Discontinuing the UND Shuttle Service is a HUGE, UNFORGIVABLE MISTAKE

[MafiaMan]

He said that "reasonable parking" was an implied obligation for WHOEVER is selling the ticket. He didn't say college facility. That's why I used 2 professional venues that were close to the Grand Forks area but that I knew had parking issues. I wasn't trying to use comparable arenas in this case. There is ABSOLUTELY NO IMPLIED OBLIGATION FOR REASONABLE PARKING, whatever the hell that even means. The parking situation is very public. If you attend games with any regularity you should know the parking situation. If you don't you aren't paying attention. The building has been open for 12 years. Plenty of parking options have been listed in this thread alone within walking distance.

I agree with you on the 'implied obligation" - I don't believe in that either. However, in order to assist fans and make the game-day experience easier for some folks, one would think a shuttle wouldn't be too much trouble.

I've been to several football games at Michigan Stadium and there are shuttle buses everywhere on game day - and not all of them are bar-related. If you want to be D1, then act like it. Michigan can somehow get 100,000 people into a football stadium with relative ease (Ann Arbor traffic cops are all over directing traffic and two-way streets are made into one-way streets to ease the flow - I've got to assume the cops are rented by U of M since its an event) - I don't see Michigan saying 'we provide the entertainment - how you get into the stadium is your problem and we don't care if it takes you seven hours to get out of Ann Arbor after the game is over.'

[smokey the cat]

Of the venues listed in your argument here, only one is a college facility. A more valid comparison would be Mariucci Arena, Kohl Center, or the Herb Brooks National Hockey Center.

Try finding a place to park anywhere in downtown Madison or around the campus. Students do not even bring cars to Madison because it is so hard to find parking. The neighborhoods around State St. all require neighborhood parking permits or you get tickets. After that it is parking meters they patrol heavily.

[smokey the cat]

He said that "reasonable parking" was an implied obligation for WHOEVER is selling the ticket. He didn't say college facility. That's why I used 2 professional venues that were close to the Grand Forks area but that I knew had parking issues. I wasn't trying to use comparable arenas in this case. There is ABSOLUTELY NO IMPLIED OBLIGATION FOR REASONABLE PARKING, whatever the hell that even means. The parking situation is very public. If you attend games with any regularity you should know the parking situation. If you don't you aren't paying attention. The building has been open for 12 years. Plenty of parking options have been listed in this thread alone within walking distance.

This is the response I received from the city of Grand Forks dealing with the original parking issue with the Ralph.

"The City and The Ralph came to an agreement through the Detailed Development Plan process that parking would be evaluated a bit differently on the project. The parking requirement for an auditorium is one space per 4 seats. The seating capacity is around 11,400. Therefore the parking requirement is 2,850 for the site. The parking on the site, through shared parking with the bookstore, family practice and other commercial uses around the building, nearly exceeds this amount. In addition, the city required a traffic plan to be completed by a transportation consultant. The intent was to verify that the location of the parking and the affect on the traffic operation plan for the site. UND also identified alternative mode parking (bus pickup locations) on designated lots that provided additional parking for the facility."

So when I said they were given an exemption they were and the city did have the power over the university. Notice the part over the bus picking people up. By stopping the bus service it could be construed that the university is now in violation of their agreement.

[82SiouxGuy]

I agree with you on the 'implied obligation" - I don't believe in that either. However, in order to assist fans and make the game-day experience easier for some folks, one would think a shuttle wouldn't be too much trouble.

I've been to several football games at Michigan Stadium and there are shuttle buses everywhere on game day - and not all of them are bar-related. If you want to be D1, then act like it. Michigan can somehow get 100,000 people into a football stadium with relative ease (Ann Arbor traffic cops are all over directing traffic and two-way streets are made into one-way streets to ease the flow - I've got to assume the cops are rented by U of M since its an event) - I don't see Michigan saying 'we provide the entertainment - how you get into the stadium is your problem and we don't care if it takes you seven hours to get out of Ann Arbor after the game is over.'

I have pointed out parking lots within 5 blocks of the doors at REA. They include different types of options. REA has parking people that direct traffic in several different places as people leave the games. Grand Forks police stop traffic on Gateway Drive for people leaving and are used on Columbia Road and University Avenue as needed. The only time it has taken me more than 30 minutes to get home from a game, door to door, was when I got stuck in the parking ramp because of a problem with the exit gates. Between REA, UND and the city of Grand Forks they move traffic quickly to get people out. There is no obligation for anyone to provide a shuttle to the door.

It's interesting that you are comparing parking at REA with one of the largest facilities in the country. It would be hard to have parking within 5 blocks for 100,000 people, so it is a little different situation. REA might do things differently if thousands and thousands of people had to walk so far. But since you brought it up, let's look at Michigan Stadium parking.

