Kvasager Posted December 31, 2008 Posted December 31, 2008 I am stressing realistic expectations, not the expectations of the board. I could agree with the switch in expectations on Hak's first two teams. THe first year I wasn't overly excited, because while we were awesome from the blueline back, losing GOD and Bucks left a huge 50 goal hole in the lineup. Remember that no one expected Toews and Oshie to be the studs that they were. There are many NHL clubs that didn't have the draft picks that 05-06 team had. I am surprisd that noone has commented on the Andy Murray aspect. This is huge. Andy Murray advises his highly skilled son to go to Europe under the guise of the foreigner clause, but then Brady ends up right back in the AHL after the strike. Then Jordy goes to Madison...how many little brothers have we lost? That tells me that Andy believed in Blais, but not in Hakstol. Andy is an NHL insider, and can definitely influence NHL prospect behavior. This year's Sioux team has no upper echelon playmakers other than Genoway. Duncs: Finisher Kozek: Finisher VV: Grinder with some skill Watkins: Grinder with a little less skill Frattin: Finisher Trupp: Poor man's playmaker Malone: Grinder with no skill Hextall: Finsher with grit Gregoire: Finisher, but potential playmaker Toews: potential playmaker The list goes on and on. Love the team, program and guys. We just don't have the top end skill this year. Yeah, I guess that #5 preseason national ranking was a sham.
Shawn-O Posted December 31, 2008 Posted December 31, 2008 Yeah, I guess that #5 preseason national ranking was a sham. It was.
yzerman19 Posted December 31, 2008 Posted December 31, 2008 Preseason polls are worth about as much as opinions on this board Of course they'd be highly touted in preseason after a F4 appearance. Nobody knew that Frattin would be our top goal scorer, and that opponents would fear Frattin, Gregoire and Hextall as much as they fear Duncan, VV and Kozek. This team's problem is the top returning scorers aren't doing jack.
brianvf Posted December 31, 2008 Posted December 31, 2008 Remember that no one expected Toews and Oshie to be the studs that they were. I am surprisd that noone has commented on the Andy Murray aspect. This is huge. Andy Murray advises his highly skilled son to go to Europe under the guise of the foreigner clause, but then Brady ends up right back in the AHL after the strike. Then Jordy goes to Madison...how many little brothers have we lost? That tells me that Andy believed in Blais, but not in Hakstol. Andy is an NHL insider, and can definitely influence NHL prospect behavior. I think people expected Toews to be a stud, even as a frosh, but not Oshie simply because he was coming straight from HS. I remember some posters commenting that he should have spent a year in juniors first. I don't think the Andy Murray situation is a big deal at all. I highly doubt that he "pulled" Brady out from UND simply because he thought that Hakstol couldn't coach his kid, while Blais could. Brady had a loophole that expired that year that gave him a shot at playing professional hockey after a frustrating season in which he was injured for a good chunk of the time. I don't read any more into it than that. Maybe Andy was upset with how Brady's injury was handled and advised Jordy to not go to UND...that's alright...UW needs those forward recruits far more than what we do. Hakstol has landed some great recruits that are coming in (Kristo, Cichy, Mattson, Forbort...not to mention players in this year's frosh class), and he will land great ones in the future. Andy's "insider influence" isn't going to change that.
AZSIOUX Posted December 31, 2008 Posted December 31, 2008 I think people expected Toews to be a stud, even as a frosh, but not Oshie simply because he was coming straight from HS. I remember some posters commenting that he should have spent a year in juniors first. I don't think the Andy Murray situation is a big deal at all. I highly doubt that he "pulled" Brady out from UND simply because he thought that Hakstol couldn't coach his kid, while Blais could. Brady had a loophole that expired that year that gave him a shot at playing professional hockey after a frustrating season in which he was injured for a good chunk of the time. I don't read any more into it than that. Maybe Andy was upset with how Brady's injury was handled and advised Jordy to not go to UND...that's alright...UW needs those forward recruits far more than what we do. Hakstol has landed some great recruits that are coming in (Kristo, Cichy, Mattson, Forbort...not to mention players in this year's frosh class), and he will land great ones in the future. Andy's "insider influence" isn't going to change that. toews was always suppose to be a star, oshie was highly touted and just develpoed faster than some people thought out of HS. the murray situation wont hurt the program at all. andy didnt like the way the injury was handled it seemed and that was that leading to the europe loophole. jordy is solid but oh wel, you cant get every brother combo out there. i think und leads the universe in bringing in brothers so when you lose a few then oh well. forbort and mattson will be high draft picks and kristo will be a star i believe. hak just doesnt have the title yet and yes hes only been coach for 4 years but when you get to the frozen 4 in those years 1 banner is expected and they simply get slapped around by BC no matter what
