Big Sky/WAC Merger

[UNDColorado]

And now this tweet by Tony Jones...

Tony Jones ‏@TonyAggieville

A group of FCS schools back east, led by James Madison and Jacksonville State, are trying to go FBS and enter the WAC

https://twitter.com/TonyAggieville

What a joke if actually true.

[IrishSiouxFan]

JMU would be a solid pickup, Jacksonville not so much. I know there are a lot of people on this board that are content with staying FCS, but I wouldn't mind seeing UND moving up to FBS now if it was done with UM, MSU, PSU, UI, NMSU, and JMU. Even NDSU and USD, and SDSU would be a nice fit. I feel that would give us and the rest of the FCS move-ups the room to grow and adjust to the next level of play. I wonder if now is the time ti take advantage of a FBS opportunity.

[UNDColorado]

JMU would be a solid pickup, Jacksonville not so much. I know there are a lot of people on this board that are content with staying FCS, but I wouldn't mind seeing UND moving up to FBS now if it was done with UM, MSU, PSU, UI, NMSU, and JMU. Even NDSU and USD, and SDSU would be a nice fit. I feel that would give us and the rest of the FCS move-ups the room to grow and adjust to the next level of play. I wonder if now is the time ti take advantage of a FBS opportunity.

I like the idea of this! But not so much if it is a hodge podge of east coast wanna-be Universities.

[IrishSiouxFan]

I like the idea of this! But not so much if it is a hodge podge of east coast wanna-be Universities.

Absolutely, it's bad enough being in a hockey conference with the likes of St. Clown State. I definitely wouldn't want to be in a football conference with Liberty, Jacksonville, and God knows who else.

[JohnboyND7]

A good read. And a dream conference for all.

http://ordinary-gent...tic-conference/

"The “big fish, little pond” thing is overrated. North Dakota State would have garnered more attention in the Idaho Potato Bowl than they did in the FCS national championship game (at least the Potato Bowl is a part of betting pools) and NDSU had to play more ignored and money-losing playoff games to get there. The MVC and CAA/A-10 have their niche, but the latter is hurting as well."

NDSU made money on the playoff games. So the quote is wrong. My cousin made money betting on the championship game, was it legal betting that I do not know.

I like the idea of this! But not so much if it is a hodge podge of east coast wanna-be Universities.

You know that JMU would probably call UND the wanna-bes. JMU has an FBS level stadium, and beat Va Tech two seasons ago. Also plays in the CAA. Also has a National Title. Just because they aren't Virginia or Maryland doesn't make them a wanna-be.

Absolutely, it's bad enough being in a hockey conference with the likes of St. Clown State. I definitely wouldn't want to be in a football conference with Liberty, Jacksonville, and God knows who else.

You'd rather be in a conference with Weber St., Northern Colorado, and Southern Utah than teams like JMU, Liberty, Jacksonville, and possibly some other quality progams possibly including Montana and Montana St?

[The Sicatoka]

The WAC has made themselves a fine mess. By taking the quick and easy solution (UTA, UTSA, TSU, DU, SU) without a plan for down the road the WAC has put themselves in a worse position than they were when Nevada, Hawaii, Frenso and SJSU bolted on them.

The WAC is lacking a true "core" to the conference. They're playing "Go Fish!" to find new members but not looking in their hand before calling out a card. They may get the card but it won't match what they have. What they are getting is renters, not buyers, of a membership in their conference. That's not a formula for success. That's not building a core group to be the backbone of a conference.

Trying to cobble together an eastern wing will only do one thing for the WAC: Two years from now, when those eastern schools finish transition from FCS to FBS they'll leave the WAC so as to not have to cross the Mississippi River for a game again. And the WAC will be just as screwed then as today, as two years ago.

If the WAC has a clue they'll press the reset button and begin to establish a core of schools, schools that are buyers, not renters, even if it means swallowing some pride today.

So, yes, I'd love UND to be in the WAC, but a WAC made up of buyers, not renters.

[JohnboyND7]

The WAC has made themselves a fine mess. By taking the quick and easy solution (UTA, UTSA, TSU, DU, SU) without a plan for down the road the WAC has put themselves in a worse position than they were when Nevada, Hawaii, Frenso and SJSU bolted on them.

