Great West Preseason Poll

[Bison06]

Apparently you think that NDSU is a lot better than they used to be. You also must think they are a lot better than all DII or UND. UND and NDSU did have a common opponent last year. They both played Southern Utah. The scores of the games were similar but from the start of the game to the end UND dominated their game much more so than NDSU. Are you saying that that was just a fluke? UND played them on the road and NDSU had a home game too.

Yes, I do think NDSU is ALOT better than they used to be. I am not sure what is being accomplished by comparing our scores against Southern Utah. I think time and time again comparative scoring has been shown to be a poor yardstick to measure two teams.

Also, I don't think it is unreasonable to think that a team that was ranked #1 in FCS a good portion of the year and beat two I-A schools is better than all of DII. Do you?

[FargoBison]

I wouldn't be so sure about saying UCD has greatly improved or is near the top of the FCS and they have have dumped a ton of money into their program(new stadium and they went from around 20 scholarships to 63).

Here is a breakdown of their last 10 years....

FCS DII

5-6 9-3

6-5 10-3

6-5 12-1

6-4 10-2

6-4 10-2

29-24 52-11

UCD by the way made the playoffs in DII every one of those five years. I think they have found that the FCS offers much stiffer competition. I'm not saying UND will go the way of UCD, UNC, or NDSU just that the transition is hardly a sure bet.

[BobIwabuchiFan]

"NDSU consistently won 7-9 games a year every year leading up to the transition(except 2002). After the transition NDSU has won 7-10 games a year. I think a reasonable person would see these 4 year intervals as quite similar."

I would say given your statement above that if the two 4 year intervals are showing really no significant difference in your mind, then how does one account for the supposed tougher competition when there is no difference in win/loss records (e.g. For the stated time periods above, their is no difference in competition even if we leave out the bad record of 2-8)?

"If it makes you feel better to point at NDSU and say "They actually did better when they made the transition, FCS must be a joke" then by all means go right ahead. The facts just don't support that opinion. New coach, more funding, city re-investing as a fan base, these are the things that have gone right with NDSU's transition(SDSU also, for that matter), not the level of competition. I expect, as I always have, that UND and USD will come out of the transition very well, but it will have little/nothing to do with NDSU and SDSU's success. I think most of you would agree."

To the contrary, most UND fans know why NDSU did well in FCS because they have a strong program that has always competed at the highest level of DII and that transitioning to remote conference in DIAA was not going to be anything competitively different than their previous 3-4 years of competition in the NCC. In addition, UND fans have to be concerned that the NCC did suffer in competition with the earlier departure of NC and then NDSU and SDSU. But, head to head competitions with the same remote conference has yielded the same outcomes experienced by NDSU = beat up on the low rung competition and give/take with the top tier players.

Lastly, NDSU did beat Minnesota Div IA in Minneapolis and this is something that no comparison between UND and NDSU can be done because UND has not defeated that level of talent (Exception being hockey). But, given the focus that both Universities give to developing excellent football programs at both a DII level and now at a DIAA level I would hope we would be able to match your feat soon!

[Bison06]

My point that our records were similar was only in response to DaveK saying we have done significantly better since moving up. I account for the similar records by saying that we have had better coaches, better players, better fan supports etc. to go along with the upgrade in competition.

As I have said many times I expect UND to do very well through the transition, my point was only to say that NDSU doing well doesn't indicate how UND will do at all. They may do better, they may do the same, they may do much worse who knows? You can't compare the two situations because so many variables have taken effect since NDSU made the move.

My qualm wasn't with the Sioux majority. I realize most Sioux fans are very level headed about things of this nature. Most, if not all, of the post was directed at DaveK.

[star2city]

I wouldn't be so sure about saying UCD has greatly improved or is near the top of the FCS and they have have dumped a ton of money into their program(new stadium and they went from around 20 scholarships to 63).

Here is a breakdown of their last 10 years....

FCS DII

5-6 9-3

6-5 10-3

6-5 12-1

6-4 10-2

6-4 10-2

29-24 52-11

UCD by the way made the playoffs in DII every one of those five years. I think they have found that the FCS offers much stiffer competition. I'm not saying UND will go the way of UCD, UNC, or NDSU just that the transition is hardly a sure bet.

The schedule upgrade for UC-Davis from DII to FCS has been much greater than what NDSU or SDSU experienced in their transitions. UC-Davis largely made the DII playoffs every year because they were the top DII western team, with nother school even close. Much of their schedule was dotted with NAIA and non-schol or low-schol DIAA. Central and Western Washington didn't make real commitments to football until they joined the NCC. NDSU and SDSU (and UNC, ugh) moved from a high D2 league to a high DIAA league, whereas UC-Davis moved from a low D2 schedule to a high DIAA league.

