Kelley / SBoHE Deceived the Legislature and ND People

[Cratter]

Is that a serious question?

Yes. Because it was already in the conference? Money? Tradition?

Would any of those really mattered to WCHA/NCHC presidents more than Big Sky and its potentials?

I mean it's pretty easy for Bruce McClown to have come out and say UND needs to change its name or it will no longer compete in the WCHA.

[82SiouxGuy]

With special exceptions? Sounds like there is already one hole in that "constitution."

If there was, by the slightest chance, UND might readopt the Sioux name, It would be after the summer anyways. After UND is in the Big Sky.

It isn't a "hole in the constitution", it's the clause that allows schools to have sports that the Big Sky doesn't sponsor. An obvious example, it allows UND to keep hockey and have the teams be members of the WCHA or NCHC. Without a clause like that they would not have allowed UND in at all unless the school dumped hockey, swimming and any other sports that the Big Sky does not sponsor. That clause has absolutely nothing to do with the nickname either now or the future. It shows that UND doesn't qualify as a full member of the league until it meets the requirements of the NCAA for full Division I membership. That should happen in July unless something prevents UND from finishing the transition.

[Cratter]

It isn't a "hole in the constitution", it's the clause that allows schools to have sports that the Big Sky doesn't sponsor. An obvious example, it allows UND to keep hockey and have the teams be members of the WCHA or NCHC. Without a clause like that they would not have allowed UND in at all unless the school dumped hockey, swimming and any other sports that the Big Sky does not sponsor. That clause has absolutely nothing to do with the nickname either now or the future. It shows that UND doesn't qualify as a full member of the league until it meets the requirements of the NCAA for full Division I membership. That should happen in July unless something prevents UND from finishing the transition.

That was a long ramble about nothing.

Obviously Sioux Hockey can be in the NCHC. That is exactly what the Big Sky Constitution was saying.

I was talking about Cal Poly and UC Davis, as I thought you might catch on to that. Affiliate membership. I looked it up they have that section too. They don't get a voting say.

[82SiouxGuy]

That was a long ramble about nothing.

Obviously Sioux Hockey can be in the NCHC. That is exactly what the Big Sky Constitution was saying.

I was talking about Cal Poly and UC Davis, as I thought you might catch on to that. As apparently there is exceptions in their constitution apparently.

Article V Section 3 Affiliate Membership

A. Affiliate members may be accepted to the Big Sky Conference in a given sport by a two-thirds (2/3) vote of the member institutions.

B. Affiliate membership may be permitted in those sports where additional sponsoring institutions are needed to conduct championships.

C. Affiliate member institutions may not vote on Conference matters.

D. Those institutions applying for affiliate membership must be Division I in that sport.

I didn't catch on to what you were suggesting because Poly and Davis are covered under Section 3 Affiliate Membership as listed above. Section 2 refers to full membership. Poly and Davis are not currently, nor are they scheduled to be, full members of the Big Sky. They will be Affiliate members for football only. The NCAA does not allow membership in more than 1 conference in a given sport, and both Poly and Davis were members of the Great West for the football season. I'm not sure when their membership would transfer to the Big Sky, at the end of the football season or perhaps on July 1 when the NCAA calendar changes to the new year. Still not a "hole in the constitution".

[Cratter]

It would be grossly negligent for anyone in a leadership position with the University or the State to assume its not a possibility.

Apparently after UND is "officially" in the conference. They couldn't kick UND out of the conference for having a "hostile and abusive" nickname.

The Big Sky Constitution states:

Section 7: Explusion and Suspension

The Presidents Council shall have the power, by affirmative vote of all member institutions, except the institution involved, to expel or suspend any member who violates the rules and regulations of the conference. Final action on expulsion or suspension shall not be taken in the same meeting at which the action is proposed.

The Big Sky has no rules on nicknames for UND to violate.

Furthermore, the Big Sky could have written something in the clause about acceptance (like the Summit apparently) about the nickname if it was an issue. But it never was.

