey]

Do we know Kelley has contacted the NCAA and confirmed it? It wouldn't be the first time an academic misspoke or assumed themselves to be correct. (Suddenly you're believing Kelley, and I'm not; interesting role reversal. )

 

Do we know the NCAA would inject itself into the process? Or would they rather watch it play out and then execute as they see fit. They like the "final judge (jury, and executioner) role" and don't want to be seen as meddling (any further) as that would contradict their prior statement, "Colleges and universities may adopt any mascot that they wish, as that is an institutional matter*." That comes back around to the settlement agreement, namely: Does the NCAA see "no" nickname as a "new" nickname. 

 

And yes, I want to hear it from the NCAA and them only, as they are the final judge (jury, and executioner). 

 

 

*Source: http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/PressArchive/2005/Announcements/NCAA%2BExecutive%2BCommittee%2BIssues%2BGuidelines%2Bfor%2BUse%2Bof%2BNative%2BAmerican%2BMascots%2Bat%2BChampionship%2BEvents.html

 I think the NCAA has already spoken.  Namely, this issue was festering prior to the execution of the amendment to the surrender agreement regarding the imagery at the Ralph in September, 2012.  The NCAA could have included a provision clarifying the matter and did not do so.  If Kelley and Karl misspoke about the no nickname option, how quickly do you think Leigh Jeanotte and Erich Longie would have picked up the "bat phone" to the NCAA to complain?  How quickly do you think other PC zealots on campus would have crawled over each other to confront them and contradict such statements publicly? 

[The Sicatoka]

The PC crew? They got Kelley to kowtow and put their man Leander "Russ" MacDonald on the committee.

 

Ol' Russ will "fix" this is my expectation. Someone will have to take the public/media/PR hit when the "no nickname" option is killed off. If Russ does it keeps Kelley's and Karl's hands clean and raises Russ up further in the eyes of the PC crew. 

[NoiseInsideMyHead]

Yes there is: Back on the sanctions list. 

 

Here we go again…no nickname = no violation = no sanctions.

 

And by "damages," I am referring to the NCAA.  A breach of contract case requires the establishment of a contract, a breach, and harm.  The NCAA has not been harmed.  There is no economic incentive for the NCAA to bring the lawsuit.

[Hayduke]

Considering they don't sell the Sioux logo hardly anywhere now, it is not true that sales were sky high. Also, I assume that UND wants to make money in the future, correct? Sioux logo won't be available in the future so it might be hard to make money off of it.

I have a nice shortsleeve windbreaker top from CSU that is brand new with tags but never had CSU Rams logos embroidered on it. Kelly green. Luckily, I was able to order a Fighting Sioux logo on Ebay to put on it.

My point?

Without a nickname, this is your future, folks...

[NoiseInsideMyHead]

I have a nice shortsleeve windbreaker top from CSU that is brand new with tags but never had CSU Rams logos embroidered on it. Kelly green. Luckily, I was able to order a Fighting Sioux logo on Ebay to put on it.

My point?

Without a nickname, this is your future, folks...

 

The royalty rate on patches will be 99.9%  

[The Sicatoka]

Here we go again…no nickname = no violation = no sanctions.

 

You're assuming "no nickname = no violation". I'm not willing to do that until I have something more than words from non-NCAA people. 

[Hayduke]

The royalty rate on patches will be 99.9%

I would imagine the patches will be the next thing new item to vanish from the retail world.

[NoiseInsideMyHead]

You're assuming "no nickname = no violation". I'm not willing to do that until I have something more than words from non-NCAA people. 

 

The rule is written in plain English, the last time I read it.  What more do you need?

[The Sicatoka]

The rule is written in plain English, the last time I read it.  What more do you need?

 

I see the words "new nickname". I'm not willing to overlook those as others may be. 

 

 

Given the ND Attorney General signed that settlement agreement (and addendum) for the State, shouldn't we be able to ask him what he believes he signed? 

[Cratter]

This thread goes round and round as much as the Fire Hak threads.

[Oxbow6]

The PC crew? They got Kelley to kowtow and put their man Leander "Russ" MacDonald on the committee.

Ol' Russ will "fix" this is my expectation. Someone will have to take the public/media/PR hit when the "no nickname" option is killed off. If Russ does it keeps Kelley's and Karl's hands clean and raises Russ up further in the eyes of the PC crew.

This...^^^

Glad you posted it. Was my belief when I saw who was named to the committee. Kind of like Sesame Street's "Which one of these (things) is not like the others" but actually saying what you posted can get one labeled on this board in unsavory terms.

[Teeder11]

The PC crew? They got Kelley to kowtow and put their man Leander "Russ" MacDonald on the committee.

Ol' Russ will "fix" this is my expectation. Someone will have to take the public/media/PR hit when the "no nickname" option is killed off. If Russ does it keeps Kelley's and Karl's hands clean and raises Russ up further in the eyes of the PC crew.

Totally agree with this, Sic! Russ is the king of the PC Thought Police -- or its most loyal lieutenant.

[The Sicatoka]

I've been told that Ol' Russ has questioned using icons of certain < cough Native cough > religions as mascots also*. And Ol' Russ was on the committee that chose a new university system chancellor just recently. Amazing where this fellow's political point of view spreads around to. An enrolled member at Spirit Lake who's very PC himself (especially on the topic of nicknames) and has a PhD has to be the PC crew's wet dream. 

 

 

*Notice there are no "eagles" in UND's final 15.