GF Herald's Wayne Nelson calling UND "Green and White"

[fightingsioux4life]

Has anyone noticed that Wayne Nelson of the Grand Forks Heraldo has been calling UND the "Green and White" since the nickname retirement took effect? I honestly wish he would knock it off. If he keeps calling us that, people will get the hairbrained idea to make that our new nickname. I can just picture opening up my Sunday Herald and turning to the Insight section and seeing Mike Jacob's mug next to the "Matters at Hand" column with the headline "Green and White Solid Choice for UND's New Name" or some other garbage like that.

Any talk about a new name should wait until the cooling off period is over. I don't want to end up with "Green and White" or "Sundogs" or anything stupid like that.

[82SiouxGuy]

People want to use nicknames for sports teams. The school name, or even using North Dakota, just isn't a good substitute. Using the school colors has been done many times before during a transition or even for a school's new nickname. You don't have to look any further than Grand Forks Central when they dropped the Redskins name. Green or green and white have been used in chants at UND already so it makes sense that someone would use them for a nickname.

This is why the 3 year cooling off period wasn't a great idea. It's also why tSic has always said that you need to control the name or someone else will. Green and White isn't going to stick as a new nickname. A different name will be chosen, and a lot of people aren't going to like it no matter what they choose. It would have been good if a process could have been in place with a reasonable timeline, but that isn't possible because of the cooling off period. So you can expect people to use Green and White or something else as a nickname until a new one is chosen, or the Sioux name is somehow brought back.

[The Sicatoka]

It's also why tSic has always said that you need to control the name or someone else will.

{WARNING -- my four favorite words to follow}

I. Told. You. So.

Now read my signature.

[Teeder11]

Has anyone noticed that Wayne Nelson of the Grand Forks Heraldo has been calling UND the "Green and White" since the nickname retirement took effect? I honestly wish he would knock it off. If he keeps calling us that, people will get the hairbrained idea to make that our new nickname. I can just picture opening up my Sunday Herald and turning to the Insight section and seeing Mike Jacob's mug next to the "Matters at Hand" column with the headline "Green and White Solid Choice for UND's New Name" or some other garbage like that.

Any talk about a new name should wait until the cooling off period is over. I don't want to end up with "Green and White" or "Sundogs" or anything stupid like that.

Relax. There's no vast conspiracy taking place before your eyes. Wayne, Tom Miller, Schloss, Virg before him, and Kevin Fee, when he was there, and countless other sports writers that have been at the Herald have been using the term "Green and White" for decades as a substitute for "Fighting Sioux" and "UND" in their writings. Before you might have read right over it without even thinking about it; now you are more sensitive to it, and rightly so.

My access to online Herald archives, which go back to 1995, show more than 4,100 references to the term "Green and White," and many of them are instances where "Green and White" was used as a substitute for "Fighting Sioux," or "Sioux." And I would wager a bet that I would find thousands more examples if the archives went farther back than 1995.

"Green and White" also is the common term that is associated with the annual spring football game at UND, as in the "Green and White intersquad game."

Below is the earliest example that I can find in the Herald archives. It is from a UND hockey game story about a series with Alaska Anchorage. Notice the quote from then-UND coach Dean Blais. I never knew Blais as someone who was anti-nickname or someone who wanted the name change to something else.

BY Herald Staff Report

November 20, 1995

If Alaska Anchorage ever has any thoughts of playing somewhere else than in the Western Collegiate Hockey Association, the Seawolves would probably get UND's vote to move on.

For the eighth straight time, the Seawolves beat the Sioux in Anchorage late Saturday night, this time tacking a 7-3 victory on top of Friday's 4-2 win over UND. Last year, the only team Anchorage swept all year was UND. The weekend sweep this time marked Anchorage's first of this season. ``They like playing against the Green and White, evidentally,'' UND coach Dean Blais said.

Take the usage of "Green and White" for what it is: something that Herald reporters have been doing for years. Not some silly plan to sneakily and subliminally plant the seed for a new nickname in the collective mind of the public that reads their sports stories.