UC-Davis's win over Stanford was just as or even more significant than NDSU's over Minnesota, as UC-Davis was still ramping up its scholarship levels.

UC-Davis schedule

A lot rests on the shoulders of Coach Mussman and the foundation built by Lennon. I like the chances of UND football at the IAA level (ramping up faster than SDSU's successful transiton), but with injuries and intangibles, one never knows.

[Bison Dan]

Although I understand that nothing is guaranteed, my point was that (based on NDSU's succes) I will be shocked if UND doesn't enjoy similar success in their transition. The attitude remains, if they can do it then surely we should be able to do it also.

I hope all sioux fans think like you do. Do you mean in all sports? Besides fb and wbb - I think the rest of your sports are in big trouble. Most weren't competitive in DII let alone DI.

[BobIwabuchiFan]

I hope all sioux fans think like you do. Do you mean in all sports? Besides fb and wbb - I think the rest of your sports are in big trouble. Most weren't competitive in DII let alone DI.

I think your logic is agreeable with most Sioux fans...The primary sports are going to struggle and most likely pull through and the secondary sports will have a tough time enhancing their status. I would also think that given UND's current Hockey program that generates significant dollars will also help with the football program as it continues to stabilize and become a positive revenue generator...Has anyone done a simple cash flow statement on UND's sports teams to date and how they compare with NDSU? I would be interested in seeing who will be generating the most income for each other's programs and if this will have any effect on future product...

[mksioux]

I think your logic is agreeable with most Sioux fans...The primary sports are going to struggle and most likely pull through and the secondary sports will have a tough time enhancing their status. I would also think that given UND's current Hockey program that generates significant dollars will also help with the football program as it continues to stabilize and become a positive revenue generator...Has anyone done a simple cash flow statement on UND's sports teams to date and how they compare with NDSU? I would be interested in seeing who will be generating the most income for each other's programs and if this will have any effect on future product...

Oh boy. I can already hear the forensic accountants firing up their calculators.

[gabe01]

Using SDSU and NDSU both as examples, it almost seems as if playing a I-AA schedule is not as tough as the old NCC schedule used to be. Not that those teams played the toughest I-AA opponents in the first few years of their transition, but their won/lost records actually improved from where they had been while playing D2 schedules just a couple of years earlier. Weird.

Comparing the NCC in the last few years to the old NCC with NDSU, SDSU, and Northern Colorado is a not fair. It's a watered down version.

The NCC of recent years had 2 great teams... UND and UNO. The other 7 teams are extremely average. Augustana, Western Washington, Duluth, St Cloud, Mankato, Central Washington, and South Dakota are easy.

Comparing the NCC schedule to NDSU's recent schedule is silly...

Are you saying the NCC schedule is tougher than NDSU's schedule against Minnesota, Western Michigan, Cal Davis, Cal Poly, SDSU, Sam Houston, and Western Illinois. THose are 7 tough games. Then you got the 4 easy ones in SUU, Mississippi Valley, Illinois State, and Stephen F Austin.

UND had 1 tough game against UNO and 7 other easy conference games. Throw in the cake games against Humboldt and Southern Utah and that's 9 easy games.

Then we go to the Gateway schedule next year...

You could say that the UND/NDSU schedule the 1st year in transition is arguably a step down from the NCC. Although NDSU had UNC and SDSU follow them into D1-AA. UND only has a weak SD team and a really weak Great West.

Man those old NCC days were tough!

[Shawn-O]

Don't you just love how the NCC and the Great West are the greatest thing since sliced bread when NDSU is a part of them, but then they become "weak and watered down" upon the AC's departure? Poly and Davis were strong, now they're weak. Do you honestly believe the crap you post, Gabe?

[Siouxper Sized]

Comparing the NCC in the last few years to the old NCC with NDSU, SDSU, and Northern Colorado is a not fair. It's a watered down version.

The NCC of recent years had 2 great teams... UND and UNO. The other 7 teams are extremely average. Augustana, Western Washington, Duluth, St Cloud, Mankato, Central Washington, and South Dakota are easy.

Comparing the NCC schedule to NDSU's recent schedule is silly...

Are you saying the NCC schedule is tougher than NDSU's schedule against Minnesota, Western Michigan, Cal Davis, Cal Poly, SDSU, Sam Houston, and Western Illinois. THose are 7 tough games. Then you got the 4 easy ones in SUU, Mississippi Valley, Illinois State, and Stephen F Austin.