Instead the Commissioner of the Big Sky sent UND a letter stating

This

membership shall be considered active immediately upon the receipt of your

acceptance of this offer;

Which Kelley signed. And if you are Kelley would believe the above sentence and have not reason to believe the Sioux nickname would have been a "deterrent" to joining since signed a letter stating you were a member from the Commissioner.

Instead we have Rick Burgum,who serves as Chairman of the Board for the UND Foundation, writing this,

“Either we retire the (Fighting Sioux) name, or UND will not be permitted to join the Big Sky Conference.”

Which is a weird statement to write after UND has a signed contract from the Big Sky stating they were already a member. I highly doubt he would have looked up the Big Sky constitution, as this letter would have been more visible.

[82SiouxGuy]

Apparently after UND is "officially" in the conference. They couldn't kick UND out of the conference for having a "hostile and abusive" nickname.

The Big Sky Constitution states:

The Big Sky has no rules on nicknames for UND to violate.

Furthermore, the Big Sky could have written something in the clause about acceptance (like the Summit apparently) about the nickname if it was an issue. But it never was.

Instead the Commissioner of the Big Sky sent UND a letter stating

Which Kelley signed. And if you are Kelley would believe the above sentence and have not reason to believe the Sioux nickname would have been a "deterrent" to joining since signed a letter stating you were a member from the Commissioner.

Instead we have Rick Burgum,who serves as Chairman of the Board for the UND Foundation, writing this,

Which is a weird statement to write after UND has a signed contract from the Big Sky stating they were already a member. I highly doubt he would have looked up the Big Sky constitution, as this letter would have been more visible.

The Big Sky waited until UND had declared that they were changing the name and following the settlement agreement before they agreed to add UND as a member. They didn't know that North Dakota was going to start changing laws and trying to pass constitutional amendments to keep it. Otherwise they may have put that into the membership agreement.

The Big Sky can also change the constitution by a 2/3 vote (or could probably put something in as a rule with a simple majority vote). They can also put a school on probation for violating rules by a 2/3 vote. So even if the Big Sky didn't throw UND out they could make things very difficult.

[Bison Dan]

I think Mr. Fullerton is going to be on Mcfooly's radio show sometime this week. Might be interesting.

[choyt3]

I think Mr. Fullerton is going to be on Mcfooly's radio show sometime this week. Might be interesting.

Seriously? If so, that wasn't predictable.

[PhillySioux]

Apparently after UND is "officially" in the conference. They couldn't kick UND out of the conference for having a "hostile and abusive" nickname.

The Big Sky Constitution states:

The Big Sky has no rules on nicknames for UND to violate.

Furthermore, the Big Sky could have written something in the clause about acceptance (like the Summit apparently) about the nickname if it was an issue. But it never was.

Instead the Commissioner of the Big Sky sent UND a letter stating

Which Kelley signed. And if you are Kelley would believe the above sentence and have not reason to believe the Sioux nickname would have been a "deterrent" to joining since signed a letter stating you were a member from the Commissioner.

Instead we have Rick Burgum,who serves as Chairman of the Board for the UND Foundation, writing this,

Which is a weird statement to write after UND has a signed contract from the Big Sky stating they were already a member. I highly doubt he would have looked up the Big Sky constitution, as this letter would have been more visible.

As I posted earlier, Sure they could, If they were so inclined, they could use Article III Section 6 as cover. Not even much of a stretch for the type of folks that would be doing the voting.

[The Sicatoka]

Even in some miraculous scenario where UND were to have the Fighting Sioux moniker and be a full member of the Big Sky and the NCAA, UND would still not be able to host home NCAA playoff games and would need special "post-season" gear without the moniker and logo.

Not a big deal say you? Tell that to football and womens hockey. Both teams in this year's FCS title game played all their playoff games at home.

And who's going to pay to maintain FOUR sets of gear (home and road with "Sioux" and home and road without "Sioux")?

[star2city]

Big Sky Conference Constitution 2009-2010 (couldn't find 2011-2012)

Article V Membership

Section 2 Membership

A. Member institutions shall be Division I members of the NCAA and be classified as Football Championship Subdivision in football.

