Fullerton Still Talking Big Sky Expansion

[FargoBison]

OBTW, you will get in the Gateway and hope you are pleased with it. Furthermore, I do wish NDSU all the "luck" in pursuing their dreams, however little value that has. But here's the difference: I hope and pray UND follows on a path toward a destiny that it was created for.

If the Big Sky is the path of Destiny for UND I hope you guys get in. When NDSU got into the Mid-Con our path just started, next step is the Gateway and then the MVC.

[southpaw]

I could see the Montana schools, especially U of M, threatening to make a play for the WAC the next time Big Sky expansion comes around unless the other presidents take a hard look at adding a school or two that is an attractive peer institution to them, academically, athletically, and geographically. Who will be available in the next 5 years that fits that criteria?

NO! don't even post hypotheticals, you are just wearing green colored glasses and you should know that because ndsu didn't get in, UND will never get in. you just make yourself look even more dumb when you suggest that UND has some benefits. listen to ndsu fans, they know whats up. obviously great joe chapman's knowledge has funneled down through his underlings to all ndsu fans.

[Holdem]

I hope they get in too, but its not going to be any time soon. Hearing you guys talk about this reminds me of the talk by NDSU fans after the Decision 1 announcement. There were a lot of positives with the BSC and it looked like a lock. Fullerton was encouraging and things looked good. We had connectins at the presidential level and the field looked well plowed.

Even if you do make the move, which wont happen at least until the lawsuit is settled, there will be no conference consideration until the third or fourth year of your tansition. The GWFC is a possibility, but allowing you in will have negative impacts on the playoff hopes since the GWFC is without an auto bid.

Travel situations for the BSC schools opposed to moving east have not changed.

Fullerton has been clear that nobody will be added from the Dakotas unless the BSC loses members.

If the BSC does lose members it will be one or both of the Montana schools.

The most likely things are those events that will grow from the current situation. When you start reaching, like starcity is doing, the considerations are interesting but improbable.

Most likely to happen if the move is made: Eventual GWFC entry, joining the scheduling alliances set up by the Great Land Grants for other sports. Eventual application to the Mid Con or formalizing your BB scheduling alliances into a new conference if enough area schools move with you. I dont think there will be any consideration by the Mid Con until the 3 or 4th year of transition. If you are admitted it wont be until the transition is complete.

[MplsBison]

I think regardless if Denver, UVSC, UND, or SUU is added (SUU being the most logical choice at the moment), Montana wants to be with Boise, Idaho, Utah State, Nevada, etc. I think their fans are getting antsy and I think the administration is going to give in within a couple of years.

Not sure how Montana State will react to that. I know they would want to follow UM in an ideal world. Not sure if they could afford it.

[Holdem]

I hope they get in too, but its not going to be any time soon. Hearing you guys talk about this reminds me of the talke by NDSU fans after the Decision 1 announcement. There were a lot of positives with the BSC and it looked like a lock. Fullerton was encouraging and things looked good. We had connectins at the presidential level and the field looked well plowed.

Even if you do make the move, which wont happen at least until the lawsuit is settled, there will be no conference consideration until the third or fourth year of your tansition. The GWFC is a possibility, but allowing you in will have negative impacts on the playoff hopes since the GWFC is without an auto bid.

Travel situations for the BSC schools opposed to moving east have not changed.

Fullerton has been clear that nobody will be added from the Dakotas unless the BSC loses members.

If the BSC does lose members it will be one or both of the Montana schools.

The most likely things are those events that will grow from the current situation. When you start reaching, like starcity is doing, the considerations are interesting but improbable.

Most likely to happen if the move is made: Eventual GWFC entry, joining the scheduling alliances set up by the Great Land Grants for other sports. Eventual application to the Mid Con or formalizing your BB scheduling alliances into a new conference if enough area schools move with you. I dont think there will be any consideration by the Mid Con until the 3 or 4th year of transition. If you are admitted it wont be until the transition is complete.

A conference invite is no guarantee. If you move alone your geographic situation is similar to Pan American. It took IPFW almost 10 yrs. Your going to need a lot of support from the Great Land Grants if the Mid Con is in your future. Thats something that should have been considered when your administration was offering so much gracious support after Decision 1 was announced.

[The Sicatoka]

Why are fans of a school that just got into a conference so worried about what a school that is about to begin a transition is doing? It's the same speculations, just in a different timeframe.

My opinion only, but greatest flight-risk from the BSC right now is Sac State. Games against other CSU schools (compared to games v. Northern Colorado and Northern Arizona) would do them much better for travel. It'd probably help them more in recruiting base also. If the Pacific wing of the BSC were to weaken who knows what comes after that.

It should be a fun ride.

[Gothmog]

You know, I've probably been out of line on this issue, and, if so, I apologize.