UND had 1 tough game against UNO and 7 other easy conference games. Throw in the cake games against Humboldt and Southern Utah and that's 9 easy games.

Then we go to the Gateway schedule next year...

You could say that the UND/NDSU schedule the 1st year in transition is arguably a step down from the NCC. Although NDSU had UNC and SDSU follow them into D1-AA. UND only has a weak SD team and a really weak Great West.

Man those old NCC days were tough!

The old NCC days were extremely tough!!!

The last year that the true NCC was intact, UND, NDSU, USD, SDSU, UNC, UNO, St. Cloud, Augustana and Mankato were battling for a 16 game playoff field that wasn't expanded to 24 until 2003. That meant that with only 4 teams going to the regional bracket, and 3 conferences per region, that if you lost more than a game, you probably had a good chance of missing the playoffs.

If the NCC with those same teams was to become a 1aa (FCS) conference today minus Augie and Mankato, it would be a competitive 1aa conference. With 15 conferences in 1aa, the Gateway and the Big Sky seem to the most powerful conferences from top to bottom. Even though they haven't produced a champion for a while, they have been close.

The NCC reflected what these two conferences stand for in hard nosed, defense orientated disciplined football. It is sad that these teams split up amongst untimely transitions into division one, but if you put NDSU, SDSU, UND, USD, UNC and UNO even though they are to remain DII, into a 1aa conference, they could easily be a top 5 conference in 1aa.

NCC football was very tough, and even in the past few years, still a great conference.

[Bison Dan]

Don't you just love how the NCC and the Great West are the greatest thing since sliced bread when NDSU is a part of them, but then they become "weak and watered down" upon the AC's departure? Poly and Davis were strong, now they're weak. Do you honestly believe the crap you post, Gabe?

So you think that the NCC was stronger after UNC, NDSU, and SDSU left? As far as the GWC - two strong teams leave and two transitioning team join. You figure it out.

[gabe01]

Don't you just love how the NCC and the Great West are the greatest thing since sliced bread when NDSU is a part of them, but then they become "weak and watered down" upon the AC's departure? Poly and Davis were strong, now they're weak. Do you honestly believe the crap you post, Gabe?

I shouldn't have called the Great West weak. I meant to say it was weaker than when NDSU, SDSU, and UNC formed it 5 years ago. Davis and Poly are both very good teams. Especially in California. And yes, when you take 2 teams that were ranked and replace them with 2 transitional teams, it's watering it down. That doesn't even take into account Northern Colorado, who was very good and only recently struggled.

I never called the Great West the greatest thing since sliced bread. In fact I called it a convenient schedule arrangement at best. I know you hate NDSU, probably as much as I hate UND, but along with UNC and SDSU , NDSU was a big part of the NCC and Great West.

You could even go as far to say they were the driving force since they were the best team. Nobody came close to NDSU's 8 National Championships except for Northern Colorado's 3 and UND's 1. Let me ask you this... how many National Championships has the NCC won since NDSU, SDSU, and UNC left for greener pastures?

UND and UNO have made the playoffs every year knowing each other were the teams to beat. Hell they were more concerned with teams like Grand Valley State because it was a lock they were going to the playoffs. You couldn't do that in the old days. NDSU, UND, and UNC were incredible. USD, SDSU, and UNO were very good as well and could have won most other leagues. St Cloud, Mankato, and Augustana had their moments too. The team that won the conference usually won the National Championship.

Your clearly stuck in the 30's if you refer to NDSU as AC. You must be a crusty old guy! Man they say the memory is one of the first things to go.

[sultan]

The name AC and football championships are both clearly a part of past history at NDSU. If you have a good MEMORY it can't be selective.

[Bison Dan]

The name AC and football championships are both clearly a part of past history at NDSU. If you have a good MEMORY it can't be selective.

So is flickertails!

[gabe01]

UND and USD right now are stronger than NDSU, SDSU, and UNC were five years ago. Try a new spin.

You can't compare UND and USD now to NDSU, UNC, and SDSU from 5 years ago because the NCC was much weaker. D2 football has taken serious steps backwards. There is no way to prove or disprove your statement unless they play and they haven't.

5 years ago, Northern Colorado and UND were the #1 and #2 teams. NDSU and SDSU were clearly #3 and #4. USD was pittiful and easily #5.

Just like I said, all of the teams played each other extremely tough except for USD. Even when NDSU had their wost season in history, they lost 3 close games to UND, USD, an SDSU.

The point I was trying to make earlier is the NCC was a kick ass conference back then and the most recent version was weak.

Ironically enough, UNC had the best record but has been a complete flop in D1-AA football since moving to the Big Sky.

