ND Supreme Court Rules against the NDSBoHE

[ScottM]

If it turned out they weren't bluffing our players would then become forever immortalized as martyrs, and more importantly the NCAA would make themselves look very foolish live on ESPNU. The whole nation would then see this unfold and see the NCAA as the hateful racist organization that they are. It would possibly be the beginning of the end of the NCAA. Who knows how bad the backlash would be against them?

God you really are high. The NC$$ doesn't care about "bad press", or some fanciful "backlash". Nor do they care about some flyover state's laws. If they did, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion. They've been pushing their agenda for years, and they aren't stopping because a bunch of ignorant Norwegians think their vote actually matters outside of the state in June or November. They have UND's student-athletes by the "short and curlies" and that's about it. Your half-baked concept of "martyrdom" has no resonance with them, or with the athletes wearing UND unis.

[82SiouxGuy]

Spoken like a true nickname opponent.

Actually, it was spoken like a realist and true University of North Dakota supporter.

[jdub27]

Spoken like a true nickname opponent.

Spoken like someone who lives in their own reality and only cares about what immediately impacts them personally with no regard for others.

[jdub27]

warped view

Fixed.

[82SiouxGuy]

By "true University of North Dakota supporter" what you really mean is somebody who is willing to trade the Fighting Sioux team for a team of a different name. You just want a team, and you could care less if it is the same team we all grew up rooting for. Shame on you (and those who share your warped view). A real UND Fighting Sioux fan would say I want my Fighting Sioux team or no team at all. Now go ahead and have the last word that you so desperately crave, I am done for tonight.

Only someone with a warped sense of priorities would say they want their Fighting Sioux team or no team at all. That is exemplified by your unbelievable theory that it won't be the same team just because it has a different nickname. I don't know anyone else that has the same theory. I grew up rooting for the University of North Dakota and I will continue to root for UND, no matter what their nickname is.

Thanks for the last word. If only it were permanent.

[Siouxperfan7]

By "true University of North Dakota supporter" what you really mean is somebody who is willing to trade the Fighting Sioux team for a team of a different name. You just want a team, and you could care less if it is the same team we all grew up rooting for. Shame on you (and those who share your warped view). A real UND Fighting Sioux fan would say I want my Fighting Sioux team or no team at all. Now go ahead and have the last word that you so desperately crave, I am done for tonight.

Dave, you are clearly not a fan of the University of North Dakota. You are a fan of the Fighting Sioux name and logo only. I see your point for fighting for the name. I am right there with you. I was all for suing the NCAA. I was for (at the time) the bill that was passed in the ND house and senate. I love the Fighting Sioux name and all it stands for. But we have come to a point where we have no other options. The sanctions are real and are already affecting recruiting. If we continue to live with the sanctions, other teams will be affected by them. Not being able to host a playoff game is a BIG deal. Getting kicked out if the BIG Sky is a big deal. Do you think another conference is going to want us?? NO!!! The NCAA is not going to go away. If you believe that, you are certifiably insane!! It is time to too what is right for the University. I am a fan of the University of North Dakota. Have been for as long as I can remember. I was all for keeping the name. But the cost of keeping it now would be catastrophic for the University and its athletic department. You need to get educated on the facts.

[The Sicatoka]

There is something very admirable about martyrdom.

Especially when you're not the martyr. For the martyr, you're dead.

Would have been fun to see their bluff called.

It wasn't a bluff by the NCAA.

They were looking for a flagrant violation to make an example of UND.

How can I say that?

Over the weekend I talked with a UND athlete who played in an NCAA tournament.

[choyt3]

Question... Were team warmups with hostile imagery also considered a "flagrant violation"?

[Goon]

God you really are high.

And probably incredibly drunk as well.

[Benny Baker]

If it turned out they weren't bluffing our players would then become forever immortalized as martyrs, and more importantly the NCAA would make themselves look very foolish live on ESPNU. The whole nation would then see this unfold and see the NCAA as the hateful racist organization that they are. It would possibly be the beginning of the end of the NCAA. Who knows how bad the backlash would be against them?

What if the NCAA allowed the game to take place, perhaps even the whole regional? Then they would convene and make a ruling after the fact, which found that UND's wearing of the "sioux" imagery resulted in a forfeit. UND's wins/participation would be vacated/voided. Don't know if the backlash would be as large.

[82SiouxGuy]

Question... Were team warmups with hostile imagery also considered a "flagrant violation"?

Yes. Anything shown by any of the official traveling party, including the band and cheerleaders, could have been considered a flagrant violation. So warmups would have definitely been considered a violation.