It just drives me crazy to see Star2City pawn his speculation off as fact.

Personally, I would have no problem with UND being in the Big Sky and NDSU in the MidCon/GWFC or Gateway - that may be what's best for everyone. It's the notion that, if that were to happen, it would somehow constitute a failure for NDSU that bothers me. One school's success does not constitute a failure for the other.

[MplsBison]

Personally, I don't see UND in a Montana less BSC as a success, but at least it's a conference.

[Riverman]

Personally, I don't see UND in a Montana less BSC as a success, but at least it's a conference.

Very true and with two more schools bolting out of D2 in South Dakota....

Maybe the old NCC is on it's way back in D1 form?

But since we are not in and Montana is not out, isn't it fun to speculate MplsBison?

[MplsBison]

USD I expect to announce the move this year. In my little fantasy pipe dream world, the 4 Dakota flagship universities would all try to stay together in the same conference, but who knows what will actually happen.

I still don't know if I believe that Augi would move up.

I could see that the Sioux Falls market is a pretty big, growing market and that they would try to emulate a school like Creighton.

If they are going to move up, they probably should drop football. But I just don't know if I see it.

Either way, I don't see a DI NCC for quite some time, if ever. NDSU and SDSU (and hopefully UND and USD) will be in the Mid Con and the rest of the schools from the old NCC I don't se emoving up.

[Goon]

The GWFC is a possibility, but allowing you in will have negative impacts on the playoff hopes since the GWFC is without an auto bid.

If UND joined the GWFC wouldn't that give the GWFC enough schools to get an autobid?

I personally think the GWFC would be a great conference. Renewed rivalries.

[Hammersmith]

If UND joined the GWFC wouldn't that give the GWFC enough schools to get an autobid?

I personally think the GWFC would be a great conference. Renewed rivalries.

Once again, UND will not help with an autobid until 2014. Even then, an autobid would have to be taken away from another conference; probably MEAC or Ohio Valley. Also, the GWFC will be in competition with the Northeast Conference when their agreement with the Pioneer League is up in 2008.

If UND is able to schedule 6 DI schools for 2008, they would be a DI 'counter' and would count toward the 7 DI wins required to be considered for an at-large bid. Even so, UND might be considered a drag on NDSU's, SDSU's, UC Davis', and Cal Poly's strength of schedule by the east-coast selection committee members. I'm not saying it's fair, just that it could very well happen. I would look for a 2009 invite +/-1 year. Of course everything goes to hell if NDSU and SDSU are invited into Gateway in 2008 or 2009.

In any case, I wouldn't be suprised if UND starts off as a provisional member until 2012. The other reclassifying schools didn't have to, but they were charter members. On the other hand, it also wouldn't suprise me if they were added as full members right away.

[Holdem]

Thats right, 8 auto bid conferences and 8 at large playoff bids in DI-AA. The auto bids are awarded each year. The GWFC probably wont get an auto bid no matter how many core members they have playing together for 2 or more years that are fully eligible. NDSU/SDSU want the Gateway. After that who cares?

The Gateway might happen because of a move out by Western Kentucky. Its going to take a move to get you guys into a conference too. Only exception is the GWFC, you might make it in even if the Great Land Grants don't get the Gateway.

I also think your going to have trouble unless the naming issue is settled. I don't know how it will come out, but the WCHA even talked about the appropriateness of your membership, but I think grandfathered it. Since they are here they are in.

One last thing, Your going to be asking for a lot of help and favors. A lot of college presidents are going to resent your position, especially if you are trying to join a conference where other schools have changed, or are in other ways associated with schools that did. There is also going to be resentment for wasting NCAA resources. Whatever the outcome, the failure has been an inability to strike an accord with The Tribes.

[andtheHomeoftheSIOUX!!]

I also think your going to have trouble unless the naming issue is settled. I don't know how it will come out, but the WCHA even talked about the appropriateness of your membership, but I think grandfathered it. Since they are here they are in.

When it comes to conference membership, having competitve sports teams should be the top priority. Unless some pressidents have a big problem with nicknames (like SCSU's) I do not think that will have much of an impact.

One last thing, Your going to be asking for a lot of help and favors. A lot of college presidents are going to resent your position, especially if you are trying to join a conference where other schools have changed, or are in other ways associated with schools that did.

UND is doing what is best for the nickname. If other schools have changed their's, perhaps they should not have been so quick to bow down to the NCAA.

There is also going to be resentment for wasting NCAA resources.

Wasting NCAA resources! What! It was the NCAA who used their own resources to begin this thing. It was also the NCAA who forced schools that had what were deemed to be "hostle and abussive" nicknames and/or logos to waste their school resources on doing a study on them.

Whatever the outcome, the failure has been an inability to strike an accord with The Tribes.