The WAC is lacking a true "core" to the conference. They're playing "Go Fish!" to find new members but not looking in their hand before calling out a card. They may get the card but it won't match what they have. What they are getting is renters, not buyers, of a membership in their conference. That's not a formula for success. That's not building a core group to be the backbone of a conference.

Trying to cobble together an eastern wing will only do one thing for the WAC: Two years from now, when those eastern schools finish transition from FCS to FBS they'll leave the WAC so as to not have to cross the Mississippi River for a game again. And the WAC will be just as screwed then as today, as two years ago.

If the WAC has a clue they'll press the reset button and begin to establish a core of schools, schools that are buyers, not renters, even if it means swallowing some pride today.

So, yes, I'd love UND to be in the WAC, but a WAC made up of buyers, not renters.

I think you make very good points. Very important to be in a buyer's conference. That is one concern (thread drift) I have about the Summit.

Carry on.

[bincitysioux]

"Lighten up Francis". It was just an exercise in how to get to 15,000.

UND needs an "exercise" on how to get to just 10,000 first..............................

[Cratter]

Remember this quote Sioux Fans.

Old dominion athletic director:

"Reason No. 2 is the same for Old Dominion as it is for Alabama: money and prestige. There is simply more of both in the bottom half of the FBS than in the top half of the FCS."

FCS is old division two.

UND needs to move to FBS should the opportunity present itself. And this time not be reactive!

[Hayduke]

Remember this quote Sioux Fans.

Old dominion athletic director:

"Reason No. 2 is the same for Old Dominion as it is for Alabama: money and prestige. There is simply more of both in the bottom half of the FBS than in the top half of the FCS."

FCS is old division two.

UND needs to move to FBS should the opportunity present itself. And this time not be reactive!

I agree with you that FCS is the old Division II. As much as I have fun telling the Fargo Buffalo fans that they won the D-1 Jr. Varsity championship, I believe that it is the right division for both UND and NDSU. I can't see UND getting crowds of over 25,000 to have a truly successful D-1 FBS program. I hate to say this, but NDSU being in a much larger metro area is a better candidate for a FBS program. But, they would be at the bottom end of FBS. Would they be happier being the big fish in the little pond, or the little fish in a big pond?

[Cratter]

Isn't it about money and prestige? It's not BCS it's FBS. Say UND builds a 20000 arena, you don't think they could average 15000 playing Wyoming, UNLV, San Jose st, Fresno, Hawaii, like Idaho use to play at home. Plus home game against NDSU . People from the entire state would drive to Grand Forks to watch those games. Tons of Fargo people. Bring football to hockey's level! Und was averaging 10,000 playing Duluth and Mankato.

Random Idaho games were on Espn. You get to be in NCAA football on playstation.

[westsidesioux]

Isn't it about money and prestige? It's not BCS it's FBS. Say UND builds a 20000 arena, you don't think they could average 15000 playing Wyoming, UNLV, San Jose st, Fresno, Hawaii, like Idaho use to play at home. Plus home game against NDSU . People from the entire state would drive to Grand Forks to watch those games. Tons of Fargo people. Bring football to hockey's level! Und was averaging 10,000 playing Duluth and Mankato.

Random Idaho games were on Espn. You get to be in NCAA football on playstation.

That would be cool. Last year I used a team that someone created on Teambuilder. It was awesome...rosters pretty much matched up...it was funny having the endzones say "SIOUX" in the Kibbie Dome.

[JohnboyND7]

Isn't it about money and prestige? It's not BCS it's FBS. Say UND builds a 20000 arena, you don't think they could average 15000 playing Wyoming, UNLV, San Jose st, Fresno, Hawaii, like Idaho use to play at home. Plus home game against NDSU . People from the entire state would drive to Grand Forks to watch those games. Tons of Fargo people. Bring football to hockey's level! Und was averaging 10,000 playing Duluth and Mankato.

Random Idaho games were on Espn. You get to be in NCAA football on playstation.

I don't know if UND could average 15,000. UND was getting 10,000 playing Duluth and Mankato cause UND was having a stretch of good seasons as well as WINNING these games. If UND was playing the Wyoming's and Fresno's of the world, and getting beat down which would probably happen for awhile, attendence would not average 15,000. As long as Grand Forks is roughly the size that it is, UND would have trouble moving to FBS with a fellow Division 1 school in North Dakota's largest center of population.