All available lots within 5 or 6 blocks of the stadium seem to be permit only. That would be similar to the parking on site at REA. Except that 5 blocks from the door at UND would get you all the way to Tabula (there is enough parking for all patrons at REA within that 5 blocks). So even the elite that are paying big bucks for parking get to walk up to 5 or 6 blocks and more if they want. There are actually permit only lots that are even further than the 5 blocks. They do provide shuttle service from those lots. The ride costs $1.50 per person each way, or $3 round trip per person. That is on top of whatever the cost of the permit. The next level of parking lots cost $50 per game for parking. Plus you pay the $3 per person shuttle ride cost. So a car of 4 would pay $62 for parking and shuttle ride. There are also parking lots that charge $40 and $20 per game, plus the cost of the shuttle. $20 per game is the cheapest lot I saw listed on the goblue.com parking page.

The shuttle service is not provided by U of Michigan. The service is part of the regular bus system for Ann Arbor. Not only do they provide shuttle service from the various parking lots, they provide shuttle service from the hotels and other parts of Ann Arbor. It does not appear like U of Michigan is subsidizing the operation (although they don't post financials so I can't be sure). But I'm sure that UND would be happy to continue their service if people were willing to pay $20 or $40 per car to park in the ramp plus $3 per person for the shuttle. That would solve the entire problem.

[Sioux-cia]

This is the response I received from the city of Grand Forks dealing with the original parking issue with the Ralph.

"The City and The Ralph came to an agreement through the Detailed Development Plan process that parking would be evaluated a bit differently on the project. The parking requirement for an auditorium is one space per 4 seats. The seating capacity is around 11,400. Therefore the parking requirement is 2,850 for the site. The parking on the site, through shared parking with the bookstore, family practice and other commercial uses around the building, nearly exceeds this amount. In addition, the city required a traffic plan to be completed by a transportation consultant. The intent was to verify that the location of the parking and the affect on the traffic operation plan for the site. UND also identified alternative mode parking (bus pickup locations) on designated lots that provided additional parking for the facility."

So when I said they were given an exemption they were and the city did have the power over the university. Notice the part over the bus picking people up. By stopping the bus service it could be construed that the university is now in violation of their agreement.

Good pick up!! Now somebody just has to run with it......I'm sure the powers that be have an 'exemption' to the rule.

[82SiouxGuy]

This is the response I received from the city of Grand Forks dealing with the original parking issue with the Ralph.

"The City and The Ralph came to an agreement through the Detailed Development Plan process that parking would be evaluated a bit differently on the project. The parking requirement for an auditorium is one space per 4 seats. The seating capacity is around 11,400. Therefore the parking requirement is 2,850 for the site. The parking on the site, through shared parking with the bookstore, family practice and other commercial uses around the building, nearly exceeds this amount. In addition, the city required a traffic plan to be completed by a transportation consultant. The intent was to verify that the location of the parking and the affect on the traffic operation plan for the site. UND also identified alternative mode parking (bus pickup locations) on designated lots that provided additional parking for the facility."

So when I said they were given an exemption they were and the city did have the power over the university. Notice the part over the bus picking people up. By stopping the bus service it could be construed that the university is now in violation of their agreement.

They wouldn't be in violation if they provide enough spots in other lots. The parking at the Wellness Center was added after the plan was made. The parking area at Albatross and north of there were also added after the original plan was made. The response says that the available parking sites on site "nearly exceeds" the 2,850 spots needed for the building. If you add in the spots at the Wellness Center and at Albatross and north I would guess that the number of spots actually exceeds the 2,850. Once they exceed the required number, the 2,850, any other parking they provide is beyond the requirements. In addition to those spots you have on street parking, the lot at Tabula, and the Med School lot. Originally, the only lot that UND used for the additional parking was at Memorial. That's why they ran the shuttle from there. They stopped running that shuttle several years ago when they opened up parking in the other lots. UND and REA still work with the city on traffic plans. They are currently experimenting with a new traffic pattern to try and get people out even quicker. It appears to me that UND and REA provide more parking then is required by the city.

[MafiaMan]

One space per four seats...does anyone else think a more-likely number would be one space per two seats?

[jdub27]

One space per four seats...does anyone else think a more-likely number wod be one space per two seats?

That's on the city as it is their requirements for "auditoriums".

[siouxjoy]

This is a discussion forum. People come here to discuss things. That is what I am doing. I know all you care about is "exchanging information", but not everyone shares the same viewpoint.