NORTHERN COLORADO

2002 - 10-1 - lost in quarter finals of D2 playoffs (beat UND, NDSU, USD only loss at Montana)

2003 - 9-2 - finished the season ranked #19 in first year of D1-AA football

http://uncbears.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/s...otbl-sched.html

NORTH DAKOTA STATE

2002 - 2-8 (Babich last season, lost to UND by 6, USD in 4OT, and SDSU by 5)

2003 - 8-3 (Bohls first season, last in D2 beat SDSU, USD, Montana, and lost to UND in OT)

SOUTH DAKOTA STATE

2002 - 6-4 (beat NDSU, USD, lost to UNC and UND)

2003 - 7-4 (beat USD, lost to NDSU an UND)

SOUTH DAKOTA

2002 - 3-8 (lost to UNC, SDSU, UND, beat NDSU in 4OT at home)

2003 - 6-6 (lost to NDSU, SDSU, UND)

http://www.usdcoyotes.com/sports/football/review.asp

NORTH DAKOTA

2002 - 6-5 (lost to UNC, beat NDSU, SDSU, USD)

2003 - 9-1 (went undefeated in conference, playoffs, beat SDSU by 1 point and NDSU in OT)

[dakotadan]

The point I was trying to make earlier is the NCC was a kick ass conference back then and the most recent version was weak.

If you had said weaker I would have just rolled my eyes and been done with it. But this is just typical bison spew that anything without them is worthless. Why don't you take your dribble back over to www.bisonville.smacktalk.com where it will be appreciated.

[UND Fan]

DaveK - why don't you take your debate over this stuff to the Bison website so we don't have to put up with it. You know that you and the Bison fans aren't ever going to agree on these issues. So, if you want to waste your time arguing with them, please do it on their site!

Thanks!

[moser53]

DaveK - why don't you take your debate over this stuff to the Bison website so we don't have to put up with it. You know that you and the Bison fans aren't ever going to agree on these issues. So, if you want to waste your time arguing with them, please do it on their site!

Thanks!

We need more great Sioux fans like Dave K.

Keep putting there feet in the fire Dave K. Somebody has to.

Nothing against you UND fan.

[sultan]

Gabe apparently thinks that NCC teams are just pathetic now compared to the NCC when NDSU was a member. He thinks NDSU is at a totally different level of football now. Just last year we handled Southern Utah much easier than NDSU did, and we played them on the road. And that's right, UND went on the road not long ago and beat a very good and ranked team in Northern Iowa. It sure would appear that NDSU plays at a totally different level now. Yea right!!!! Is the overall level of football at DIAA better than DII? I would hope so. Is the gap as wide as NDSU fans seem to want to portray? I don't think so. Is the level of NDSU football at an off the charts different level compared to UND? I don't think so. I really don't think anyone is debating that from top to bottom the NCC used to be stronger, but the teams competing for the NCC title the last few years are just as strong as they have always been.

[UND Fan]

We need more great Sioux fans like Dave K.

Keep putting there feet in the fire Dave K. Somebody has to.

Nothing against you UND fan.

Please understand that I wish we did have more fans with Dave's passion but, in my opinion, we will never get Bison fans to agree to our thinking nor will we agree to theirs. I personally get tired of all the back and forth rhetoric. I would much rather talk about our teams, our players, our schedules than how all these things relate to SU!

[moser53]

A number of years ago after Rush Limbaugh had lost alot of weight. Paul Begala Democratic strategist

contacted Rush and said this. Rush congratulations on finally controlling what you put in your mouth.

Now if you could only control what comes out of it. Dave K. doesn't control what comes out of the mouth

of people who post on Sioux Sports. He only responds to it.

[Siouxper Sized]

Gabe apparently thinks that NCC teams are just pathetic now compared to the NCC when NDSU was a member. He thinks NDSU is at a totally different level of football now. Just last year we handled Southern Utah much easier than NDSU did, and we played them on the road. And that's right, UND went on the road not long ago and beat a very good and ranked team in Northern Iowa. It sure would appear that NDSU plays at a totally different level now. Yea right!!!! Is the overall level of football at DIAA better than DII? I would hope so. Is the gap as wide as NDSU fans seem to want to portray? I don't think so. Is the level of NDSU football at an off the charts different level compared to UND? I don't think so. I really don't think anyone is debating that from top to bottom the NCC used to be stronger, but the teams competing for the NCC title the last few years are just as strong as they have always been.

