Grand Forks Economy

[Kab]

Just treat everyone fairly, shouldn’t matter who the developer is.

should new houses get a tax break beside the new $1650 from the state ?

maybe a 5 year tax break would make more sense or 5% decrease per year in tax break for 20 years , just be fair to current tax payers when new infrastructure is needed.

remember nothing is free, someone somewhere is paying for it

 

[vlarson]

I have an Airline Guide from 1977.  GFK had 15 flights a day back then.  Six to MSP ( 3 North Central DC9, 3 Northwest 727), two flights to Denver on Frontier (1 via Fargo, 1 via Rapid City), one flight Winnipeg on NW, two flights to Omaha via Fargo and Sioux Falls on NC with Convair 580s, plus 580's to Devils Lake and TRF on to MSP.  Now with 3 regional jets on Delta and Allegiant, the contrast is stark.  

[NewUndFan]

17 minutes ago, Kab said:

Just treat everyone fairly, shouldn’t matter who the developer is.

should new houses get a tax break beside the new $1650 from the state ?

maybe a 5 year tax break would make more sense or 5% decrease per year in tax break for 20 years , just be fair to current tax payers when new infrastructure is needed.

remember nothing is free, someone somewhere is paying for it

 

I agree everyone should be treated fairly.   If I had the funds and wanted to take the risk I am sure I could get the same deal.  I personally dont have the funds or the appetite to take the risk.   There is only so many that develop a property like this.  We should be thankful that we have them that want to continue to grow Grand Forks.  Sometimes it takes some incentive to risk their own money to do it.   I read they get tax free for 5 years and every 5 years its increased until full at 20 years.  Right now the current tax payers are getting ZERO tax from that property.  Dont you think future residents will be appreciative of the tax income when the apartments go fully online?   If it sits vacant for the next 10 years still no tax dollars.   Sometimes you have to give to receive and then intern GROW.  We all benefit as the city grows.  

And No i dont think new houses should get a tax break.  There is no shortage of people that will build homes and no reason to incentivize that.  Many new homes being built around town with out  needing tax incentives.   

[The Sicatoka]

Can someone put a dollar-number to these "luxury" units? I want to hear what that threshold is. 

[nodak651]

15 hours ago, Blackheart said:

People from Grand Forks?

My understanding of this is that money from the city budget is being given to several developers to build luxury apartments on the south end of town.  We're talking millions of $$$ here.  Instead of letting the market dictate supply and demand, the city has decided to provide incentives to these select contractors to build super fancy and expensive apartments.  These are not the kind of places UND students would live.  Additionally, these projects don't have to pay any property taxes for 20 years (I believe).  What a sweetheart deal!  Meanwhile, the infrastructure costs for these new buildings will be absorbed by the current tax paying citizens.  Get ready for multiple increases over the next few years!  Watched the Grand Forks City Council meeting from this week on YouTube and it was quite eye-opening.  Go to 3:35:00 for a perspective from a local GF businessman.

That just isn't correct.  I think a lot of people are confused about this.  Someone correct me if I'm wrong here.

When a company invests in vacant land, the property value and tax assessment typically increase. To encourage investment, companies may receive a tax incentive, exempting them from paying a percentage of the increased tax assessment. However, they must still pay the pre-development tax rate. The city does not provide cash payments to the developer, and the tax revenue from the developed property does not decrease. 

[nodak651]

Anyone know what "Forks Freightliner" is?  Looks like a farly large building.  https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/83f7c1d340f843809bbff15fc6d722f3#data_s=id%3AdataSource_5-17af413d6ea-layer-4%3A318

[The Sicatoka]

7 minutes ago, nodak651 said:

Anyone know what "Forks Freightliner" is?  Looks like a farly large building.  https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/83f7c1d340f843809bbff15fc6d722f3#data_s=id%3AdataSource_5-17af413d6ea-layer-4%3A318

Likely a Freightliner trucks dealership. 

I see a ramp to a dock and warehouse area and a large garage/shop space. 

[Und Princess]

1 minute ago, nodak651 said:

Anyone know what "Forks Freightliner" is?  Looks like a farly large building.  https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/83f7c1d340f843809bbff15fc6d722f3#data_s=id%3AdataSource_5-17af413d6ea-layer-4%3A318

All I know is that it's by McDonald's. I don't know what Forks Freightliner sells. 

[nodak651]

3 minutes ago, The Sicatoka said:

Likely a Freightliner trucks dealership. 

Great!  Looks like you're prob correct based on the size of the parking spaces.

[Cratter]

1 hour ago, nodak651 said:

That just isn't correct.  I think a lot of people are confused about this.  Someone correct me if I'm wrong here.

When a company invests in vacant land, the property value and tax assessment typically increase. To encourage investment, companies may receive a tax incentive, exempting them from paying a percentage of the increased tax assessment. However, they must still pay the pre-development tax rate. The city does not provide cash payments to the developer, and the tax revenue from the developed property does not decrease. 

Yes. They aren't just giving out cash.