siouxforeverbaby Posted December 31, 2008 Posted December 31, 2008 2008-2009: No real top-end recruits (first rounders or World Junior players). Duncan, VV, Kozek and Finley looked to to lead. Realistic Expectations are for a top 5 WCHA finish. Actual Result is unknown. If you mean that we don't have any first rounders on the team, Finley was drafted in the first round...27th overall. He is the only first rounder currently playing for us. AZSIOUX's site Joe's profile on fightingsioux.com
Irish Posted December 31, 2008 Posted December 31, 2008 What to make of Dave Hakstol...I know that there were some very influential people associated with the Sioux program who were not happy with his being named head coach. I also know that he has lead the Sioux to Four Frozen Fours. Are the Frozen Four trips a result of Dave or are could any decent college hockey coach have brought those teams to the Frozen Four? 2003-2004: The Sioux lose all-world forward Zach Parise and all-WCHA sniper Brandon Bochenski following a heartbreaking loss to DU in the regionals. The Sioux then lose Dean Blais and Brad Berry. David Lundbohm and Ryan Hale graduate. The Sioux, Gophers and Bulldogs all play a very fast, up tempo style with incredibly skilled players this year. Maybe one of the most fun years to watch WCHA hockey. 2004-2005: The Sioux welcome in new coach Dave Hakstol with a team of veteran defensemen. The Sioux defensemen are all big and have a nice mix of strong puck movers and strong body movers(3 defensemen from this team have seen action in the NHL). At forward, four guys have seen action in the NHL since graduation including Travis Zajac, Drew Stafford, Brady Murray, and Chris Porter. The Sioux ride the defensemen, some timely scoring, and "do it for Robbie" all the way to the finals only to lose to DU. This team was built ,on veteran leadership, tough defense and some young skilled players. Realistic expectation: NCAA regionals. Actual result: NCAA runner up. Team Exceeded Expectations. 2005-2006: THe Sioux lose some of that veteran leadership from the Blue Line as well as a surprising early departure in Brady Murray, but bring in an extremely talented class. Maybe the most talented team in Sioux history. The team includes 6 first round draft picks and 3 second round draft picks. Plus a smattering of every other round, a future Hobey winner, a European pro and a veteran goalie. Realistic expectation: NCAA Champion. Actual result: Frozen Four. Team Did not meet Expectations. 2006-2007: THe Sioux lose Stafford, Zajac, Spirko and Smaby along with many key role players and fan favorites, but expectations are high. The DOT line becomes the most feared line in NCAA hockey, Duncs wins the Hobey. Sioux have an NHL line, but are essentially a one trick poney. Realistic Expectation: Frozen Four. Actual Result: Frozen Four 2007-2008: The Sioux lose some role players to graduation and Toews to the NHL, but the rest of the guns make "the pact". Partly based on this hype expectations are very high, but depth is still lacking. JPL becomes one of the best goalies in the nation. Realistic Expectation: Frozen Four. Actual Result: Frozen Four. 2008-2009: No real top-end recruits (first rounders or World Junior players). Duncan, VV, Kozek and Finley looked to to lead. Realistic Expectations are for a top 5 WCHA finish. Actual Result is unknown. Based on my mini-analysis above, you can see that when we take off the green glasses, stop thinking about the bad losses, and really evaluate the performance, Hak is averaging meeting realistic expectations given his players' ability. One year he overachieved, one year he underachieved, the other two were about right. So, based on his teams' on ice performance, Hak gets a B- from me. He didn't screw up, but he didn't do any spectacular coaching from my armchair vantage point. Add in a couple other factors: Blais was an exceptional hockey coach. Blais recruited the best talent in North America The Finger (unacceptable) Andy Murray advises son to leave UND and advises other son to play at Wisconsin??? I know the euro clause and all, but really? Some losses have looked like the guys didn't even come to play What do we have? A decent hockey coach who isn't the recruiter his predecessor was, who isn't a great ambassador of the school to the league or to the NHL, who doesn't get the boys fired up for the big game. This sounds more like mediocrity than the Fighting Sioux Hockey Program. GO ahead and blast me...I am ready Thanks for the recap - looking at the players listed it makes me think more than ever that we have a big lack of high end talent this year, and down recruiting classes for our juniors and sophomores (freshmen to be determined). Hak just isn't the recruiter Blais was. As for the theory that we have good players up and down the line-up - that only works if the players develop and show up every game. One of the main problems with this team is the lack of development for almost everyone. Hardly anyone is playing better than expected - many are worse than last year. Gregoire was mentioned in the same breath as Schroeder as best newcomers to the WCHA - see them at par now? (please note - I'm not criticizing Gregoire - just using this as an illustration for our player development). How do you think our sophomore and junior classes are developing? Blais had a reputation for developing talent and was able to recruit the likes of Parise because of it. Under Hak, many players just plain don't develop. I'm not so sure our system isn't grinding them down. Our offensive break-out and cycling are horrible. If fans can see it why can't the coaches. You would think that after watching game film after game film the light would go on. I'm not saying we don't have some good players - we do. I just think that almost everyone is not playing to potential. If it is one player it probably is the player if it's everyone we have to look at the coaching.