I think this says it quite well! The NCC from top to bottom obviously wasn't as strong recently as in the past but its top three teams every year were very talented. NDSU fans always try to water down our Northern Iowa win, when we went on the road and beat the #3 ranked 1aa team at the time, who was the National Champion runner up the previous year and returned most of its team that season, but did the Bison ever have a win that big when they were DII, and don't say Montana!?

No doubt UND should have went D1aa when NDSU did, but the fact is that when NDSU left DII, UND had beaten them 9 out of the last 12 times they played and NDSU has NEVER hosted a playoff game in the Fargo Dome since it was built in 1992. Call it what you will, but NDSU was not on top of their game when they left, they were running for cover. They hadn't won, or better yet, bought a National Championship since 1990 and UND defeated them on the road in every game except the 2000 season. So much for calling it the Fargo Dome fellas. Besides, UND leads the all time series between the two schools 62-45-3. UND also has won the Nickel Trophy the most times, with 35 wins to 30 for NDSU. Yaya, go blow the dust off your trophies from when your grandpa played, the fact of the matter is that UND owned NDSU before they jumped ship, and who has a National Championship this decade?

Brag about your victory over Minnesota all you want, but don't you think there is a reason why no Gopher fans were at the game? Seriously, the Gophers probably would have had a tough time cracking the top 25 in 1aa last year. And if you break it down, a 1aa team should be able to play a 1a team closer that a DII team can play a Iaa team because the difference in scholarships is less. (85-63=22 and 63-36=27) That being the case, the Northern Iowa win seems more impressive than the Gopher win. Throw in the fact that the Norther Iowa fans all but sold out that game with their fans, not the opposing teams. Whatever, I can't wait until UND and NDSU start playing each other again!

[Matt]

I think this says it quite well! The NCC from top to bottom obviously wasn't as strong recently as in the past but its top three teams every year were very talented. NDSU fans always try to water down our Northern Iowa win, when we went on the road and beat the #3 ranked 1aa team at the time, who was the National Champion runner up the previous year and returned most of its team that season, but did the Bison ever have a win that big when they were DII, and don't say Montana!?

No doubt UND should have went D1aa when NDSU did, but the fact is that when NDSU left DII, UND had beaten them 9 out of the last 12 times they played and NDSU has NEVER hosted a playoff game in the Fargo Dome since it was built in 1992. Call it what you will, but NDSU was not on top of their game when they left, they were running for cover. They hadn't won, or better yet, bought a National Championship since 1990 and UND defeated them on the road in every game except the 2000 season. So much for calling it the Fargo Dome fellas. Besides, UND leads the all time series between the two schools 62-45-3. UND also has won the Nickel Trophy the most times, with 35 wins to 30 for NDSU. Yaya, go blow the dust off your trophies from when your grandpa played, the fact of the matter is that UND owned NDSU before they jumped ship, and who has a National Championship this decade?

Brag about your victory over Minnesota all you want, but don't you think there is a reason why no Gopher fans were at the game? Seriously, the Gophers probably would have had a tough time cracking the top 25 in 1aa last year. And if you break it down, a 1aa team should be able to play a 1a team closer that a DII team can play a Iaa team because the difference in scholarships is less. (85-63=22 and 63-36=27) That being the case, the Northern Iowa win seems more impressive than the Gopher win. Throw in the fact that the Norther Iowa fans all but sold out that game with their fans, not the opposing teams. Whatever, I can't wait until UND and NDSU start playing each other again!

I don't necessarily disagree with your overall point, but it is interesting you dismiss NDSU's national titles:

Yaya, go blow the dust off your trophies from when your grandpa played, the fact of the matter is that UND owned NDSU before they jumped ship, and who has a National Championship this decade?

yet you are happy to go back in time to support your own case:

Besides, UND leads the all time series between the two schools 62-45-3. UND also has won the Nickel Trophy the most times, with 35 wins to 30 for NDSU

[Herd]

Five years ago UNO, UND, and UNC were clearly the top three teams. NDSU and SDSU were #4 and #5. Last year UNO, UND, and USD were clearly the top three teams. Granted, the conference wasn't as strong top to bottom last year as it was five years ago, but just as strong if not stronger at the top.

I know that comparing everything to 2003 is convenient for you, but it has no basis in reality. If you think that und and usd will be successful because of where ndsu was in 2003 (one of its worst records (not worst team) in history), then you haven't put much thought into things. It is all about scholarships and how well you leverage them at the next level of 63. The pecking order in 2003 means nothing. It's a new ballgame and its all about recruiting and funding at the 63 level. Und could be successful or they could pull a Unc, but your DII playoff appearances because of watered down competition will have no bearing on your success at the 63 scholarship level.

If you think the 2003 pecking order still exists, then you must not have TV at your house.