This is a normal deal done thousands of times all over the country.

People love to pretend to be outraged over nothing.

[Cratter]

1 hour ago, nodak651 said:

Anyone know what "Forks Freightliner" is?  Looks like a farly large building.  https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/83f7c1d340f843809bbff15fc6d722f3#data_s=id%3AdataSource_5-17af413d6ea-layer-4%3A318

Parts & Repair shop. Doubt they'll add dealership.

But maybe.

[Blackheart]

2 hours ago, nodak651 said:

That just isn't correct.  I think a lot of people are confused about this.  Someone correct me if I'm wrong here.

When a company invests in vacant land, the property value and tax assessment typically increase. To encourage investment, companies may receive a tax incentive, exempting them from paying a percentage of the increased tax assessment. However, they must still pay the pre-development tax rate. The city does not provide cash payments to the developer, and the tax revenue from the developed property does not decrease. 

I stand corrected; they are not just handing over briefcases filled with $100 bills...at least I hope they're not.

[FSSD]

4 hours ago, Cratter said:

Yes. They aren't just giving out cash.

This is a normal deal done thousands of times all over the country.

People love to pretend to be outraged over nothing.

Is this a TIF deal? or some other type of incentive program?

[Cratter]

44 minutes ago, FSSD said:

Is this a TIF deal? or some other type of incentive program?

I don't believe its TIF.

Just the normal, "if you spend and risk millions building this massive structure in our city, creating jobs, increasing available housing....we'll give you a break on your property tax bill."

Its the same program cities use all over the country, including West Fargo, that advertise it on their website screaming "Come develop here!"

[Blackheart]

43 minutes ago, Cratter said:

I don't believe its TIF.

Just the normal, "if you spend and risk millions building this massive structure in our city, creating jobs, increasing available housing....we'll give you a break on your property tax bill."

Its the same program cities use all over the country, including West Fargo, that advertise it on their website screaming "Come develop here!"

I'm curious as to how quickly they will fill these upscale apartments.

[Cratter]

1 hour ago, Blackheart said:

I'm curious as to how quickly they will fill these upscale apartments.

If history tells us anything, probably pretty fast.

Northridge has decades of knowledge in Grand Forks housing market.

Its a pretty simple formula: build apartments. See how quickly it fills up based on rates, amenities.

Ok its 80% full. Build a new one or two.

Grand Forks is lucky to have them.

 

[Cratter]

12 hours ago, The Sicatoka said:

Can someone put a dollar-number to these "luxury" units? I want to hear what that threshold is. 

"Branding theater"

"Wholesale prices"

[ChadR]

Funny that Cowger is so against these. He owns/manages a bunch of apartments in GF.

[Cratter]

8 minutes ago, ChadR said:

Funny that Cowger is so against these. He owns/manages a bunch of apartments in GF.

Yeah also color me shocked a golf simulator owner is against a year round "Top Golf style."

Which nearly every Grand Forks resident would love to have.

[Bison Dan]

8 hours ago, Cratter said:

If history tells us anything, probably pretty fast.

Northridge has decades of knowledge in Grand Forks housing market.

Its a pretty simple formula: build apartments. See how quickly it fills up based on rates, amenities.

Ok its 80% full. Build a new one or two.

Grand Forks is lucky to have them.

 

The question is would they build without the Pilot program?  They claimed there is only a 2% vacancy rate in the city, so if true they wouldn't need Pilot.  

[Cratter]

51 minutes ago, Bison Dan said:

The question is would they build without the Pilot program?  They claimed there is only a 2% vacancy rate in the city, so if true they wouldn't need Pilot.  

Indeed, its a poker game.

Your city could have a unemployment rate of 10%, doesnt mean a new factory will build in your city without tax incentives.

These programs across the country in similar sized towns get approved about 70 to 90% of the time. 

If your city only has one, two, three (We all just lost Epic) major developers building in your city, are you going to take a risk losing them? When the nearby town will gladly approve that major project that will take the bulk of their capital, planning, and time for the next three to five years?

[jdub27]

10 hours ago, Cratter said:

Ok its 80% full. Build a new one or two.

Any developer who sees 80% occupancy and thinks one or two more need buildings need to be built is going to go broke real fast.

[The Sicatoka]

The "time to build" vacancy number in Fargo is 90%. 

[Blackheart]

3 hours ago, Bison Dan said:

The question is would they build without the Pilot program?  They claimed there is only a 2% vacancy rate in the city, so if true they wouldn't need Pilot.  

That vacancy rate is from the developer's own findings based on under a thousand units.  The actual rate is believed to be closer to 5%.

[Bison Dan]

38 minutes ago, Blackheart said:

That vacancy rate is from the developer's own findings based on under a thousand units.  The actual rate is believed to be closer to 5%.

I agree, even at 5% do you really need the Pilot program.  If it doesn't cash flow without the tax incentive's then you're in trouble.  I think the bankers too are complicit in telling their customers to ask for tax breaks even if they don't need them.