Careful. You have a tendency to be harsh to anyone who has opinions different from yours. If you are going to demand that you be allowed to state your viewpoints, you have to allow others to state theirs as well, even if you disagree. Opinions that are different than yours aren't necessarily wrong (even if they belong to the "duckies and bunnies crowd").

Just sayin'

[MafiaMan]

That's on the city as it is their requirements for "auditoriums".

I know it's on the city...was just asking the question...

[smokey the cat]

They wouldn't be in violation if they provide enough spots in other lots. The parking at the Wellness Center was added after the plan was made. The parking area at Albatross and north of there were also added after the original plan was made. The response says that the available parking sites on site "nearly exceeds" the 2,850 spots needed for the building. If you add in the spots at the Wellness Center and at Albatross and north I would guess that the number of spots actually exceeds the 2,850. Once they exceed the required number, the 2,850, any other parking they provide is beyond the requirements. In addition to those spots you have on street parking, the lot at Tabula, and the Med School lot. Originally, the only lot that UND used for the additional parking was at Memorial. That's why they ran the shuttle from there. They stopped running that shuttle several years ago when they opened up parking in the other lots. UND and REA still work with the city on traffic plans. They are currently experimenting with a new traffic pattern to try and get people out even quicker. It appears to me that UND and REA provide more parking then is required by the city.

No. UND and the REA do not provide enough parking without the exemption and the other businesses providing the parking. Remember they were allowed to use these businesses parking in their original count. You said though that UND was excempt from parking requirements when I brought it up to start with. I thought I remembered that the city gave them a variance and they had. I do agree with you though that it cost to much for too few users to keep the shuttles going. But since the agreement included bus service for the exemption it still could be argued that they would have to ask the city to be released from that aspect of the agreement. Without the release they would still be technically in violation of the agreement of exemption. I also agree that parking at the Ralph is a lot better than other places. I was at a concert in Chula Vista, Ca. and then in Irvine, Ca. in September (Dave Matthews Band) and you should have seen the mess getting out of those venues. OK it was nice out for walking and the have huge lots but what a mess.

[dunder15]

What I would like too know is the total number of people that rode the shuttle buses. UND has those number because i saw the bus drivers keeping track of the number of riders as they got on the bus. then we can discuss how much it was used and could they have done something to make it work instead of just quitting the service with no notice. as other people have posted there was more people using the shuttle than were parking at the ramp. i doubt we will ever get those numbers from und as it makes them more money to open up more paid parking spots and not have to pay to run the shuttles. it was a 40% increase to get a go green pass at the wellness center parking lot then to park at the ramp and ride the shuttle.

[UNDBIZ]

Put a $1 tax on all concession items (beer, nachos, Coke, hot dogs). That would raise mad money (especially the beer! ). Add a $1 surcharge to all tickets. Do this for all events at REA, not just hockey. I think you would be surprised at how much money gets raised and how quickly it happens.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, that's enough of the crazy talk.

[82SiouxGuy]

No. UND and the REA do not provide enough parking without the exemption and the other businesses providing the parking. Remember they were allowed to use these businesses parking in their original count. You said though that UND was excempt from parking requirements when I brought it up to start with. I thought I remembered that the city gave them a variance and they had. I do agree with you though that it cost to much for too few users to keep the shuttles going. But since the agreement included bus service for the exemption it still could be argued that they would have to ask the city to be released from that aspect of the agreement. Without the release they would still be technically in violation of the agreement of exemption. I also agree that parking at the Ralph is a lot better than other places. I was at a concert in Chula Vista, Ca. and then in Irvine, Ca. in September (Dave Matthews Band) and you should have seen the mess getting out of those venues. OK it was nice out for walking and the have huge lots but what a mess.

I don't think it was me that said UND was exempt from the parking requirements. I'm pretty sure that it was someone else. UND has to follow all zoning and building regulations within the city so it only makes sense that they have to follow parking regulations. All state and county property within the city has to follow city ordinance.

The parking at the Wellness Center, the parking around Albatross and north of Albatross have all been added since the original parking plan was set with the city. The list you posted included the bookstore, Family Practice Center and the strip mall. That's why I said that they may now actually exceed that 2,850 number if they include all of these new spots. If they exceed the required number the city would have trouble forcing UND to continue a shuttle service, especially since UND opened several parking lots much closer than Memorial Stadium since the original plan was set. As I said, UND and REA work directly with the city on these parking issues. REA consulted both the city and UND when they were looking at changing the exit plan for the parking lots this fall.