[fightingsioux4life]

Relax. There's no vast conspiracy taking place before your eyes. Wayne, Tom Miller, Schloss, Virg before him, and Kevin Fee, when he was there, and countless other sports writers that have been at the Herald have been using the term "Green and White" for decades as a substitute for "Fighting Sioux" and "UND" in their writings. Before you might have read right over it without even thinking about it; now you are more sensitive to it, and rightly so.

My access to online Herald archives, which go back to 1995, show more than 4,100 references to the term "Green and White," and many of them are instances where "Green and White" was used as a substitute for "Fighting Sioux," or "Sioux." And I would wager a bet that I would find thousands more examples if the archives went farther back than 1995.

"Green and White" also is the common term that is associated with the annual spring football game at UND, as in the "Green and White intersquad game."

Below is the earliest example that I can find in the Herald archives. It is from a UND hockey game story about a series with Alaska Anchorage. Notice the quote from then-UND coach Dean Blais. I never knew Blais as someone who was anti-nickname or someone who wanted the name change to something else.

Take the usage of "Green and White" for what it is: something that Herald reporters have been doing for years. Not some silly plan to sneakily and subliminally plant the seed for a new nickname in the collective mind of the public that reads their sports stories.

I don't think there is a conspiracy about it, but when a prominent media outlet like the Herald uses a term enough, it will develop a place in our minds and in our psyche and it could develop a life of its own. That is all I am concerned about. I want our new name (whatever it is) to be able to stand the test of time and to give us a solid identity so that marketing the athletic department and school are easier.

[Teeder11]

I don't think there is a conspiracy about it, but when a prominent media outlet like the Herald uses a term enough, it will develop a place in our minds and in our psyche and it could develop a life of its own. That is all I am concerned about. I want our new name (whatever it is) to be able to stand the test of time and to give us a solid identity so that marketing the athletic department and school are easier.

Point is they've been using it for years, even decades. It is nothing new. You just are noticing it now because of the loss of the nickname and the emotions are still so raw.

[Chewey]

Look no further than the electronic boards at the women's hockey game today. "Pride of the North" is being used a lot, or at least it was today. "Force of the North" is taken, mind you, but "Pride of the North" is wide open. If either some stupid animal that's used by 100 schools or an asinine weather pheonomenon will not work, just pick a tired emotion out of the hat. I don't think anyone gets it. You're not in control of the nickname process or any future nickname. Why deceive yourselves into thinking that you are? Only the "stakeholders'" opinions will matter and, guess what, none of us is a "stakeholder" irrespective of what Kelley says. It will be something completely inane like "Pride of the North" or "sUNDogs" or something equally stupid. "Control what's yours to control"? The newsflash that you're missing is that it's not yours to control at all. The nickname will not be brought back if the petition process fails irrespective of the litigation because Kelley, Faison, Shaft, etc. will say that the money's already been spent to erase it and more money will not be spent to bring it back. This is why the petition process must go hand in hand with the litigation. Shaft lied about Notre Dame's supposed concern with the nickname and logo. Kelley and Faison and Shaft misrepresented the whole Big Sky issue to the state legislature. They are not entitled to any credibility. UND was already in as of November, 2010 and schedules had been set out for two years and it would take a nearly unanimous vote of the Presidents of an economically faltering and attendance depressed conference to determine otherwise. The Big Sky needs UND moreso than UND needs it. UND has money and it has great attendance and it has a rabidly loyal and well-traveled fan base. Were it not for the Montana schools, who want to go to the Mountain West Conference as I understand it, the Big Sky would already be a memory. You're not in control. Passivity and a proclivity for assuming as fact propaganda fed irresponsibly by Kelley, Faison and Shaft only will reinforce that mindset held by the real "stakeholders." Several counts of the complaint appear to have significant merit to me, particularly the anti-trust provisions. However, the petition process is an essential augmentation to the litigation process. As I've said before, Kelley, Faison and Shaft and the SBoHE have gone beyond the point of no return on this issue. Name stays/comes back, they go. Name goes/stays gone, they stay. Pretty simple.

[The Sicatoka]

The reason the stakeholders have lost control of their ability to select a new nickname is because they willingly gave up the opportunity to take control. They didn't take my advice: Control what is yours to control! And they should have demanded control because they were the ones who were losing the most to appease the NCAA.