B. Member institutions shall meet the NCAA Division I membership criteria as set forth in NCAA Bylaws.

C. Member institutions may participate as members of another Conference only in those sports not recognized or sponsored by the Conference.

The NCAA currently considers the University of North Dakota a Division II institution that is transitioning to Division I and playing Division I FCS football (see http://web1.ncaa.org...divisionListing). UND can not be considered a Division I member until July 1, 2012 at the earliest, and only if they get final approval from the NCAA. According to the definition above, UND is not a full fledged member of the Big Sky Conference at this time, and will not be a full fledged member until July 1, 2012 at the earliest.

Prior to becoming a participating member, UND will be a full DI FCS member.

Northern Colorado actually was a member of the Big Sky for one year as a transitional DI team.

If the Big Sky was ever serious about expelling UND - they aren't at all - all Governor Dalrymple would need to do to stop such a move is make a phone call to Republican Governors in Idaho or Utah. That's the way the conference game is played in every other state, but Dalrymple (and Hoeven) chose not to do that to protect William Goetz, Hoeven's right hand man.

[star2city]

It is really a mystery why few on this board can't understand the significant of Faison and Kelley not entering written testimony into the hearing record for repealing the bill. Everyone else that testified submitted written testimony.

Why would Faison and Kelley not follow suit and enter their testimony into the record?

[star2city]

Apparently after UND is "officially" in the conference. They couldn't kick UND out of the conference for having a "hostile and abusive" nickname.

The Big Sky Constitution states:

The Big Sky has no rules on nicknames for UND to violate.

Furthermore, the Big Sky could have written something in the clause about acceptance (like the Summit apparently) about the nickname if it was an issue. But it never was.

Instead the Commissioner of the Big Sky sent UND a letter stating

Which Kelley signed. And if you are Kelley would believe the above sentence and have not reason to believe the Sioux nickname would have been a "deterrent" to joining since signed a letter stating you were a member from the Commissioner.

Instead we have Rick Burgum,who serves as Chairman of the Board for the UND Foundation, writing this,

Which is a weird statement to write after UND has a signed contract from the Big Sky stating they were already a member. I highly doubt he would have looked up the Big Sky constitution, as this letter would have been more visible.

There is much more to come Cratter.

Have a copy of the Summit League bylaws.

[ScottM]

It is really a mystery why few on this board can't understand the significant of Faison and Kelley not entering written testimony into the hearing record for repealing the bill. Everyone else that testified submitted written testimony. Why would Faison and Kelley not follow suit?

Personally, I think it has something to do with the Mayan calendar and the pending end of the world.

But I'm sure you'll submit your own hypothesis in the next vomit from Say Anything.

[star2city]

Kelley and Portland State's President Wim Wiewel's relationship goes way back too their days together at Ill-Chicago.

Strange how Portland State's Wiewel seemed to be a ringleader in the Big Sky against the Sioux name.

Was Wiewel Kelley's wing man?

More to come on that.

Here's an email Kelley wrote to Wiewel bragging even before the NCAA meeting on how the SBoHE had already voted to drop the name.

http://sayanythingblog.com/entry/did-grant-shaft-and-the-board-of-higher-ed-undermine-the-ncaa-meeting-in-august/

[homer]

Kelley and Portland State's President Wim Wiewel's relationship goes way back too their days together at Ill-Chicago.

Strange how Portland State's Wiewel seemed to be a ringleader in the Big Sky against the Sioux name.

Was Wiewel Kelley's wing man?

More to come on that.

Here's an email Kelley wrote to Wiewel bragging even before the NCAA meeting on how the SBoHE had already voted to drop the name.

http://sayanythingbl...ting-in-august/

I'm beginning to think that the only people who thought the meeting with the NCAA was going to change anything were you and Al Carlson. If I were on the trip I would have kept the car running with the AC on while we went inside to keep it cool. The meeting could have been that quick.