[YaneA]

So I'm not the only one who thinks it's odd that Lucke's defense of the decision didn't include ridership numbers or parking revenue. If the shuttle is such a money pit, why would she even consider bringing it back by running it from the Memorial Stadium lot? As I said before, if the park and ride costs 20 bucks each night, even round trip, that is a hell of a lot of money over the course of the season for me to pay. I don't have anyone to go halvsies or quarterzies with me: the whole $400 would all be on me. There will come a point where being nickeled and dimed to death will mean the end of part of the fan base.

[82SiouxGuy]

What I would like too know is the total number of people that rode the shuttle buses. UND has those number because i saw the bus drivers keeping track of the number of riders as they got on the bus. then we can discuss how much it was used and could they have done something to make it work instead of just quitting the service with no notice. as other people have posted there was more people using the shuttle than were parking at the ramp. i doubt we will ever get those numbers from und as it makes them more money to open up more paid parking spots and not have to pay to run the shuttles. it was a 40% increase to get a go green pass at the wellness center parking lot then to park at the ramp and ride the shuttle.

I don't know what the season pass was at the ramp, but it has been $10 per game during the past couple of years. Before that it was $5 per game, the same as all of the other UND parking lots. At that time it was the best deal in parking because of cost, but not always as fast to get out of as some of the other lots. The current cost of parking at the Wellness Center is $10 per game or $175 per season. The new spots they opened at the Medical School parking lot are $5 per game.

[82SiouxGuy]

So I'm not the only one who thinks it's odd that Lucke's defense of the decision didn't include ridership numbers or parking revenue. If the shuttle is such a money pit, why would she even consider bringing it back by running it from the Memorial Stadium lot? As I said before, if the park and ride costs 20 bucks each night, even round trip, that is a hell of a lot of money over the course of the season for me to pay. I don't have anyone to go halvsies or quarterzies with me: the whole $400 would all be on me. There will come a point where being nickeled and dimed to death will mean the end of part of the fan base.

At the ramp the park and ride cost $10 each night round trip. I was usually alone and paid the fee myself. Maybe they think that even fewer people would park at Memorial, plus they wouldn't need parking attendants, so they could run 1 or 2 buses and charge per person on the bus instead of per car at the ramp. Fewer buses and fewer staff may cut the cost enough to make it cost effective. Of course it will probably cost families more per game than the old way.

[YaneA]

$10 to park at med school. Same at Wellness and Albatross. $5 at College of Nursing. 17 home games? I count the possibility of 24.

[82SiouxGuy]

I know it's on the city...was just asking the question...

My guess is that the number is probably pretty standard in the industry. The city usually uses industry standards for most of those type decisions.

[82SiouxGuy]

One space per four seats...does anyone else think a more-likely number wod be one space per two seats?

A quick search shows that the parking per seat requirement for arenas, auditoriums, stadiums, churches and other gathering halls ranges from 3 seats per parking spot to 5 seats per parking spot. Houston and the state of Utah are examples with regulations at 3. Los Angeles and Gig Harbor, Washington are examples at 5. The majority of locations seem to use 4. The other way that they set a number of parking spots is by number of square feet of floor space for places like convention centers. If the facility is mixed use, like the Alerus Center, they figure the number both ways and use the higher number. But Grand Forks seems to be with the majority by using 4 as their requirement.

[smokey the cat]

UND owned the land and, as a State institution, was exempt from the City's parking requirements. UND has historically done all sorts of development on campus that the City wouldn't approve (as-is) if they had the power.

I guess you are wrong according to the city of Grand Forks.

[smokey the cat]

I don't think it was me that said UND was exempt from the parking requirements. I'm pretty sure that it was someone else. UND has to follow all zoning and building regulations within the city so it only makes sense that they have to follow parking regulations. All state and county property within the city has to follow city ordinance.

The parking at the Wellness Center, the parking around Albatross and north of Albatross have all been added since the original parking plan was set with the city. The list you posted included the bookstore, Family Practice Center and the strip mall. That's why I said that they may now actually exceed that 2,850 number if they include all of these new spots. If they exceed the required number the city would have trouble forcing UND to continue a shuttle service, especially since UND opened several parking lots much closer than Memorial Stadium since the original plan was set. As I said, UND and REA work directly with the city on these parking issues. REA consulted both the city and UND when they were looking at changing the exit plan for the parking lots this fall.

My bad. You just thought they meet the requirements. They did with the exemption. They were counting the Memorial parking lot and all the others in the area. And when you get down to it all of those lots are a legit claim to having enough spaces required. Comparing the parking around this arena compared to others there really is enough parking.

[gfhockey]

So who we firing?

[82SiouxGuy]

So who we firing?

Since no one has done anything wrong other than upset a few people by eliminating a program that lost money, my guess is nobody. Maybe you'd like to volunteer to be fired?

[Blackheart]

So who we firing?

Dan Hammer, please.