keikla Posted April 21, 2013 Posted April 21, 2013 Thank you! I never said anywhere to "hate" an entire group of people, but yet some liberal, "educated", enabling, apologists on this site want to then to vilify those, including me, for being "racist, hateful and ignorant" for views that differ from theirs. I'm very comforable with my personal stance so keep firing away if it makes you feel better. Your example above draws on human nature and in no way makes one a racist, hateful or ignorant for being more cautious, alert and discerning around "group" of people that have harmed you repeatedly. The "white guy" arguments thrown around hold no water as those are tragic acts of RANDOM violence. What do all Muslim acts of violence and terror on the USA and our people, 9/11, Boston, Ft. Hood, USS Cole, ect..., have in common??? Islam and it's radical interpretation of it and because of this these are NEVER acts of RANDOM violence. As to 82Sioux and his repeated history lessons...what are the 5 top five countries and it's people that "hate", your favorite word, the USA??? Egypt, Algeria, Lebanon, Palestine and Pakistan. See anything these coutries all have in common? And if some of them had the means to come to this country to do what just happened in Boston don't you think they would??? Does that make all those people bad or evil...no but as Cratter mentioned above it is human nature to look at things, situations, and people differently in the face of repeated acts of violence/terror perpetrated by a group with a common link/theme. And maybe I have more skin in this game than most having lost someone close to my family overseas at the hands of the same type of cowards we witnessed in Boston that shapes my perspective. Racist?? Ignorant?? Hateful?? I guess a "rush to judgement" in using this terms has been made by some of the same people on this thread that told us not to do that to #1 and #2 when this was all unfolding. Ironic or hypocritical?? 1) For the record, I didn't say it makes one racist to do that. To some extent, I do think it's human nature (though there are a lot of things that are human nature, which doesn't make them right). I just think a lot of innocent people suffer at the hands of it. 2) The 'white guy' arguments do hold weight around here. Most of the shooting rampages in this country were done by introverts. That's a common thread, yet we don't attack it since so many people in this country are innocent introverts. 3) The problem I have with this list is that it's subjective. We could easily insert North Korea in here, but then we'd have to start singing "One of these things is not like the other." (That was an attempt at a joke to lighten the mood in this thread). 4) Please don't pull that card. By now, a lot of us have lost close friends or loved ones over there. Or we get to witness friends struggle through day to day activities because of crippling PTSD.
Oxbow6 Posted April 21, 2013 Posted April 21, 2013 2) The 'white guy' arguments do hold weight around here. Most of the shooting rampages in this country were done by introverts. That's a common thread, yet we don't attack it since so many people in this country are innocent introverts. 3) The problem I have with this list is that it's subjective. We could easily insert North Korea in here, but then we'd have to start singing "One of these things is not like the other." (That was an attempt at a joke to lighten the mood in this thread). 4) Please don't pull that card. By now, a lot of us have lost close friends or loved ones over there. Or we get to witness friends struggle through day to day activities because of crippling PTSD. 2) Weight? Maybe but it's apples to oranges IMO. Again those are random with no unifying ideological/religous connections. Muslim/Islamic attacks all have the same unifying tie. But that doesn't make the "white guy" situations any less tragic. 3) The list is not subjective. It's research based on disapproval of US policy and it's administration and these country's peoples view of the US. It's very accessible but I did smile as to your North Korea reference. North Korea isn't in the top 10 but Iran and Iraq are. I get the list and it's results aren't all inclusive but does give some insight. 4) Pull that card?? Just a fact I'm expressing. But using the "racist, "hate" and "ignorant" cards are acceptable?
Bison Dan Posted April 21, 2013 Posted April 21, 2013 Out of 1.6 billion Muslims in the world, and the vast majority of them live in very poor countries on the other side of the planet with very little chance of even trying to come to the United States. The only interaction most of them have with US citizens is with the US military. I do seem to remember after 9/11 watching TV and seeing CNN show muslims in these countries cheering as the planes crashed into the towers. 3
Oxbow6 Posted April 21, 2013 Posted April 21, 2013 On a side note...do a little research on this guy if you have time. Saeed Abedini And some of you have concerns/issues about some things that are being posted here on this topic.