[The Sicatoka]

star,

Get it through your head: Goetz was put in place to "deal" (spelled: make go away) with two things -- NDSU's "budget" issues and UND's moniker issue.

Goetz did that regarding UND when announcing the settlement agreement and noting that there is a "new dynamic" in ND public policy regarding the issue. Clearly the dynamic came from Goetz's then boss, Gov. Hoeven, the graduate of Dartmouth College (formerly the "Indians", now the "Big Green").

However, and ultimately, this sentence from the "author" (cough-YOU-cough) states the problem no matter the angle it is viewed from: "This optimism supposedly lasted until NCAA official Emmert and Franklin reportedly refused to budge on the NCAA Native American imagery, mascot, and name policy as it pertained to UND; and the 2007 lawsuit settlement agreement between the school and the association."

The NCAA pointed to the settlement, smirked, and sent the ND delegation packing. The settlement? See above and Goetz's (presumed) two jobs as NDUS Chancellor.

Inside job? Probably. But not by Kelley and Faison (who weren't on the job yet). The "inside job" was Hoeven and Goetz did the "wet work". And as ScottM has noted numerous times, if a US Senator or two called the NCAA (as the Florida Senators did for Florida State) the NCAA would scurry away quickly. But, now-Senator Hoeven remains in absentia. ... Then again, former US House of Representatives Speaker Denny Hastert (R - Illinois) couldn't save Chief Illiniwek for U of Illinois.

[The Sicatoka]

Why is anyone surprised about Kelley talking to the PSU president when they already had a working relationship? If I was trying to join a group I'd talk to the guy in the group already that I knew.

[ScottM]

Why is anyone surprised about Kelley talking to the PSU president when they already had a working relationship? If I was trying to join a group I'd talk to the guy in the group already that I knew.

Because ... "they're in it with the aliens! They're building landing strips for gay Martians!"

(/props to The Dead Milkmen)

The "conspiracy" runs deeper than just the Sioux nickname ...

[PhillySioux]

Kelley and Portland State's President Wim Wiewel's relationship goes way back too their days together at Ill-Chicago.

Strange how Portland State's Wiewel seemed to be a ringleader in the Big Sky against the Sioux name.

Was Wiewel Kelley's wing man?

More to come on that.

Here's an email Kelley wrote to Wiewel bragging even before the NCAA meeting on how the SBoHE had already voted to drop the name.

http://sayanythingbl...ting-in-august/

Please post the entire email. Thanks in advance.

[The Sicatoka]

Please post the entire email. Thanks in advance.

It's linked in his link: http://www.scribd.com/doc/76954905/08122011-PSU-Wim-to-Kelley

[UNDBIZ]

It's linked in his link: http://www.scribd.co...U-Wim-to-Kelley

Here's what I take from that email:

1. The Big Sky Presidents have been meeting/discussing the Sioux nickname issue.

2. The Big Sky Presidents are concerned about the Sioux nickname.

3. The PSU President informed President Kelley of these discussions.

4. President Kelley responded to the PSU President to reassure him (and the other Big Sky Presidents) that the issue would be resolved.

5. In an effort to calm the other Big Sky Presidents, President Kelley had to be clear and confident about what he (along with the rest of the sane people in North Dakota) believed would come about as a result of the meeting with the NCAA (nothing new).

[PhillySioux]

It's linked in his link: http://www.scribd.co...U-Wim-to-Kelley

I swear to all is holy, Say Anything must assume one of two things about all of its readers.

1) They only read headlines; or

2) They are complete dolts.

[Teeder11]

I swear to all is holy, Say Anything must assume one of two things about all of its readers.

1) They only read headlines; or

2) They are complete dolts.

I don't know about the readers, but the contributors and most of the posters prove the latter to be true every day.

[UNDBIZ]

I swear to all is holy, Say Anything must assume one of two things about all of its readers.

1) They only read headlines; or

2) They are complete dolts.

I don't mean to nit pick, but it really isn't an 'or' situation. 1 and 2 could both be true (and probably are).