[82SiouxGuy]

What if the NCAA allowed the game to take place, perhaps even the whole regional? Then they would convene and make a ruling after the fact, which found that UND's wearing of the "sioux" imagery resulted in a forfeit. UND's wins/participation would be vacated/voided. Don't know if the backlash would be as large.

My guess is that they would have allowed the game to be played rather than make a scene. After the game it would be announced that the game was a forfeit. I don't think they would have allowed the entire regional to finish if the violation was in the first game.

[choyt3]

The entire team delegation including coaches, players, & training staff, wore warmups on Sunday before the regional championship game to and from their morning skate. Should we be expecting a forfeit to Western Michigan to be announced soon?

Oh, and speaking of "hostile" nicknames... http://www.startribune.com/local/146751655.html http://www.change.org/petitions/sign-to-save-the-edina-hornettes

[82SiouxGuy]

The entire team delegation including coaches, players, & training staff, wore warmups on Sunday before the regional championship game to and from their morning skate. Should we be expecting a forfeit to Western Michigan to be announced soon?

Oh, and speaking of "hostile" nicknames... http://www.startribu.../146751655.html http://www.change.or...edina-hornettes

They wouldn't have to forfeit to Western Michigan if they wore them the day after the game. Maybe the NCAA staff didn't notice. Maybe they only planned to enforce for the game itself. Maybe UND got permission. The letter that was sent to UND said that if anyone affiliated with UND was seen with a logo it could result in a forfeit.

[Chewey]

The entire team delegation including coaches, players, & training staff, wore warmups on Sunday before the regional championship game to and from their morning skate. Should we be expecting a forfeit to Western Michigan to be announced soon?

Oh, and speaking of "hostile" nicknames... http://www.startribu.../146751655.html http://www.change.or...edina-hornettes

The entire team delegation including coaches, players, & training staff, wore warmups on Sunday before the regional championship game to and from their morning skate. Should we be expecting a forfeit to Western Michigan to be announced soon?

Oh, and speaking of "hostile" nicknames... http://www.startribu.../146751655.html http://www.change.or...edina-hornettes

Exactly. At the regionals, I was visiting with someone from Traverse City, MI who is a junior at Central Michigan. He said that they go by the nickname "Fighting Chips" of all things. And, he said that some of the opponents have mockingly used "buffalo chips" or "cow pies" to refer to them, shirts, etc. If anyone has ever attended the Richland County Fair in Sidney, MT, you'd know what "chip throwing" is. Apparently, the NCAA is ok with this sort of thing though.

[82SiouxGuy]

The entire team delegation including coaches, players, & training staff, wore warmups on Sunday before the regional championship game to and from their morning skate. Should we be expecting a forfeit to Western Michigan to be announced soon?

Oh, and speaking of "hostile" nicknames... http://www.startribu.../146751655.html http://www.change.or...edina-hornettes

I went back and checked the letter and it spells out your answer.

2. If the university accepts an invitation to participate in any postseason competition, the NCAA policy requires that student-athletes, band, cheerleading, dance and mascot uniforms and paraphernalia not have hostile or abusive racial/ethnic/national original references during the NCAA championship competition.

So they could wear the warmups for the morning skate as long as they were not around during the game itself.

[82SiouxGuy]

Exactly. At the regionals, I was visiting with someone from Traverse City, MI who is a junior at Central Michigan. He said that they go by the nickname "Fighting Chips" of all things. And, he said that some of the opponents have mockingly used "buffalo chips" or "cow pies" to refer to them, shirts, etc. If anyone has ever attended the Richland County Fair in Sidney, MT, you'd know what "chip throwing" is. Apparently, the NCAA is ok with this sort of thing though.

The local Chippewa tribe gave Central Michigan permission to use the name right away. I don't think that the NCAA is OK with the different things that happen at Central Michigan or the activities at Florida State. But they are living up to the policy they set up. At some point in the future the NCAA will take their next step and eliminate the rest of the Native American names, in part because of activities like you mentioned.

[choyt3]

They wouldn't have to forfeit to Western Michigan if they wore them the day after the game. Maybe the NCAA staff didn't notice. Maybe they only planned to enforce for the game itself. Maybe UND got permission. The letter that was sent to UND said that if anyone affiliated with UND was seen with a logo it could result in a forfeit.

Permission? I thought these sanctions were absolute? Is the imagery offensive, or not? If it is, then it shouldn't be tolerated. Ever.

I said Western Michigan because it is highly unlikely even the NCAA would rule the game vs. Minnesota a forfeit, since it was a loss.

