Idaho St. v. North Dakota

[Oxbow6]

Takes one to know one I suppose.......................

You're criticizing my knowledge of basketball, yet you are the one who walked into the Sioux Center yesterday expecting to see Guldseth and Gardner in uniform.

This also just in: the 1992 and 1993 Dallas Cowboys had better players than the 2012 Dallas Cowboys........................

"It's Mussman's fault"

As a mod I would've expected better of you. You are like those WI bums last night...instigate and turtle.

Take a page from Sicatoka on how to be a mod on this site. Would benefit everyone here.

[bincitysioux]

As mod I would've expected better of you. You are like those WI bums last night...instigate and turtle.

Take a page from Sicatoka on how to be a mod on this site. Would benefit everyone here.

The other moderators will moderate me, and because of my decision to engage in this childish argument with you, I've recused my self of moderating in this thread.

But I will say it is good to know that in addition to being an authority on not only hockey, football, and basketball, you know the proper way to moderate a message board as well!

[Oxbow6]

The other moderators will moderate me, and because of my decision to engage in this childish argument with you, I've recused my self of moderating in this thread.

But I will say it is good to know that in addition to being an authority on not only hockey, football, and basketball, you know the proper way to moderate a message board as well!

Childish? Cause I wasn't wearing green and white glasses yesterday? Just made a comment on the game by a D1 UND team that IMO is far less talented than the D2 teams I remember watching at UND. You don't have agree with that. You brought up Muss in a MBB thread. That's childish.

[jimdahl]

Yep, you guys are getting a little personal. Try to avoid it, please.

As to standards for moderators -- we have no problem with mods getting involved in debates (since we draw volunteers from frequent posters, no one would agree to it if they had to quit participating), they just recuse themselves from moderating that particular discussion.

[bincitysioux]

Childish? Cause I wasn't wearing green and white glasses yesterday? Just made a comment on the game by a D1 UND team that IMO is far less talented than the D2 teams I remember watching at UND. You don't have agree with that. You brought up Muss in a MBB thread. That's childish.

I took issue with the fact that a long-time poster on this site who rarely if ever has graced us with his presence in the basketball forum, felt the need to jump in after after a very nice performance by the basketball team yesterday and proclaim them to be "talent poor" and playing "really bad basketball". You seemed to basically insinuate that since they are obviously not as good as arguably the greatest teams that North Dakota ever put on the floor in its history, that this year's team is terrible.

I actually agree with you that the circa-1990 teams would run away from this team.

[Oxbow6]

I took issue with the fact that a long-time poster on this site who rarely if ever has graced us with his presence in the basketball forum, felt the need to jump in after after a very nice performance by the basketball team yesterday and proclaim them to be "talent poor" and playing "really bad basketball". You seemed to basically insinuate that since they are obviously not as good as arguably the greatest teams that North Dakota ever put on the floor in its history, that this year's team is terrible.

I actually agree with you that the circa-1990 teams would run away from this team.

I had a buddy fly in for the weekends sports activities. He went to the basketball game with me. He played at this level at a different school and he said it was some of the poorest D1 basketball he'd seen.

BTW I'll PM you from now on as to who I should post to with the green and white glasses on.

[bincitysioux]

I had a buddy fly in for the weekends sports activities. He went to the basketball game with me. He played at this level at a different school and he said it was some of the poorest D1 basketball he'd seen.

Well then they must suck if he said so. You were right all along.

[Oxbow6]

Well then they must suck if he said so. You were right all along.

Whatever...

[UND92,96]

My apologies for taking this thread off on even more of a tangent, but since the early 1990's, I actually think American basketball as a whole has taken a step back. Not from an athletic standpoint, as LeBron, for example, is incredible, but more from a fundamental standpoint. I can't really fathom how the US Olympic team can struggle to beat a comparatively unathletic team like Spain so often. Granted, other countries have gotten better in the past 20 years, but I don't think that alone explains the difference between 1992 (original Dream Team) and today.