Rather than insisting that Kelley move ahead with the transition to a new nickname (as some wisely advised), they sat in a corner and pouted, insisting that no nickname was just fine with them. And when the SBoHE should have challenged the legislature's authority to control UND's choice of a nickname, they punted.

The true believers among the "Fighting Sioux moniker or die!" faithful thought they won something when the legislature mandated a three-year no-nickname "cooling off" (i.e. pray for a miracle) period. Epic. Fail.

The longer we keep punting on this the more likely it is that UND will end up with some pap and claptrap, inoffensive-to-all nickname. By the time whomever decides who decides that it's time for a new nickname, the "Fighting Sioux moniker or die" stakeholders will be an even smaller, more marginalized, easy-to-forget and easier-to-ignore group.

It's time to control what is our to control.

[darell1976]

It was a cheer too: Green and White fight, fight, fight. Its too bad they got rid of FIght On Sioux.

[Hayduke]

It's time to control what is our to control.

If this lawsuit would run its course much quicker, then I believe the holdouts will come on board to take control and change the name. I wish the SL tribe and the other luck, but I doubt it will be settled in the favor of the Fighting Sioux nickname. In the meantime, we are are stuck in a holding pattern.

[Let'sGoHawks!]

Sicatoka and others: please elaborate on how "we" would have more control over a new name now, as opposed to 2 or 3 years from now. Aren't we rubes now and rubes in the future?

Edit: I guess I'm asking how is it controllable now? Aren't the PC leaders in charge now AND 2 or 3 years from now?

[The Sicatoka]

We lost control when we didn't demand an immediate transition from Sioux to something new. Instead, the "Sioux moniker or die" crowd got control with the "we'll run without a moniker" non-sense and now we're in limbo and subject to the whims of whatever media outlet prints today. I warned of this. I told you so. And now were stuck.

Honestly, ask your legislator to dump the "cooling off" period law. Nothing will cool in that time.

[The Sicatoka]

Its too bad they got rid of FIght On Sioux.

So we use what we have. Example? How the hockey team was called to the ice last weekend was cumbersome and it just didn't flow. I respectfully submit the following ...

"Ladies and gentlemen, Stand Up and Cheer, here comes North Dakota!"

<band starts playing "Stand Up and Cheer">

(That's a freebee for you Looker and Hajdu, and I know you're listening. )

[ScottM]

By the time whomever decides who decides that it's time for a new nickname, the "Fighting Sioux moniker or die" stakeholders will be an even smaller, more marginalized, easy-to-forget and easier-to-ignore group.

I wouldn't call those people "stakeholders". They only have a "stake" in the Sioux moniker, not the university itself.

UND can't really control its own moniker as long as certain people insist on treating the issue as a political one. That goes for Clueless Al, and his equally clueless acolytes passing out petitions, etc.

[Fetch]

I say signing the petition & passing the law will bring it forward faster & get the sheep to whine & cry enough & if SL wins maybe they will even push the Admin. to do the right thing & change the name to Spirit Lake Sioux - if not even if Spirit Lake wins I fear UND Admin. will say it's too late & keep the scared sheep whining & crying to change the name baaa baaa baaa

[Fetch]

If it passes & SL loses then it can be voted on again - but scared sheep don't want to fight to save the name baa baa baa

[ScottM]

I say signing the petition & passing the law will bring it forward faster & get the sheep to whine & cry enough & if SL wins maybe they will even push the Admin. to do the right thing & change the name to Spirit Lake Sioux - if not even if Spirit Lake wins I fear UND Admin. will say it's too late & keep the scared sheep whining & crying to change the name baaa baaa baaa

I just wanted to save this "logic" for my own amusement.

[The Sicatoka]

That goes for Clueless Al, and his equally clueless acolytes passing out petitions, etc.

I wonder how many people signing that petition about "a constitutional amendment" realize they mean the state constitution (how many realize there is a state constitution?) and that the state constitution has no power outside the borders of the state of North Dakota and as such the NCAA does not have to acknowledge it.

