recurring ss.com discussions

[burd]

When the NFL's Oilers changed their name to the Titans they became a different team. The last Oilers team had a lot of players that were on the first Titans team the following year, had the same coaches and trainers, and still played in Tennessee. But still the Oilers are the Oilers and the Titans are the Titans. Same franchise, but two different teams. The Oilers no longer exist.

If UND is forced to drop the nickname I can see them retaining some sense of continuity by going with no nickname at all. They could be known simply as the University of North Dakota football team, University of North Dakota hockey team, etc... I could respect that. What I do not and will not respect is the concept of replacing the current nickname with another one.

That is what would make me think of UND as having one team that existed up until whatever point that it became extinct and then started all over with a brand new team. If that happens I will take it as a slap in the face. Just because we get our name taken away does not mean we should be forced to replace it.

I want the current nickname or none at all. Slapping any other nickname on our teams is the only way to ensure that over time the Fighting Sioux name will gradually be forgotten. Go with no nickname and it will stay alive as an "unofficial" moniker. From my point of view, replacing the nickname = ending the existence of one team and starting a new one. You may not feel the same way as I do, and that is fine, but that doesn't give you the right to tell me I'm wrong to feel that way.

A rose, by any other name, would smell as sweet.

[82SiouxGuy]

That's not quite right. The Houston Oilers moved to Tennessee following the 1996 season. They were the Tennessee Oilers in 1997 and 1998 prior to the Oilers name becoming extinct. The Tennessee Titans began play in 1999. So, the move to a different city/state/stadium actually occured a full two years before the name change. I can handle a move to a different city/state/stadium, I can't handle changing the identity of a team. If I was an Oilers fan I would have continued to support them after the move to Tennessee but not after the name change.

St. Louis Cardinals/Arizona Cardinals, same thing. Tennessee Oilers/Tennessee Titans, not the same. MY OPINION, not right or wrong. Technically speaking, the franchise is the same in both cases, but I believe that the history of a FRANCHISE can involve multiple teams.

That the Oilers moved to Tennessee in 1997 is correct. But they played in Memphis at the Liberty Bowl for 1997. They then moved to Nashville and played the 1998 season at Vanderbilt Stadium. The new stadium in Nashville opened in 1999. It was called Adelphia Coliseum. They opened the new stadium with the new name, although it had been announced before the end of the previous season. That was my earlier point. They changed the name when they moved into the new stadium to help rebrand the team and make it more appealing to Tennessee people since they don't have a lot of oil in Tennessee. It was all part of a process that took several years, from the decision to leave Houston until they were settled at Adelphia. But the new name was the finishing touch along with the new home. However, it is the same franchise and same team. If they themselves think they are the same team then I'm not sure how you can tell them that they are wrong and you are right.

If the Fighting Sioux nickname has to go, they will choose a new nickname for UND at some time in the future, and probably not too many years out. We have seen at Dartmouth and at Marquette the problems that can occur when they don't do a good job of replacing a nickname. It can cause problems years out. The school won't want that to happen. Allowing fans to continue to use Sioux as an unofficial nickname because they don't have a new one would cause problems. Plus, finding a great new nickname and logo could be very lucrative to the school because they could sell a lot of new merchandise. I believe that they will find a way to choose something new. So you better enjoy the next year or 2 or 3 of Sioux sports. You may have to find a new team to support after that.

[82SiouxGuy]

I'm sorry, but I find your attitude highly disrespectful to the Fighting Sioux nickname. That's just my opinion, but I feel very strongly about it.

Yeah, my loyalty is tied directly to the nickname... and based on his threats to halt construction on the arena, so was Ralph's. So I guess that puts me in good company.

I think that you are wrong about Ralph. He felt very strongly about the name, no one would question that. But I think that he supported the University and the hockey program even more. He used the threat to halt construction as a weapon, which worked. But I strongly believe that he would have continued to support the program even if it were forced to change the name. He didn't want them to voluntarily change it, but would have understood if they were forced. He just would have done everything he could before it reached that conclusion.

