[KnowtheFacts]

Diggler, on Sep 6 2005, 09:00 PM, said:

Maybe UND should change their name to the Fighting Winston Smith's.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

sure, why not. He's Fictional.

[PCM]

KnowtheFacts, on Sep 6 2005, 08:59 PM, said:

Dont clump me with GK.  And dont put words in MY mouth (or on my keyboard!).

Sorry. You're right. I shouldn't have done that.

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Now most of the people on this board have gone to great pains to discount the reputation of tribal leaders.

I haven't. Until someone does a scientific poll of the state's American Indian population on this issue, the votes of the tribal councils are the only barometer we have to go by.

However, that being said, my own personal opinion is that a tribal council member's position on this particular issue isn't going to get him or her elected or voted out of office. I just don't see it as an issue that most people on the reservations believe affects them one way or the other.

I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

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Maybe the tribal council will get to hear up close how stupid Kupchella sounds. You better hope he doesnt make any racial/stupid remarks as he has in the past.  ("I dont know his pedigree..")

I remember when Kupchella made that remark and the uproar it caused among the change-the-name crowd. And you know what? It was a perfect example of hyper-sensitivity gone wild.

Kupchella used the word in its proper context. Just because it's a word that some people associate with dogs doesn't mean that he was comparing an American Indian to a dog. Anyone who does serious geneology research will tell you that "pedigree" is a commonly used term to refer to people of all races.

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How can you be so sure they don't oppose the logo?  Your first sentence upholds a tribal opinion that goes along with your views and the next sentence questions the ones that dont.  That is very poor logic.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What I'm saying is that given the fluctuation in positions seen on the Spirit Lake and Turtle Mountain reservations over the past week, I find it difficult to believe that this is a "hot button" human rights or civil right issue on the reservations among most of the population. If it was, you wouldn't be seeing positions change from one day to the next.

Again, I could certainly be wrong, but that's how I see it.

[HockeyMom]

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That statue is disrespectful because neither the Family of Sitting Bull, nor the Tribe who he was a great leader of were contacted for the "honoring event".  It is disrespectful because Sitting Bull was for the most part a man of peace.  I guess the statue is not supposed to actually depict Sitting Bull himself, but how clear is that when you read the inscription? 

What?

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Have you ever been to an art museum?  By the slimmest definition, I guess even caricatures are works of art. 

It's not a caracarature, it's a work of art. By asking me if I have ever been to a museum that you are mocking my art background. I've been to several. I know what art is.

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Just tell me where I can find a Sioux indian with feathers stuck to his cheek war paint on his face (and I dont mean on the front of your tee shirt).

How do you figure those feathers are stuck on his face?

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We would honor the requests to not use "Fighting Sioux".  There are better ways to honor a race of people than in a hockey arena or on a football field.

Have you ever set foot on a field, a court, a diamond, rink?

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WELL the Majority of SIOUX *DO* oppose the use of the "fighting sioux" nickname and logo and that is what we're talking about here.

Prove it.

[Blackheart]

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If we really want to honor Native Americans we would honor the treaties US made.  We would honor the requests to not use "Fighting Sioux".  There are better ways to honor a race of people than in a hockey arena or on a football field.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, there is much better representation of the name on a casino/bingo parlor than a University that gives back to the Native American community.

We can agree to disagree because I'm sure I will never change your mind and you sure as hell won't change mine.

Have a nice day.

[jimdahl]

Tribal panel discusses UND nickname, logo

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No one spoke in favor of the nickname at Wednesday's panel.

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Part of LaRocque's research included slide shows of various images of the school's logo to both American Indian and non-Indian students. Unlike non-Indians, the Indian students "left depressed, angered, prone to violence and with no self-esteem," she said.

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"We are the only race of people to be used as mascots," Taken Alive said. He said some have used the example of the Fighting Irish of Notre Dame, but there is no comparison.

"The moment one of those little leprechauns walks into the room, we'll have to listen to him," Taken Alive said.

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Jeanotte said "he's almost positive" UND also will be allowed to keep the Fighting Sioux name and logo.

[Diggler]

This wasn't a panel. This was the equivilant of the the Christian Coalition holding a "panel" on abortion. There are no opposing views. It's not a panel, it's a preaching to the choir meeting.

[mksioux]

jimdahl, on Sep 7 2005, 10:12 PM, said:

Tribal panel discusses UND nickname, logo<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

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No one spoke in favor of the nickname at Wednesday's panel.

Big surprise.

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Part of LaRocque's research included slide shows of various images of the school's logo to both American Indian and non-Indian students. Unlike non-Indians, the Indian students "left depressed, angered, prone to violence and with no self-esteem," she said.

Prone to violence? What a crock of <you know what>. This doesn't even dignify a serious response.

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"We are the only race of people to be used as mascots," Taken Alive said. He said some have used the example of the Fighting Irish of Notre Dame, but there is no comparison.

"The moment one of those little leprechauns walks into the room, we'll have to listen to him," Taken Alive said.

That almost sounds like GK verbatim, completely ignoring the fact that the Irish are real people. Would Taken Alive be happier if UND used a caricature of an Indian for its logo instead?

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Jeanotte said "he's almost positive" UND also will be allowed to keep the Fighting Sioux name and logo.

That means nothing to me. Jeonotte is probably just a pessimist.

[HockeyMom]

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"The moment one of those little leprechauns walks into the room, we'll have to listen to him," Taken Alive said.

Actually, I stole a leprechaun's pot of gold one time. They're mean little ******* when you piss them off. I have a scar from the bite mark on my neck. Damn near lost a finger too.

It's not something I recommend.

EDIT Holy crap you can swear on here.