Cool. You could use UND in NCAA on playstation. Totally a reason to move up and be a D- or D quality team on it every year.

I'm with Hayduke in that NDSU would be the one most situated to move up at some point. That doesn't mean NDSU would be any good, for all I know we'd suck bad, but still in the best situation to move up.

[darell1976]

"Lighten up Francis". It was just an exercise in how to get to 15,000.

How about UND telling the NCAA you get Eastern Michigan to follow the 15,000 rule first then we will follow it. EMU had what 4,000 on average last season. They constantly break that rule.

[darell1976]

I don't know if UND could average 15,000. UND was getting 10,000 playing Duluth and Mankato cause UND was having a stretch of good seasons as well as WINNING these games. If UND was playing the Wyoming's and Fresno's of the world, and getting beat down which would probably happen for awhile, attendence would not average 15,000. As long as Grand Forks is roughly the size that it is, UND would have trouble moving to FBS with a fellow Division 1 school in North Dakota's largest center of population.

Cool. You could use UND in NCAA on playstation. Totally a reason to move up and be a D- or D quality team on it every year.

I'm with Hayduke in that NDSU would be the one most situated to move up at some point. That doesn't mean NDSU would be any good, for all I know we'd suck bad, but still in the best situation to move up.

I could see it if...we played well known teams like (NDSU, Wyoming, Minnesota, etc) but also have a successful football team. We could be playing the Hurricanes but if we are 0-10 no one would show up. The two go together...even NDSU saw a decrease in attendance during their 3-8 season (of course it was up in the 13-15k range).

[Teeder11]

Pretty good analysis here on the current situation in the Big Sky/WAC/MWC. A little on the longish side, but the writer is obviously knowledgable and passionate about the subject.

I especially like the part in bold below!

The idea of just being an non-football conference is likely not favored by Denver and Seattle, because that is not an especially prestigious setup. Plus the west already has a ton of stable I-AAA conferences ahead of where an I-AAA WAC would be.

Generally schools will not travel that far for a I-AAA membership. They are regional conferences for the most part.

A I-AAA WAC would likely be forced to add most of the four western horsemen of conference shark jumping: UT Pan American, Cal State Bakersfield, Utah Valley University and Chicago State.

That foursome is a collection of low-ranked academic schools either in small markets or with local semi-pro competition in basketball (their only revenue sport) eating a lot of local entertainment dollars.

There are reasons no I-AAA or FCS conferences with an NCAA automatic tourney bid have admitted these schools.

Adding the 3 to 4 of them required would be a total kick in the teeth to Denver and Seattle and would cement the WAC in as the Summit League of the western third of the US. (The Summit League is a non-football conference that just lost one of their best basketball schools—Oral Roberts—to the Southland Conference, an FCS conference that doesn't care about basketball.)

The academically strong Seattle and Denver certainly don't want that, so crazy plan it was.

The Big Sky is not going to willingly push any of the four likely roadblocks for WAC expansion (Montana, Montana State, Portland State, or North Dakota) into the WAC. It would be equally strategically foolish to push their middle class (Weber State, Sacramento State, Northern Arizona) into the WAC without binding assurances from the WAC.

It seems a lot more likely that Fullerton is playing on Idaho's desire to be in the same conference as the Montanas.

By working with the Big Sky, Idaho doesn't have to worry about upsetting the Montanas or the other Big Sky schools. If it doesn't play out, Idaho will still have the votes to step back into the Big Sky and maybe down to the FCS level. The trouble is, there may not be a workable benefit for the WAC schools.

It seems a lot more likely that from a Big Sky perspective, this is a delaying tactic designed to foster good relations with the WAC before Hurd finds the right Big Sky schools to approach and the right angle to use. When the WAC dies, Fullerton can move in and claim Idaho.

[JohnboyND7]

I could see it if...we played well known teams like (NDSU, Wyoming, Minnesota, etc) but also have a successful football team. We could be playing the Hurricanes but if we are 0-10 no one would show up. The two go together...even NDSU saw a decrease in attendance during their 3-8 season (of course it was up in the 13-15k range).