The program is so much more than just a name. As good as the name is, it is just a minor part of the tradition and quality that is UND hockey and UND athletics. The program is made up of people and relationships and so much more. All of those are more important than a nickname. Players and coaches won those 7 hockey titles, the nickname didn't score a goal or make a save or throw a check. The nickname just looked good on the scoreboard.

And you are as delusional as some of the nickname opponents if you think that I have ever been disrespectful to the nickname. I have been a fan probably longer than you have been alive. I have been in complete support of the name throughout the years. But I also can see the writing on the wall. Continuing the fight after the deadline is going to do nothing but harm to the program. If the name has to go, making a complete change would be the best thing for the health of the entire athletic department and the entire university. Letting the issue linger would continue to cause problems. The University won't let that happen. So if a change must happen they will have a cooling off period where they use no nickname, and then will find an alternative that they hope will be satisfactory to most people. I hope they find something great. But no matter what it is, my loyalty is tied to the institution that is the University of North Dakota and to the athletic programs that it supports.

[Siouxman]

Yeah, my loyalty is tied directly to the nickname... and based on his threats to halt construction on the arena, so was Ralph's. So I guess that puts me in good company.

And you are misunderstanding Ralph Engelstad's motivation here. While Ralph owned a casino, he made it big first in construction. And while many of the contractors were local, the construction management and supervision was done by Ralph's construction managers. They used many innovative techniques and processes that Ralph had perfected in his construction business. The local contractors will tell you they learned many things in the process from Ralph's expertise. The arena was on a fast track construction timeline, because that is the way Ralph got things done. Designs had been completed and material was already ordered and being delivered. To piddle around about the Sioux name when construction was at a critical point would do nothing but cause designs to be changed, material to be reordered, cost mucho dollars, and delay construction raising costs even more. The intended cost had already doubled. Beyond the cost of construction, delaying the progress would have tied up Ralph's people even longer, inflicting significant lost opportunity cost to his construction business. Ralph's no-nonsense approach to business and getting things done likely had as much to do with his threat as his loyalty to the Fighting Sioux name. He was a hard worker and had no time for delays and fooling around.

[82SiouxGuy]

And you are misunderstanding Ralph Engelstad's motivation here. While Ralph owned a casino, he made it big first in construction. And while many of the contractors were local, the construction management and supervision was done by Ralph's construction managers. They used many innovative techniques and processes that Ralph had perfected in his construction business. The local contractors will tell you they learned many things in the process from Ralph's expertise. The arena was on a fast track construction timeline, because that is the way Ralph got things done. Designs had been completed and material was already ordered and being delivered. To piddle around about the Sioux name when construction was at a critical point would do nothing but cause designs to be changed, material to be reordered, cost mucho dollars, and delay construction raising costs even more. The intended cost had already doubled. Beyond the cost of construction, delaying the progress would have tied up Ralph's people even longer, inflicting significant lost opportunity cost to his construction business. Ralph's no-nonsense approach to business and getting things done likely had as much to do with his threat as his loyalty to the Fighting Sioux name. He was a hard worker and had no time for delays and fooling around.

Thanks for bringing that part up. I had forgotten about that. I have a friend that was part of the construction management team for the project and I believe that you're right. Time was money for Ralph and any delay was a huge problem for him. He didn't seem to let problems hold him back, he found a solution. So keeping the name and keeping the project moving on his schedule were probably at least part of his motivation.

[Let'sGoHawks!]

Dave K. I have this for you: I really do feel for you. You are so out of touch, it hurts sometimes. Are you really just a guy who always plays devils advocate to get a rise out of people? I just don't get you.

[gjw007]

Allowing fans to continue to use Sioux as an unofficial nickname because they don't have a new one would cause problems. Plus, finding a great new nickname and logo could be very lucrative to the school because they could sell a lot of new merchandise. I believe that they will find a way to choose something new. So you better enjoy the next year or 2 or3 of Sioux sports. You may have to find a new team to support after that.

I don't follow this logic.