[UNDBIZ]

I say signing the petition & passing the law will bring it forward faster & get the sheep to whine & cry enough & if SL wins maybe they will even push the Admin. to do the right thing & change the name to Spirit Lake Sioux - if not even if Spirit Lake wins I fear UND Admin. will say it's too late & keep the scared sheep whining & crying to change the name baaa baaa baaa

[ScottM]

I wonder how many people signing that petition about "a constitutional amendment" realize they mean the state constitution (how many realize there is a state constitution?) and that the state constitution has no power outside the borders of the state of North Dakota and as such the NCAA does not have to acknowledge it.

If this board is any indication ... mmm, probably none.

[Goon]

It will be something completely inane like "Pride of the North" or "sUNDogs" or something equally stupid. "Control what's yours to control"?

I would be very unhappy if they changed the name to SUNDOGS, I think that might be the straw that broke the camels back.

[Chewey]

The reason the stakeholders have lost control of their ability to select a new nickname is because they willingly gave up the opportunity to take control. They didn't take my advice: Control what is yours to control! And they should have demanded control because they were the ones who were losing the most to appease the NCAA.

Rather than insisting that Kelley move ahead with the transition to a new nickname (as some wisely advised), they sat in a corner and pouted, insisting that no nickname was just fine with them. And when the SBoHE should have challenged the legislature's authority to control UND's choice of a nickname, they punted.

The true believers among the "Fighting Sioux moniker or die!" faithful thought they won something when the legislature mandated a three-year no-nickname "cooling off" (i.e. pray for a miracle) period. Epic. Fail.

The longer we keep punting on this the more likely it is that UND will end up with some pap and claptrap, inoffensive-to-all nickname. By the time whomever decides who decides that it's time for a new nickname, the "Fighting Sioux moniker or die" stakeholders will be an even smaller, more marginalized, easy-to-forget and easier-to-ignore group.

It's time to control what is our to control.

No, no and no. The same PC stakeholders who would have to be appeased now will have to be appeased 3 years from now. The whole process began as a surreal clusterf##$#! the day the surrender agreement was signed. It became even more of a joke during the 3 year period thereafter via the handling by a completely duplicitous, erractic, incompetent and mercurial SBoHE. I don't know how or why you would believe that you or we would have any semblance of control over the issue via the same panoply (yes, this particular word is used for irony in this particular context) of characters. Look, the people who are in control are the ones who have a unique penchant for incessant bitching and who evidently have a perennial employment - or at least a boredom -- problem. The ones whom you think can usurp that crowd have a proclivity for passifying that same crowd for fear that said crowd will never stop bitching and will never go away. What needs to happen to have any control and what has needed to happen to have any control is for the 2nd much larger group to tell the excessively miniscule 1st group to pound sand or just deal with it. The only people willing to do so have been, evidently, the members of the Spirit Lake Tribe and the people suing the NCAA and circulating and signing the petitions. We do not have control. We have not had control. We will not have control. The position that one has control over an issue where a select and miniscule group essentially has veto power is a fallacy. It's at least as much of a fallacy, if not more of one, as your position that the petitioners are out of line by thinking that they can change the position of the NCAA by what they're doing. Whether it's smart or not or misguided or not, they're at least doing something. Contrast this with the pablum from Kelley, Faison and Shaft who publicly propound that all "stakeholders" will have a "voice" but then really just acquiesce to the same miniscule crowd that has had the real control/voice from the very beginning. Such control has always been essentially ceded to them via lack of backbone on the part of other people and via the lack of any demand for a backbone by still other people.

[darell1976]

So we use what we have. Example? How the hockey team was called to the ice last weekend was cumbersome and it just didn't flow. I respectfully submit the following ...

"Ladies and gentlemen, Stand Up and Cheer, here comes North Dakota!"

<band starts playing "Stand Up and Cheer">

(That's a freebee for you Looker and Hajdu, and I know you're listening. )

Or rename the song Fight On Sioux to Fight On U. It doesn't sound that good but most people like me just like the music.

[05grad]

Considering "Pride of the North" is currently in use at UND as the name of the marching/pep bands, I would doubt it ends up being the nickname for the entire sports program.

[darell1976]

Even the Maroon and Grey at Central lasted only 2 years.