yzerman19 Posted December 31, 2008 Posted December 31, 2008 I was referring to recruits. Joe is counted among the first rounders in my earlier post.
brianvf Posted December 31, 2008 Posted December 31, 2008 Gregoire was mentioned in the same breath as Schroeder as best newcomers to the WCHA - see them at par now? (please note - I'm not criticizing Gregoire - just using this as an illustration for our player development). Player development after half a season has put Schroeder on the WJC team and Gregoire with only 4 goals. Man, that Lucia can develop players quickly!
yzerman19 Posted December 31, 2008 Posted December 31, 2008 Under Blaiser and Berry there ws an understanding among the elite junior players int he country that UND could develop you into a pro player. That is why we had so many top end draft picks come to the Sioux. These kids were committed to UND way before they were drafted, so they committed under Blais and Berry. We are still getting top players due to the program's reputation and facilities, but I bet we'd be hard pressed to land Parise with Hakstol. Never underestimate the MN hockey family either. Even though Blaiser was a Sioux coach, he was a Gopher player and very well respected and integrated into the machine that is MN youth hockey and also USA hockey. Hakstol does not have that in with MN hockey or USA hockey.
yzerman19 Posted December 31, 2008 Posted December 31, 2008 edit: junior= under 18. be it midget, prep, international or junior A
siouxweet Posted December 31, 2008 Posted December 31, 2008 who recruited toews,oshie,finley,chorney and lee? I believe it was Hak, if not please correct me. that was perhaps the best recruited class this program has seen- they just underachieved. I also thought hak was in charge of recruiting under dean?
redwing77 Posted December 31, 2008 Posted December 31, 2008 who recruited toews,oshie,finley,chorney and lee? I believe it was Hak, if not please correct me. that was perhaps the best recruited class this program has seen- they just underachieved. I also thought hak was in charge of recruiting under dean? I was under the impression that both Dean and Hak recruited at the same time. I don't know who was responsible for whom though.
Goon Posted January 1, 2009 Author Posted January 1, 2009 I was under the impression that both Dean and Hak recruited at the same time. I don't know who was responsible for whom though. I was under the impression that all of the coaches did some recruiting?
ScottM Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 It's one thing to recruit talent, and it's another to get them to play to their fullest potential when they get to campus. Some coaches are gifted enough to do both well, and others need to rely on their staff to cover them when necessary.
yzerman19 Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 Dean Blais was an epic evaluator of talent. The recruits being mentioned: Oshie, Toews, Chorney, Lee were not needle ina hystack kind of finds from a recruiting perspective. They could've played basically anywhere. They signed with NoDak for Blais, facilities, exposure, development and program reputation. Hak was not part of the equation when they signed
brianvf Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 Hak was not part of the equation when they signed So even though he was an assistant coach and did most of the recruiting trips, he was not part of the equation?
Goon Posted January 1, 2009 Author Posted January 1, 2009 So even though he was an assistant coach and did most of the recruiting trips, he was not part of the equation? Yeah no doubt. I am sure Hak no bearing in the recruiting process.
Shawn-O Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 I hope im wrong but l'm chalking this season up as a flop. And no way in hell should Hakstol be fired.
DAR Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 I hope im wrong but l'm chalking this season up as a flop. And no way in hell should Hakstol be fired. Why not? Look at all the good NFL coaches that have been fired...Hakstol is not immune
yzerman19 Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 When a hot girl asks you for your phone number do you really care what her friends look like? That was the recruiting scenario...not that Blaiser is hot or a girl, but you get the metaphore
Blackheart Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 who recruited toews,oshie,finley,chorney and lee? I believe it was Hak, if not please correct me. that was perhaps the best recruited class this program has seen- they just underachieved. I also thought hak was in charge of recruiting under dean? Nope...they were second at best...1981-82 class recrituited by Gasparini and Co. included Archibald, Donnelly, Patrick, Sherven, Tippett, and Zombo. All played in the NHL...Patrick played about 20+ years and still nobody scored when he was on the ice...
Blackheart Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 DId Archie really have 37 goals and 197 PIMs his senior year? I loved the guy as a kid, but those stats are sick. If a top line player gets about 20 minutes of ice per game, Archie spent ten games in the box and still scored 37 goals. That is awesome. The guy was unbelievable that year...score a couple goals Friday night and then beat the hell out of the other team on Saturday night!! Frickin' legend!!
siouxweet Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 Why not? Look at all the good NFL coaches that have been fired...Hakstol is not immune he's not going anywhere, not after one possibly non playoff season. they also just gave him a nice extension last year I believe.
Goon Posted January 1, 2009 Author Posted January 1, 2009 he's not going anywhere, not after one possibly non playoff season. they also just gave him a nice extension last year I believe. If he gets into two season and no Playoffs and poor finishes it will get dicey for him. I think we should at least wait till the season is over before we call for his head.
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