First, you believe the University has the power to control what people think? If I showed up at an event after the name was retired with a Sioux logo on merchandise that had been sold by the university, you think they should turn me away as you believe it will cause problems? I can see lawsuits coming from a position like this if adopted by the University. Certainly it is not the America that I grew up in where the thought process is the government can tell you what to think. Second, whether the university adopts a new logo or just goes as the University of North Dakota, I think they will still sell merchandise so I don't understand this point. There may be a rush to get Sioux merchandise generating an unusual spike in the sales but that shouldn't be used then as the basis for future sales comparisons as it will provide misleading interpretations of the sales comparisons between the old name and the new name.

I would prefer to forgo the nickname and just go as the University of North Dakota.

[82SiouxGuy]

I don't follow this logic.

First, you believe the University has the power and the power to control what people think? If I showed up at an event after the name was retired with a Sioux logo on merchandise that had been sold by the university, you think they should turn me away as you believe it will cause problems? I can lawsuits coming from a position like this if adopted by the University. Certainly it is not the America that I grew up in where the thought process is the government can tell you what to think. Second, whether the university adopts a new logo or just goes as the University of North Dakota, I think they will still sell merchandise so I don't understand this point. There may be a rush to get Sioux merchandise generating an unusual spike in the sales but that shouldn't be used then as the basis for future sales comparisons as it will provide misleading interpretations of the sales comparisons between the old name and the new name.

I would prefer to forgo the nickname and just go as the University of North Dakota.

You have misunderstood my meaning. We discussed in a different thread that the NC$$ would have a hard time trying to enforce any kind of ban on fan clothing and possibly even advertising using tribal imagery. I have stated before that I believe many fans will continue to wear Sioux clothing for several years. I may do it myself, I have enough to last for years. If UND goes without a nickname people will definitely continue to use the Sioux name. That doesn't end the current situation and the administration will not want that to happen. Nickname opponents will continue to complain about the name. The NC$$ may try to step in again. Nothing goes away if UND is "unofficially" known as the Sioux because they have nothing else to call the team. A cooling off and transition period will probably happen, but long term the administration and the SBoHE will not allow the school to go without a nickname.

Choosing a new nickname will probably be seen as starting the healing process. The school will be able to say that they are encouraging fans to start using the new name and wearing clothing with the name. And that encouragement of the new name automatically discourages use of the old name without actually having to say anything. More and more people will actually switch over and use the new name. If chosen well it could become very popular. The school and the government won't have the power to control what you or anyone else thinks. But just like any business marketing a product, they will try to influence their customers to use the new name and logo through their marketing campaign.

I agree that there will be a spike in Fighting Sioux merchandise sales. As a matter of fact, I said that same thing in another thread several days ago. And fans will buy merchandise that says University of North Dakota. The reason I believe that sales could increase with a new logo, if it is a good name and logo, is the casual fan. For example, I have been told that college students in Boston like to wear UND sweatshirts because they like the logo. Casual fans will buy stuff if it looks good, is catchy or is fun. That would be the extra sales I was referring to in the original post. Again, it's a marketing thing.

You and several others have stated your preference for going without a nickname. I understand your reasoning. But I don't believe that anyone in authority in this situation is going to want that to happen. They are going to want to find a clean break and then start fresh for the reasons I stated above and probably for several others that I haven't thought of.

[SiouxFanatic]

This topic sure has digressed.

- The Sioux aren't scoring goals because they keep shooting at the goalies chest!

[burd]

The Sioux never cycle the puck anymore.

or

They need to do something other than cycling the puck all the time.

[gjw007]

Choosing a new nickname will probably be seen as starting the healing process. The school will be able to say that they are encouraging fans to start using the new name and wearing clothing with the name. And that encouragement of the new name automatically discourages use of the old name without actually having to say anything. More and more people will actually switch over and use the new name. If chosen well it could become very popular. The school and the government won't have the power to control what you or anyone else thinks. But just like any business marketing a product, they will try to influence their customers to use the new name and logo through their marketing campaign.

I'm not sure this is true. Look at the Dartmouth situation where they changed the name, what 30 years ago, and because of why it was forced to be changed is still an issue today. I still think of Central as the Redskins and that is because they were the Redskins went I was in high school (EGF). I have less a problem with the changing of the nickname then the rationale for it. I believe that having Americans forget the Native Americans is more insulting and degrading than any fan's stupid actions toward the mascot could ever be (how many people would ever know about the Sioux, Utes, etc. if it wasn't for the nicknames). You support the school, the community, etc. and not the nickname. The problem is if they changed it once, any new name could forced to be changed again and it puts the University back in the same situation. By not having a nickname, it actually gives UND a unique marketing opportunity.