[bincitysioux]

My apologies for taking this thread off on even more of a tangent, but since the early 1990's, I actually think American basketball as a whole has taken a step back. Not from an athletic standpoint, as LeBron, for example, is incredible, but more from a fundamental standpoint. I can't really fathom how the US Olympic team can struggle to beat a comparatively unathletic team like Spain so often. Granted, other countries have gotten better in the past 20 years, but I don't think that alone explains the difference between 1992 (original Dream Team) and today.

No apologies necessary. In fact I thank you.

I agree with you. I actually saw a documentary done late last summer/early fall, that dealt with Michael Jordan, his career, and contributions to the game. I don't remember who did the show, but one of the things that some argued was that Jordan's early career skills as a one-on-one dunking machine, the popularity of that style, and they way at which they were marketed, created a shift in how kids at the time approached the game. Basically it marked a shift to a new era of basketball that focused "highlight" plays above the rim, rather than on the fundamentals of basketball.

Probably not a cooincidence, that I personally have not really been able to sit through an entire NBA basketball game probably since Jordan retired.

Anyways, it was an interesting show, that may have a point there.

[82SiouxGuy]

No apologies necessary. In fact I thank you.

I agree with you. I actually saw a documentary done late last summer/early fall, that dealt with Michael Jordan, his career, and contributions to the game. I don't remember who did the show, but one of the things that some argued was that Jordan's early career skills as a one-on-one dunking machine, the popularity of that style, and they way at which they were marketed, created a shift in how kids at the time approached the game. Basically it marked a shift to a new era of basketball that focused "highlight" plays above the rim, rather than on the fundamentals of basketball.

Anyways, it was an interesting show, that may have a point there.

A lot of basketball experts have talked about the poor fundamentals and poor team work of most current professional and college basketball players. You're right, it is about "highlight" plays and "look at what I can do" instead of making smart plays, or simple plays. The athletic ability has gotten better, but the game itself has changed, which makes it that much harder to compare different eras.

[SiouxVolley]

I guess I must be really bored but I checked the records of the top 10 D2 teams in the country as of right now and what their record is versus D1 schools this year. They are 0-11 but this does not reflect on their record cause they are all listed as exhibition games on their schedule. The mix of D1 teams played is from Duke to Colorado State.

Which proves my point. I never said a top DII team can or should beat a top 100 DI team. Duke will schedule any DII in an exhibition, because they will always win. Top 100 DI teams should always win vs DII, especially at home. All DI teams attempt to schedule exhibitions against teams that they know they will beat 99% of the time. A 100-200 rated DI team will not schedule a top 10 DII team, period, because there is too high a probability to get beat. Top 10 DII teams can only get games scheduled against Top 100 DI teams. DII teams have to rely on old time basketball fundamentals to win, and are often better at that facet of the game.

NDSU lost to Moorhead State last year in exhibition. Guess NDSU wanted as cheap a game guarantee as possible that only cost them taxi fares, Moorhead was just a fair DII team.

N Kentucky beat WVU last year.

Butler lost to Northern State (Aberdeen) last year.

Arizona lost to Seattle Pacific.

Syracuse lost to LeMoyne, which is also in Syracuse.

Winona St - when it had an absolutely awesome 3-pt shooting about six years ago and was the DII champ - beat Minnesota.

Grand Valley St beat Michigan St.

An SDSU team with Wolters could have been assembled in the NCC now if not for all the move ups. DI teams, other than former NCC members, did not want Wolters. The Woodside NDSU team was assembled from athletes that had DII scholarship offers, but no bonafide DI offers other than transition schools. The five move up s from the NCC means that 65 basketball players a year, mostly from the Upper Midwest area, that were getting DII scholarships 10 years ago are now getting DI scholarships. Does that make them better players?

The DII Elite Eight would dominate the last 8 into the DI NCAAs (15 and 16 seeds). Granted, 60% of DII is absolutely awful. Seems like most fans, like the total moron NDSUstudent on Bisonville who isn't man enough to actually discuss this issue here, can't grasp the concept of a statistical distributions and how they overlap between DI and DII.

In the Big Sky, the only schools that can actually win recruiting battles with the WCC, WAC, and even the Big West are Weber St and Montana. Weber's and Montana's recruiting results are reflected in their computer ratings, while the rest of the Big Sky has numerous DII teams rated above them.