82SiouxGuy Posted April 21, 2013 Posted April 21, 2013 I see your point but the problem is it was "those people"...again. This Boston situation was an Islamic Jihadist terroristic act...it's not the first and won't be the last but let's not water down the significane that this was another radical Islamic attack on this country. If this makes people take a different look at the Muslim community as a whole in this country, well... Thank you! I never said anywhere to "hate" an entire group of people, but yet some liberal, "educated", enabling, apologists on this site want to then to vilify those, including me, for being "racist, hateful and ignorant" for views that differ from theirs. I'm very comforable with my personal stance so keep firing away if it makes you feel better. Your example above draws on human nature and in no way makes one a racist, hateful or ignorant for being more cautious, alert and discerning around "group" of people that have harmed you repeatedly. The "white guy" arguments thrown around hold no water as those are tragic acts of RANDOM violence. What do all Muslim acts of violence and terror on the USA and our people, 9/11, Boston, Ft. Hood, USS Cole, ect..., have in common??? Islam and it's radical interpretation of it and because of this these are NEVER acts of RANDOM violence. As to 82Sioux and his repeated history lessons...what are the 5 top five countries and it's people that "hate", your favorite word, the USA??? Egypt, Algeria, Lebanon, Palestine and Pakistan. See anything these countries all have in common? And if some of them had the means to come to this country to do what just happened in Boston don't you think they would??? Does that make all those people bad or evil...no but as Cratter mentioned above it is human nature to look at things, situations, and people differently in the face of repeated acts of violence/terror perpetrated by a group with a common link/theme. And maybe I have more skin in this game than most having lost someone close to my family overseas at the hands of the same type of cowards we witnessed in Boston that shapes my perspective. Racist?? Ignorant?? Hateful?? I guess a "rush to judgement" in using this terms has been made by some of the same people on this thread that told us not to do that to #1 and #2 when this was all unfolding. Ironic or hypocritical?? You have basically accused an entire group, more than 1.6 billion people worldwide, for the actions of a much smaller group. And what do your top 5 Muslim countries have to do with the brothers that seem to have done the bombing? Brothers of Chechen descent, born and raised in southern Russia, and then living in the United States for more than a decade? Is there any evidence of people from those 5 countries being involved or are you just jumping to conclusions? You're blaming people from those countries because they would have done the same thing if they would have had the chance? Since you like my historical information so much, here's another history related scenario and question. Do you remember a little event from the 1940's? They called it World War II. It was in all of the papers. Maybe you've heard of it? The US was part of a group fighting against Germany, Italy and Japan. US citizens of German, Italian and Japanese heritage were all suspected of being traitors. They went so far as to put Japanese-Americans in prison camps, especially on the West Coast. There was no evidence of wrong doing, just the fact that they were Japanese. Even if they were 2nd or 3rd generation US citizens. Is that the type of justice that you support? Is that the type of critical thinking that makes sense to you? I'm pretty sure that most racists feel "very comfortable with their personal stance". I don't know if you are racist or not, but lumping a whole group together based solely on the basis of religion is something a racist would do. Just look back in history. 3
Oxbow6 Posted April 21, 2013 Posted April 21, 2013 You have basically accused an entire group, more than 1.6 billion people worldwide, for the actions of a much smaller group. And what do your top 5 Muslim countries have to do with the brothers that seem to have done the bombing? Brothers of Chechen descent, born and raised in southern Russia, and then living in the United States for more than a decade? Is there any evidence of people from those 5 countries being involved or are you just jumping to conclusions? You're blaming people from those countries because they would have done the same thing if they would have had the chance? Since you like my historical information so much, here's another history related scenario and question. Do you remember a little event from the 1940's? They called it World War II. It was in all of the papers. Maybe you've heard of it? The US was part of a group fighting against Germany, Italy and Japan. US citizens of German, Italian and Japanese heritage were all suspected of being traitors. They went so far as to put Japanese-Americans in prison camps, especially on the West Coast. There was no evidence of wrong doing, just the fact that they were Japanese. Even if they were 2nd or 3rd generation US citizens. Is that the type of justice that you support? Is that the type of critical thinking that makes sense to you? I'm pretty sure that most racists feel "very comfortable with their personal stance". I don't know if you are racist or not, but lumping a whole group together based solely on the basis of religion is something a racist would do. Just look back in history. Saeed Abedini...look him up and get back to me.