[82SiouxGuy]

I'm not sure this is true. Look at the Dartmouth situation where they changed the name, what 30 years ago, and because of why it was forced to be changed is still an issue today. I still think of Central as the Redskins and that is because they were the Redskins went I was in high school (EGF). I have less a problem with the changing of the nickname then the rationale for it. I believe that having Americans forget the Native Americans is more insulting and degrading than any fan's stupid actions toward the mascot could ever be (how many people would ever know about the Sioux, Utes, etc. if it wasn't for the nicknames). You support the school, the community, etc. and not the nickname. The problem is if they changed it once, any new name could forced to be changed again and it puts the University back in the same situation. By not having a nickname, it actually gives UND a unique marketing opportunity.

I used Dartmouth as an example of a name change that was poorly done in an earlier post. Marquette is another. But many schools and even professional teams have changed their nickname successfully. Central is an example of a change that is successful but is still in progress. Most people now use the Knights name, some people that were around earlier still revert to Redskins. I normally use Knights although I sometimes think Redskins.

I agree totally that it is a shame that the Fighting Sioux nickname will probably have to go away. As long as the NA nicknames were used with respect I think that they were potentially a tool to educate people about Native Americans. They definitely kept the tribes names alive. It will be sad if they become forgotten because of this forced change.

I supported keeping the Fighting Sioux nickname right up until the recent developments. However, I realized during the lawsuit that the odds were slim, and the settlement made them slimmer. I was in favor of putting in the effort to try to keep the name and logo intact. The SBoHE did not put in the effort needed. Now it is more important to increase the odds of getting into an auto-bid conference for most sports. Not getting into a conference could damage the entire Athletic Department, and I still think that the odds of keeping the name long term would be very slim even if they used the entire length of time in the settlement. That's why I have accepted the decision to make the change if they can't reach an agreement with the tribes by October 1. I don't like it, but I can live with it.

Not having a nickname would put UND in a unique position. I don't know if that would be a good thing or not. There has to be a reason that no one else has done that. My guess is that it is easier to sell a name and logo than not having one to sell.

[90siouxfan]

Here is a thought.

Prince (the pop/rock star) changed his name to a symbol in order to get out of some contract situation.

Have an artist come up with a symbol that has some very discreet connection to an ancient symbol of the fighting sioux.

then have no pronounceable name for it and let everyone call it whatever they want.

Loyal fans could still call it the fighting sioux .

Politically correct individuals could call it lovey snuggle bunnies.

Frustrated sports announcers could call it "the team formerly known as the Fighting Sioux"

and the list goes on

Just a thought

Rick

[82SiouxGuy]

What do you mean no one else has done that? You must not be aware of this:

Newberry, two others play on without a mascot

Did you even read the article? Newberry is in the same place that UND is facing, only about 1 year ahead in time. They were forced to drop their NA nickname. They were the Indians. Now:

A committee is at work trying to figure what comes next. Meantime, Newberry has no totem to call its own, other than an oversized scarlet letter.

In other words, they are doing the "no-nickname thing" for a short time while they find something new. And how is that "no-nickname thing" working for them?

"We are the notorious Block N's," says Bley, a baseball outfielder. "It carries no fear."

Newberry sent a questionnaire to 9,000 alumni and supporters to ask if they wanted a new nickname, no nickname or some form of the old one; 3,000 responses came back.

The committee met last week and decided no nickname is out of the question. It will meet again April 30. A final decision appears a year or more away.

The second school mentioned in the article is a Division III school, McMurry of Abilene, Texas. They were also the Indians and had to lose the name in 2006. They are also taking the transition slow.

"We aren't in any hurry to take a new name," university relations director Nancy Smith says. "We feel like Indians is part of who we are."