Minnesota will not show up in Grand Forks. But like you said, UND would require to be A.) playing some decent teams at home, and B.) beating those teams consistently. Because like you said, if UND was not having a good year, you can bet the Alerus would be empty. NDSU would be able to get away with it better because of the "Football is King in Fargo" law.

[darell1976]

Pretty good analysis here on the current situation in the Big Sky/WAC/MWC. A little on the longish side, but the writer is obviously knowledgable and passionate about the subject.

I especially like the part in bold below!

Adding the 3 to 4 of them required would be a total kick in the teeth to Denver and Seattle and would cement the WAC in as the Summit League of the western third of the US. (The Summit League is a non-football conference that just lost one of their best basketball schools—Oral Roberts—to the Southland Conference, an FCS conference that doesn't care about basketball.)

Ouch!!! A kick in the teeth for the 3 Dakota schools. If it wasn't for the MVFC those 3 would be begging UND to get into the Big Sky.

[darell1976]

Minnesota will not show up in Grand Forks. But like you said, UND would require to be A.) playing some decent teams at home, and B.) beating those teams consistently. Because like you said, if UND was not having a good year, you can bet the Alerus would be empty. NDSU would be able to get away with it better because of the "Football is King in Fargo" law.

If UND was FBS you really can't say Minnesota wouldn't show up. Fans aren't really going to show up at TCF if they keep losing to teams like NDSU, and USD.

[JohnboyND7]

Pretty good analysis here on the current situation in the Big Sky/WAC/MWC. A little on the longish side, but the writer is obviously knowledgable and passionate about the subject.

I especially like the part in bold below!

The bolded part doesn't mention that they moved to the Southland from what I have heard, for about 2 reasons. Baseball is Oral Roberts biggest sport. Southland is higher quality. Reason two, they were not happy that the Summit tourney for basketball was going to be in Sioux Falls rather than Tulsa from now on and they were no longer the kings of the conference.

But yes, that seemed like a fair assessment.

Ouch!!! A kick in the teeth for the 3 Dakota schools. If it wasn't for the MVFC those 3 would be begging UND to get into the Big Sky.

MVFC isn't going anywhere.

[The Sicatoka]

Idaho has not averaged 15000 for the last three seasons (and five of the last six).

You (supposedly) have to average 15000 (tickets sold or actual attendance) once every two years on a rolling basis. EMU has a 5000 year and then a 15001 year (because their rival comes ot their house) and then a 5000 year ... (repeat ad nauseum).

The NCAA needs to be serious: Why does attendance matter, especially if it's unenforced? Shouldn't the issue be what's best for student-athletes? If the school can afford the scholarships, aren't more scholarship opportunities better for student-athletes?

Attendance data: http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/public/NCAA/Resources/Stats/Football/Attendance/index.html

[JohnboyND7]

If UND was FBS you really can't say Minnesota wouldn't show up. Fans aren't really going to show up at TCF if they keep losing to teams like NDSU, and USD.

I don't think Minnesota would have any interest in showing up in one of the Dakota's to play a football game unless they had to. MAYBE if one of the Dakota schools accomplished something at the FBS level.

[darell1976]

The bolded part doesn't mention that they moved to the Southland from what I have heard, for about 2 reasons. Baseball is Oral Roberts biggest sport. Southland is higher quality. Reason two, they were not happy that the Summit tourney for basketball was going to be in Sioux Falls rather than Tulsa from now on and they were no longer the kings of the conference.

But yes, that seemed like a fair assessment.

MVFC isn't going anywhere.

Thats the only thing that is keeping the 3 in the Summit...hopes of the 3 joining the MVC in olympic sports.

[darell1976]

I don't think Minnesota would have any interest in showing up in one of the Dakota's to play a football game unless they had to. MAYBE if one of the Dakota schools accomplished something at the FBS level.

If it were to benefit the Gophers SOS for a postseason berth, (oh wait...Gophers in the postseason. )

[Cratter]

Gotta love not playing a game in the big sky yet reporters/bloggers consider us upper class:

"The Big Sky is not going to willingly push any of the four likely roadblocks for WAC expansion (Montana, Montana State, Portland State, or North Dakota) into the WAC.  It would be equally strategically foolish to push their middle class (Weber State, Sacramento State, Northern Arizona) into the WAC without binding assurances from the WAC."