Sioux-cia Posted April 21, 2013 Posted April 21, 2013 82SiouxGuy posted, 'The only interaction most of them have with US citizens is with the US military.' A good friend of my son works as a forensic specialist for the Army. When she told me what her job duties entail, I was shocked! I shouldn't have been because the people who are in the military are just people. Know that not all of our 'heros' are. We are not the only ones who base our opinions of a group by the actions of a few. Not saying that's why Muslims hate us. I don't know why some Muslim's hate us. I've read stuff, talked to the few Muslim friends I have and I still don't have an answer. This is the closest I've come to an answer. Read the whole article. 'So please, enough of the questions. Muslims do not hate America. Muslims in the East, like non-Muslim Americans in the West, both hate injustice. Peace is possible despite free speech differences—but only by joining together against injustice.' http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/guest-voices/post/why-muslims-hate-america/2012/09/21/520dd22e-043f-11e2-8102-ebee9c66e190_blog.html
82SiouxGuy Posted April 21, 2013 Posted April 21, 2013 Saeed Abedini...look him up and get back to me. I'm well aware of him. Sounds like a good man who has been treated horribly in Iran. And what does that have to do with 2 Chechen brothers setting off bombs in Boston? Absolutely nothing.
Sioux-cia Posted April 21, 2013 Posted April 21, 2013 Saeed Abedini...look him up and get back to me. We're not innocent. 'WASHINGTON — A nonpartisan, independent review of interrogation and detention programs in the years after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks concludes that “it is indisputable that the United States engaged in the practice of torture” and that the nation’s highest officials bore ultimate responsibility for it.' http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/16/world/us-practiced-torture-after-9-11-nonpartisan-review-concludes.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
Oxbow6 Posted April 21, 2013 Posted April 21, 2013 I see my "racist, ignorant and hateful" thoughts are in the minority... least with 82Sioux and Sioux-cia so I'll take a break from this conversation for now.
Sioux-cia Posted April 21, 2013 Posted April 21, 2013 We've posted some, IMO, valid responses to yours. If you have nothing further to add, I understand. BTW, I did not call you a racist, ignorant nor hateful. I said your statement about taking 'a different look at the Muslim community as a whole in this country...well so be it.' smacks of racism. I didn't call you any names. In addition, you have no idea what my political affiliations are. What I am is a person who has been subjected (I refuse to say victim) to racism and violence.
Oxbow6 Posted April 21, 2013 Posted April 21, 2013 BTW, I did not call you a racist, ignorant nor hateful. I said your statement about taking 'a different look at the Muslim community as a whole in this country...well so be it.' smacks of racism. I didn't call you any names. Didn't use term "racist" but used "smacks of racism". And they are two totally different things? OK??? Kind of like what your definition of "is" is? I hear ya...
Sioux-cia Posted April 21, 2013 Posted April 21, 2013 I hear ya... No, you don't but I'm not surprised.