[FargoBison]

There is no chance NDSU's entire team from the Wooside era would have been together if NDSU was in DII, I'm not even sure if anyone outside of Moorman is even on the team if NDSU was DII and there is no way they'd be on the same team somewhere else in DII. Then you have other key contributors like Andre Smith and Mike Tveidt who definitely wouldn't have been on the team or playing in division 2 for that matter.

Plus I'd almost guess that Nelson would eventually have gotten a DI offer from some mid-major school. He had a pretty good senior season, he was only Mr. Basketball.

As for SDSU...Wolters had 5 or 6 scholarship offers, including one from an MWC school and Dykstra was a pretty solid recruit from Iowa(he was an Iowa State commit at one point). Those are their two best players.

As for those results you mentioned, they are exhibition games.Who cares, they mean next to nothing. Put an elite DII team in the Summit and they'd probably finish around .500 or a bit worse. From the difference in athletes, coaching to travel there would be a lot to adjust to for a DII team. Sure they can hang for one game and maybe even win against a decent team but one game doesn't mean much in basketball.

[geaux_sioux]

My apologies for taking this thread off on even more of a tangent, but since the early 1990's, I actually think American basketball as a whole has taken a step back. Not from an athletic standpoint, as LeBron, for example, is incredible, but more from a fundamental standpoint. I can't really fathom how the US Olympic team can struggle to beat a comparatively unathletic team like Spain so often. Granted, other countries have gotten better in the past 20 years, but I don't think that alone explains the difference between 1992 (original Dream Team) and today.

College basketball sucks compared to what it was when the big time players would play 3 years.

Basketball in general is better than it was after Jordan retired. It took a good five to six years to improve. It seems to be declining again....

[SiouxVolley]

There is no chance NDSU's entire team from the Wooside era would have been together if NDSU was in DII, I'm not even sure if anyone outside of Moorman is even on the team if NDSU was DII and there is no way they'd be on the same team somewhere else in DII. Then you have other key contributors like Andre Smith and Mike Tveidt who definitely wouldn't have been on the team or playing in division 2 for that matter.

Plus I'd almost guess that Nelson would eventually have gotten a DI offer from some mid-major school. He had a pretty good senior season, he was only Mr. Basketball.

That Woodside NDSU team would not have been together. They were high level DII recruits and they would have been at better DII schools like Winona, Mankato, or St. Cloud. That way my point. Some of the same DII recruits that NDSU fans like to lambast now, and only became DI recruits because DI has been watered down, were the exact same ones that brought NDSU basketball to its moments of glory.

As for SDSU...Wolters had 5 or 6 scholarship offers, including one from an MWC school and Dykstra was a pretty solid recruit from Iowa(he was an Iowa State commit at one point). Those are their two best players.

If Wolters had signed with Augustana instead of SDSU at the last minute, I'm sure NDSU and SDSU fans would have cast him as a loser DII player if Augustana fans were bragging about him.

From ESPN's Grantland: http://www.grantland...ate-jackrabbits

A native of St. Cloud, Minnesota, Wolters didn't receive a Division I scholarship offer until SDSU approached him just before his senior year. Although he later picked up an offer from Colorado State, Wolters nearly chose to play at Division II Augustana College. "I always thought I was a D-II guy," he says now. "I just didn't see myself as a Division I player."

As for those results you mentioned, they are exhibition games.Who cares, they mean next to nothing. Put an elite DII team in the Summit and they'd probably finish around .500 or a bit worse. From the difference in athletes, coaching to travel there would be a lot to adjust to for a DII team. Sure they can hang for one game and maybe even win against a decent team but one game doesn't mean much in basketball.

So NDSU winning against Marquette and Wisconsin with DII recruits doesn't mean much either.

There is no question that DII doesn't get the number of players that they used to. Subtracting nearly 60 programs from DII and adding them to DI hurt both division. Also, a large number of NAIA teams have moved to DII, watering DII down further.

None of the former NCC DI schools dare place Mankato, Augustana, or Northern State on their schedules because it is much too high a risk of getting a loss.

[zonadub]

None of the former NCC DI schools dare place Mankato, Augustana, or Northern State on their schedules because it is much too high a risk of getting a loss.