This quote sounds like a lot of UND fans. That doesn't mean that they aren't going to choose a new name, they are taking their time and haven't made any decisions yet. Of course they aren't under the same pressures that UND is facing.

And the third school mentioned is a women's school in Roanoke, VA named Hollins. They are also in Division III. They have never had a nickname. So I was wrong, there is a school that has operated for a while without a nickname. The only difference is it's a Division III women's college. Not quite the same situation as a school in a prominent battle with the NC$$ and local Native American tribal councils. A school that has to live up to a court settlement about the nickname. A school in the process of moving its entire athletic department to Division 1. A school looking for a conference with very few possibilities. Not quite the same, but close. Congratulations Dave, you have managed to find almost a perfect match in situations, something that UND can use as a road map for going without a nickname. Well done.

[82SiouxGuy]

No nickname is the best way to avoid pi$$ing people off.

Some people are going to be upset no matter what happens with the nickname.

[82SiouxGuy]

True, but you have to admit there's a lot of support for no nickname. Dropping the current nickname will hurt, but replacing it would add insult to injury.

I already have admitted that there is a lot of support for no nickname. There's even more support for keeping the Fighting Sioux nickname. I don't think the chances of that happening are very good. And I don't think the chances of going with no nickname for more than 1-3 years are any better. Believe what you want, and support what you want. My prediction is that well before 2015 the University of North Dakota will be using a new nickname and logo. My guess is that it will happen about the same time they start playing in the Summit League.

[Goon]

True, but you have to admit there's a lot of support for no nickname. Dropping the current nickname will hurt, but replacing it would add insult to injury.

In re-reading the nick name resolution (I am not a lawyer but I did stay at a Holiday Inn express a few times) I think Jloos (from his post in another thread) is right I think UND has to pick a name so I don't know how long we can go without one name.

[Big A HG]

For monetary reasons, there's no way that I can see us having no nickname. Selling merchandise with the new nickname will be economically substantial for UND, in my opinion. There are already products out there that just plainly say "North Dakota" or "U of North Dakota" or "UND" without the Sioux nickname, and I doubt you'd see a spike in those sales like you you would with merchanside donning the new nickname.

As nice as it sounds just to be "North Dakota", I highly doubt it would happen. People might be upset about having a new nickname, but no matter what you do, there will be people that don't like whatever decisions are made. Eventually, these emotions will deteriorate and people will accept the new nickname eventually, and the sooner that new nickname is implemented, the sooner those things can happen.

[gjw007]

I really don't think the NCAA would make UND choose a new nickname as long as the current one is dropped. I don't know this for a fact, but it only seems logical. I know there's that wording about "transitioning to a different name", but I would think that no name is in essence a new name. To the best of my knowledge, there is no rule stating that all NCAA teams must have a nickname. Would they enforce a special rule on UND that does not apply to all other schools? That wouldn't seem fair.

It could be argued that the transition from the "University of North Dakota Fighting Sioux" to simply the "University of North Dakota" is a transition to a different name. I see no legal argument against this as this is a transition to a different name. Being similar doesn't mean that it isn't different. Also, sales of merchandise is not tied to the name so much as the team and sport. I can see sales of "UND" merchandise as successful as "UND Fighting Sioux" merchandise. The key is marketing and the success of the sporting teams.

[The Sicatoka]

Random musings after reading a couple dozen posts:

- All of our NCAA titles were won by the University of North Dakota or North Dakota. That's what I find in the record books.

- Someone's claiming (paraphrased) "these will be all new teams". Well no kidding. It's an all new team representing the University of North Dakota that steps onto the competitive surface every fall. You're going to get hung up on what the shirt they are wearing says?

- Going for a short while without a moniker/logo might work, but over the long haul you need a marketable moniker/logo. How do I know this? Show me a school in the top 100 of merchandising without a moniker/logo.

- Additionally, you need to create that moniker/logo for yourself, control what's yours to control, or someone who may not be your friend will do it for you.

- And now, today's "Hey-Hey-Hey!" life lesson from The Cos ...

"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody."

-- William Henry "Bill" Cosby, Jr., Ph.D.