Oxbow6 Posted April 21, 2013 Posted April 21, 2013 No, you don't but I'm not surprised. So are they different in your context of use? Keep back peddling... 1
82SiouxGuy Posted April 21, 2013 Posted April 21, 2013 So are they different in your context of use? Keep back peddling... I don't see any back peddling, or any need to back peddle. If you can't see the difference between actually calling someone a racist, and saying that their statements sound like racism, then that says a lot about you. 2
Oxbow6 Posted April 21, 2013 Posted April 21, 2013 If you can't see the difference between actually calling someone a racist, and saying that their statements sound like racism, then that says a lot about you. I guess it does then.
petey23 Posted April 21, 2013 Posted April 21, 2013 I don't see any back peddling, or any need to back peddle. If you can't see the difference between actually calling someone a racist, and saying that their statements sound like racism, then that says a lot about you. So if hypothetically, I say that many of the things you post are moronic, stupid, idiotic, unintelligent, or ignorant but don't directly call you an unintelligent, ignorant, stupid, idiotic moron we are good? Got it. Love the passive aggressiveness. 1
Oxbow6 Posted April 21, 2013 Posted April 21, 2013 So if hypothetically, I say that many of the things you post are moronic, stupid, idiotic, unintelligent, or ignorant but don't directly call you an unintelligent, ignorant, stupid, idiotic moron we are good? Got it. Love the passive aggressiveness. Now you are just being silly with a comment like that. It only works in one direction with him.
82SiouxGuy Posted April 21, 2013 Posted April 21, 2013 So if hypothetically, I say that many of the things you post are moronic, stupid, idiotic, unintelligent, or ignorant but don't directly call you an unintelligent, ignorant, stupid, idiotic moron we are good? Got it. Love the passive aggressiveness. Intent also plays into the equation. And since you are obviously trying to pick a fight, shown by the extreme example used, I wouldn't call us good. You are an anonymous poster who knows absolutely nothing about me, so I really don't put any stock in whether you called me names or not. But it was a nice attempt to be childish during a serious discussion. 2
yzerman19 Posted April 21, 2013 Posted April 21, 2013 Racism is veiled in many forms- hell, many of us who are repulsed by say the KKK are guilty of telling or laughing at racist jokes...the first step in ending it is to be aware of it in all forms- malignant as well as relatively benign. Racism disguised as religion has caused more pain and suffering than ny other single idea the world has ever discovered. It gives the low information people peace to label these killers as "chechyan" and "Islamist extremists" rather than simply young men living in America. Make them someone that identifies differently than you or your neighbor and you can go along living in a bubble. These labels fuel racism and intolerance. Hate knows no cultural nor ethnic boundaries. World war three is being fought between good people and evil people. It is impossible to group them by class, race or geography 4
zonadub Posted April 21, 2013 Posted April 21, 2013 This is an honest question because I do not know the answer... Is there a war going on the world today that does not involve the Muslims on one side?
Sioux-cia Posted April 21, 2013 Posted April 21, 2013 This is an honest question because I do not know the answer... Is there a war going on the world today that does not involve the Muslims on one side? Yes. http://www.warsintheworld.com/?page=static1258254223
petey23 Posted April 21, 2013 Posted April 21, 2013 Intent also plays into the equation. And since you are obviously trying to pick a fight, shown by the extreme example used, I wouldn't call us good. You are an anonymous poster who knows absolutely nothing about me, so I really don't put any stock in whether you called me names or not. But it was a nice attempt to be childish during a serious discussion. But, but, but I said "if" and even used "hypothetically".
82SiouxGuy Posted April 21, 2013 Posted April 21, 2013 This is an honest question because I do not know the answer... Is there a war going on the world today that does not involve the Muslims on one side? There are some wars that involve Muslims on both sides, most of which don't involve al-Qaeda. Some are religion related and some aren't. The largest of the sects is the Sunni which comprises about 90% of all Muslims. The next two largest are the Shi'i and Sufi. After these, there are numerous splinter groups which are often named after the individual scholars who began them: Hanifa, after Abu Hanifa; Maliki, after Malik ibn Anas; Shafi'i, after Muhammad ibn Idris al-Shafi'i; Zaydi, after Zayd ibn Ali; the Nusayri, Ismaili, Murji'ah, etc.And there are divisions within these sects. Some of the different sects don't get along with others. The Sunni's and the Shi'ites don't normally get along well. They have fought within Iraq forever. But there are also large groups of Muslims that aren't fighting with anyone. But to answer your question, there are a lot of wars that don't involve Muslims. And there always have been.
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