I'm sorry, but I really have to call you on this one... What about Mayville and Jamestown on UND's schedule then?

[UNDBIZ]

I'm sorry, but I really have to call you on this one... What about Mayville and Jamestown on UND's schedule then?

I believe SiouxVolley was talking about the upper tier D2 teams.

[southpaw]

I'm sorry, but I really have to call you on this one... What about Mayville and Jamestown on UND's schedule then?

Mayville and Jamestown are not anywhere as close to as good as Mankato, Augustana or Northern State.

[Bison Dan]

That Woodside NDSU team would not have been together. They were high level DII recruits and they would have been at better DII schools like Winona, Mankato, or St. Cloud. That way my point. Some of the same DII recruits that NDSU fans like to lambast now, and only became DI recruits because DI has been watered down, were the exact same ones that brought NDSU basketball to its moments of glory.

If Wolters had signed with Augustana instead of SDSU at the last minute, I'm sure NDSU and SDSU fans would have cast him as a loser DII player if Augustana fans were bragging about him.

From ESPN's Grantland: http://www.grantland...ate-jackrabbits

So NDSU winning against Marquette and Wisconsin with DII recruits doesn't mean much either.

There is no question that DII doesn't get the number of players that they used to. Subtracting nearly 60 programs from DII and adding them to DI hurt both division. Also, a large number of NAIA teams have moved to DII, watering DII down further.

None of the former NCC DI schools dare place Mankato, Augustana, or Northern State on their schedules because it is much too high a risk of getting a loss.

You don't beat Wisconsin and Marquette at their house with DII players.

[SiouxVolley]

I'm sorry, but I really have to call you on this one... What about Mayville and Jamestown on UND's schedule then?

That was the point. Those teams are NAIA - lower level at that. Show me where any of UND, NDSU, SDSU, USD, or UNO schedule an upper level DII team. They don't.

[SiouxVolley]

You don't beat Wisconsin and Marquette at their house with DII players.

You really need to get a brain, Danny boy, as you can't possibly process this information. You team that went to the Dance would have been DII players if they were in the previous class.

[FargoBison]

My point was NDSU attracted a bunch of elite DII recruits(if you want to call them that) because we were going DI and that is where they wanted to be, put them all on the same team and let them play together for five years. Then with some luck the bulk of those recruits lived up to the hype, most schools don't hit three home runs in one recruiting class but NDSU did.

I'd also argue that if there were more mid-major schools in the area those players are DI recruits(especially Woodside and Nelson), there were no low major conferences around here at the time..just the Big 10, Big 12, Horizon and MVC. But now of course NDSU, SDSU, USD and UND have filled that gap.

[FargoBison]

That was the point. Those teams are NAIA - lower level at that. Show me where any of UND, NDSU, SDSU, USD, or UNO schedule an upper level DII team. They don't.

NDSU only plays local teams.

[SiouxVolley]

NDSU only plays local teams.

If they are NAIA. They don't schedule Moorhead St if it counts.

[SiouxVolley]

My point was NDSU attracted a bunch of elite DII recruits(if you want to call them that) because we were going DI and that is where they wanted to be, put them all on the same team and let them play together for five years. Then with some luck the bulk of those recruits lived up to the hype, most schools don't hit three home runs in one recruiting class but NDSU did.

I'd also argue that if there were more mid-major schools in the area those players are DI recruits(especially Woodside and Nelson), there were no low major conferences around here at the time..just the Big 10, Big 12, Horizon and MVC. But now of course NDSU, SDSU, USD and UND have filled that gap.

So the NCC as it existed before was a low major DI conference - not in name - but in talent. In that I would agree.

My point has always been that there is a fine line between upper DIII talent and low major DI talent. A number of kids in low major DI should be playing DII, and a number of kids on outstanding DII teams should have had an opportunity in DI.

As also stating previously, DII play has become worse over the years because of a huge number of shifts from DII to DI. and from NAIA to DII.

In football, there is a huge difference in scholarships between FCS and DII, but in basketball there is not. A good DII coach, like there's been at Winona, Northern St, or Metro St, could easily do well at DI schools but they chose not to move on.