[gjw007]

- Going for a short while without a moniker/logo might work, but over the long haul you need a marketable moniker/logo. How do I know this? Show me a school in the top 100 of merchandising without a moniker/logo.

- Additionally, you need to create that moniker/logo for yourself, control what's yours to control, or someone who may not be your friend will do it for you.

I would think that the logo that UND already uses, i.e. the interlocking ND and UND logos, would do fine. They have in the past; I don't see why they wouldn't in the future.

[tnt]

I certainly don't want the Bison getting credit for UND's accomplishments by default. I think without a nickname, that would happen more and more. That said, I certainly don't want them to rush into a nickname and regret the outcome. Research and poll ideas and logo's and work up the best possible and then make an informed decision.

[DamStrait]

Random musings after reading a couple dozen posts:

- All of our NCAA titles were won by the University of North Dakota or North Dakota. That's what I find in the record books.

- Someone's claiming (paraphrased) "these will be all new teams". Well no kidding. It's an all new team representing the University of North Dakota that steps onto the competitive surface every fall. You're going to get hung up on what the shirt they are wearing says?

- Going for a short while without a moniker/logo might work, but over the long haul you need a marketable moniker/logo. How do I know this? Show me a school in the top 100 of merchandising without a moniker/logo.

- Additionally, you need to create that moniker/logo for yourself, control what's yours to control, or someone who may not be your friend will do it for you.

- And now, today's "Hey-Hey-Hey!" life lesson from The Cos ...

"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody."

-- William Henry "Bill" Cosby, Jr., Ph.D.

I'm assuming by "moniker/logo" you mean "moniker and logo", but I would suggest that it should mean "moniker or logo". I think your avatar is a very good example of a new and very marketable logo that is independent of a moniker. What fraction of University of Michigan merchandise makes reference to "Wolverines"? Whatever it is, it is a very small one and if "Wolverines" was to be banned from all their merchandise, I have to believe it would have almost no, if any, effect on their sales. And Michigan is what - certainly in the top ten of all the NCAA for merchandising - probably in the top three. In addition, as someone else mentioned previously, having no moinker would set us apart from virtually all other programs - a difference that could be exploited to UND's (marketing) advantage.

[Big A HG]

I don't see having a modified ND logo being something drastically more marketable than what we already had. The ND logo merchandise being sold was an alternative to using our Native American logo. As a standalone marketing campaign, the ND logo sales will be better, but not to the point of what a new logo would bring. People already have many ND only products, and it wouldn't generate the excitement (good or bad) of a new logo.

I don't think many of you know or understand marketing if you think that the ND logo alone is going to be great for sales. People will be against the new logo at first, but people will come to accept a new nickname. There will also be people that are pro-Sioux, but aren't against the new nickname and want the latest and greatest in UND nickname apparel.

I think it's fair to say most people prefer UND apparel with our Native American logo in comparison to our ND logo, and the same can be said for any new nickname we have (assuming it's not something horrendously bad).

If anything, if UND doesn't adopt a new nickname and just markets ND logo apparel, many people will continue to just continue using Sioux products, hurting sales even more.

[82SiouxGuy]

I don't see having a modified ND logo being something drastically more marketable than what we already had. The ND logo merchandise being sold was an alternative to using our Native American logo. As a standalone marketing campaign, the ND logo sales will be better, but not to the point of what a new logo would bring. People already have many ND only products, and it wouldn't generate the excitement (good or bad) of a new logo.

I don't think many of you know or understand marketing if you think that the ND logo alone is going to be great for sales. People will be against the new logo at first, but people will come to accept a new nickname. There will also be people that are pro-Sioux, but aren't against the new nickname and want the latest and greatest in UND nickname apparel.

I think it's fair to say most people prefer UND apparel with our Native American logo in comparison to our ND logo, and the same can be said for any new nickname we have (assuming it's not something horrendously bad).

If anything, if UND doesn't adopt a new nickname and just markets ND logo apparel, many people will continue to just continue using Sioux products, hurting sales even more.

I have been trying to say the same thing. If they are well done, merchandise with a NEW logo and a NEW nickname will sell a lot more than anything that just says North Dakota or UND. Americans want to buy the latest and greatest.