[ScottM]

Reminds me of those "sensitivity panels" that used to pop-up on campus every once in a while when somebody felt slighted by some comment or conduct. Basically a bunch of people of the same mind, preaching to each other to make themselves feel better.

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Unlike non-Indians, the Indian students "left depressed, angered, prone to violence and with no self-esteem," she said.

Maybe it was just you, Angela.

[redwing77]

I don't know why, but I'm not all that positive we will be able to keep the logo.

We're not FSU, Utah, or CMU even.

[Sioux,CO]

redwing77, on Sep 7 2005, 10:31 PM, said:

I don't know why, but I'm not all that positive we will be able to keep the logo.

We're not FSU, Utah, or CMU even.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My guess is that this one will be going to court. I can't see anyway that the NC$$ will remove UND from the list like they did with FSU or Utah. They are going to pick their battle and UND may be it. UND will have to fight to keep the logo and still be allowed all NC$$ post season games at home.

They still will take the licensing money from the sale of Fighting Sioux merchandise though.

[HockeyMom]

I saw the news clip on WDAZ. Looked like just a handfull of people attended.

[redwing77]

HockeyMom, on Sep 7 2005, 11:44 PM, said:

I saw the news clip on WDAZ.  Looked like just a handfull of people attended.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

THough one would think that's a good sign, I think that's all that needed to happen. The NCAA diversity committee's hyper sensitivity, plus the media coverage could very well have the affect those people wanted.

Other than the one tribal leader, I do not think there was any coverage of any others who opposed the Seminole nickname.

[mksioux]

The Herald's coverage

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Leigh Jeanotte, director of the university's American Indian student services, said the school's nickname has pit "white versus Indian and Indian versus Indian" at UND. He said the debate has gone on for about 40 years.

I would argue that's primarily the fault of people like Jeanotte. The only time I hear any resentment towards Indians whatsoever is when they act like GK.

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Gipp said Engelstad's threat continues "to hold hostage UND and the people of North Dakota."

This statement is utter nonsense. How can Engelstad being holding North Dakotans hostage when the vast majority of North Dakotans see nothing wrong with the nickname?

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"We may have to have (UND) kicking and screaming into the 21st century, but we will do it," Gipp said.

With comments like that, is it surprising there is resentment and no common ground?

[Taz Boy]

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"We are the only race of people to be used as mascots," Taken Alive said. He said some have used the example of the Fighting Irish of Notre Dame, but there is no comparison.

"The moment one of those little leprechauns walks into the room, we'll have to listen to him," Taken Alive said.

I'm confused by this statement. The implication here seems to be a logo that's a cartoonish caricature of a people is acceptable or at the very least irrelevant because it isn't an accurate representation of that people. Does that mean that the Cleveland Indians' logo is OK because a red chipmunk with a mouth bigger than Julia Roberts, a slicked-back center part, and a feather sticking out of his head is obviously a fictitious goofball character?

"The moment one of those little sun-burned rascals walks into the room..."

If true, then UND's efforts to drop the Blackhawk logo and go with the more majestic Brien painting were in fact a step backwards?

Quotes like these indicate the moving target that UND is up against. The NCAA should clear their heads and realize that they must get out of the make-everyone-happy sensitivity business and get back into insuring the integrity of competition among all student athletes.

taz

[MafiaMan]

Diggler, on Sep 7 2005, 10:19 PM, said:

This wasn't a panel.  This was the equivilant of the the Christian Coalition holding a "panel" on abortion.  There are no opposing views. It's not a panel, it's a preaching to the choir meeting.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Or the Democratic Party holding a panel on positive accomplishments during the Bush administration?

[Goon]

mksioux, on Sep 8 2005, 10:09 AM, said:

This statement is utter nonsense.  How can Engelstad being holding North Dakotans hostage when the vast majority of North Dakotans see nothing wrong with the nickname?

Not to mention the fact that Ralph is dead. I guess still think he is pulling strings from the grave.

[Fedorov]

I would really like to see the dissertation discussed. UND research typically consists of college students taking psychology classes. These students want extra credit and typically consist of one appearance. Assuming this is true, it means that the students reported feeling depressed (current mood, not necessarily the overall affect) after doing a study that they do for extra credit. Is this just a statistica difference, or is there clinical significance. I wish I was at UND to read this. I know that Angela is very smart and she is nice. I also know she was in the INPSYDE program that has a constant focus to change the name. This is the first time I have heard of any UND research with these results.

[ScottM]

And like most studies purportedly based on "statistics" it can be easily skewed to reflect the author's biases. I'd bet Angela probably used the most egregious examples she could find to elicit the responses she "reported". Then again, I'm of the opinion that the "science" of psychology is about a half step above divining the future with animal entrails or colored stones.

[Goon]

ScottM, on Sep 8 2005, 11:10 AM, said:

And like most studies purportedly based on "statistics" it can be easily skewed to reflect the author's biases.  I'd bet Angela probably used the most egregious examples she could find to elicit the responses she "reported".  Then again, I'm of the opinion that the "science" of psychology is about a half step above divining the future with animal entrails or colored stones. 
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Social Science Research is the most manipulated research on the face of the earth, and before anyone tries to tell me other wise, please, I majored in it. For the most part there is no objectivity in the Social (soft) Science research, besides the majority of the researchers are extreme left wingers who claim to do value free research (nothing wrong with being a democrat, however, I believe extremists are harmful on both sides).

First thing they teach you in graduate school is to look at the study and the tools they used to measure the data, look for the basis and the credibility of the researcher. Most researcher are looking for a result before they do their research. Of course they are going to try to skew the results to meet thier needs. Political research is done the same way.