It wouldn't be a big leap to surmise that the UND delegation wore warmups with "hostile" imagery on the day of the regional semifinal as well, a blatant violation of NCAA sanctions.

[Chewey]

The entire team delegation including coaches, players, & training staff, wore warmups on Sunday before the regional championship game to and from their morning skate. Should we be expecting a forfeit to Western Michigan to be announced soon?

Oh, and speaking of "hostile" nicknames... http://www.startribu.../146751655.html http://www.change.or...edina-hornettes

More of the gender-neutral garbage. It's dehumanizing, disrespectful and an acquiescence to "gender stereotypes" to utilize masculine and feminine pronouns. Just the sort of thing one would find in Merrifield Hall. When you have this sort of garbage being propagated through today's "prose" and being taught at universities and high schools and when you have the same thick and synapse-dulled types wanting to ban Hemingway, Faulkner, Thomas Hardy, and Walt Whitman (he was gay, so one would have thought he surely would be accorded a "pass") and Mark Twain you know there's something rotten in Denmark. Hemingway is seen as too macho and anti-woman, the phrase "barbaric yawp" in "Song of Myself" apparently did it for Whitman, the "N" work in Huck Finn did it for Twain, "Tess of the "D'Urbevilles" did it for Thomas Hardy (evidently a woman who loses her virginity to some guy and then is rejected by another guy because of said loss of virginity was just too much for the feminists - it's one of Hardy's best novels - complete failure to see that Hardy was obviously criticizing that mindset). Faulkner's portrayal of Caddy as "loose" in "The Sound and the Fury" did it for him.

[choyt3]

I went back and checked the letter and it spells out your answer.

So they could wear the warmups for the morning skate as long as they were not around during the game itself.

It could be argued that the entirety of the regional is considered the championship competition. They can't possibly be referring to only the actual playing of the games themselves, if that's the gray area.

[fightingsioux4life]

Dave, you are clearly not a fan of the University of North Dakota. You are a fan of the Fighting Sioux name and logo only. I see your point for fighting for the name. I am right there with you. I was all for suing the NCAA. I was for (at the time) the bill that was passed in the ND house and senate. I love the Fighting Sioux name and all it stands for. But we have come to a point where we have no other options. The sanctions are real and are already affecting recruiting. If we continue to live with the sanctions, other teams will be affected by them. Not being able to host a playoff game is a BIG deal. Getting kicked out if the BIG Sky is a big deal. Do you think another conference is going to want us?? NO!!! The NCAA is not going to go away. If you believe that, you are certifiably insane!! It is time to too what is right for the University. I am a fan of the University of North Dakota. Have been for as long as I can remember. I was all for keeping the name. But the cost of keeping it now would be catastrophic for the University and its athletic department. You need to get educated on the facts.

What you have to understand about the nickname-at-all-costs crowd is that anything and everything that happens as a result of keeping the name and logo is "a small price to pay":

-No conference home in the Big Sky? A small price to pay.

-A growing list of schools that will not play us in any sport? A small price to pay.

-No home playoff games? A small price to pay.

-Forfeiting playoff games to make a point? A small price to pay.

-Losing recruits because of the sanctions? A small price to pay.

There is no telling what other garbage they will come up with; I honestly don't want to think about it.

If all these things come to pass and UND athletics are destroyed for at least a generation, their answer will be the same: "It's a small price to pay to keep the Fighting Sioux name and logo!".

Now back to Planet Earth where the rest of us reside.

[The Sicatoka]

Is the imagery offensive, or not? If it is, then it shouldn't be tolerated. Ever.

That's more the "Why is FSU allowed their logo?" argument.

I know of one "Oops!" where UND used the logo, self-reported immediately, and the NCAA gave an "OK" because it was a pure oversight and completely unintentional. (It was in a spot you'd never think to look for a logo to remove and not something the general public would normally see.) Those who watched the UND/WMU game very, very observantly may have seen it.

[Goon]

At least you're willing to admit that having the last word is important to you.

Do you have to be such a child?

[fightingsioux4life]

Do you have to be such a child?

I am afraid the answer to that question is yes.

[Siouxperfan7]

That's more the "Why is FSU allowed their logo?" argument.

I know of one "Oops!" where UND used the logo, self-reported immediately, and the NCAA gave an "OK" because it was a pure oversight and completely unintentional. (It was in a spot you'd never think to look for a logo to remove and not something the general public would normally see.) Those who watched the UND/WMU game very, very observantly may have seen it.

Where was it?