A school should not have to have tribal consent. UMass does not have to have consent from the group of people* they are named for. Heck, the Minutemen do not even exist anymore so who could they get consent from?

*Whether a team is named for an Indian Tribe (Fighting Sioux), a nationality (Fighting Irish), some settlers (Sooners), or a historical army (Minutemen) they are all named for a group of people. Why are Indians different then the other groups of people?

[bincitysioux]

Once again, UND will not help with an autobid until 2014. Even then, an autobid would have to be taken away from another conference; probably MEAC or Ohio Valley. Also, the GWFC will be in competition with the Northeast Conference when their agreement with the Pioneer League is up in 2008.

If UND is able to schedule 6 DI schools for 2008, they would be a DI 'counter' and would count toward the 7 DI wins required to be considered for an at-large bid. Even so, UND might be considered a drag on NDSU's, SDSU's, UC Davis', and Cal Poly's strength of schedule by the east-coast selection committee members. I'm not saying it's fair, just that it could very well happen. I would look for a 2009 invite +/-1 year. Of course everything goes to hell if NDSU and SDSU are invited into Gateway in 2008 or 2009.

In any case, I wouldn't be suprised if UND starts off as a provisional member until 2012. The other reclassifying schools didn't have to, but they were charter members. On the other hand, it also wouldn't suprise me if they were added as full members right away.

Hammersmith, can you expand on your statement about the Northeast Conference and Pioneer Leauge. I know the Pioneer is non-scholarship and doesn't participate in the playoffs, and isn't the Northeast limited scholarship? Are they going full scholarship and trying to get an autobid or something?

Also another question for you or star2city or someone that knows all the procedures and rules for the NCAA divisions. How come the GWFC would have to take an autobid from an existing conference? Couldn't they just do away with one of the at-large bids when the conference meets the autobid criteria membership-wise? The GWFC is one of the top 3 I-AA football conferences, and is only going to get stronger when/if UND joins. Or is it a by-law or something that half of the playoff field must come from autobids and the other half from at-large bids?

[Riverman]

News about a BSC members.

The Bad,

Ouch!!

The Good,Grrrr

[Smoggy]

I also think your going to have trouble unless the naming issue is settled. I don't know how it will come out, but the WCHA even talked about the appropriateness of your membership, but I think grandfathered it. Since they are here they are in.

I've been on this board for three years now, and no news has come out that the WCHA has been looking at dropping UND because of their name during that time. Maybe SCSU raised a stink along with UW, but I doubt that UW did, because almost all their top attendance records are against us. So either you are a Bison fan with too much vested interest in the Sioux or you are full of !@$!. Which is it?

[Hammersmith]

Hammersmith, can you expand on your statement about the Northeast Conference and Pioneer Leauge. I know the Pioneer is non-scholarship and doesn't participate in the playoffs, and isn't the Northeast limited scholarship? Are they going full scholarship and trying to get an autobid or something?

Also another question for you or star2city or someone that knows all the procedures and rules for the NCAA divisions. How come the GWFC would have to take an autobid from an existing conference? Couldn't they just do away with one of the at-large bids when the conference meets the autobid criteria membership-wise? The GWFC is one of the top 3 I-AA football conferences, and is only going to get stronger when/if UND joins. Or is it a by-law or something that half of the playoff field must come from autobids and the other half from at-large bids?

You pretty much have it all figured out correctly. The Northeast Conference(NEC) has been limited scholarship for years; sort of like a DI-AA NSIC. For the past few years they have been struggling for respect and an autobid. To raise their competition level, they have upped their scholie limit to 30 this year. Still less than half of DI-AA, and even less than the NCC. Since it was becoming obvious that the NEC and the Pioneer Football League(PFL) were not going to get an at-large bid, much less a autobid, the two conferences agreed to hold a championship game, the Gridiron Classic, between the two conference champions. This will be the first year it's held and the agreement is for a two year span with a renewal option. The kink in the works is that the NEC has done very well against the A-10 this year and the University of San Diego(PFL) is ranked in the top 25. Since a team that plays in any postseason game is ineligible for the NCAA playoffs, people from both conferences are starting to wonder if the Gridiron Classic was such a good idea after all. With the increasing scholarship disparity between the NEC and the PFL and the increasing respect members of the NEC are getting, I'm beginning to doubt whether these first two years of the Gridiron Classic might not be the last.

As far as the second question, your last guess was correct. A minimum of half of the playoff berths must be reserved for at-large bids. As long as the playoff field is set at 16 teams, there will never be more than 8 autobids. I think that holds true for all NCAA tournaments. For the GWFC to recieve an autobid, either the playoff field must be expanded(there is some talk of 24 teams) or an autobid must be stripped. No other options.

Worst case scenario for UND is if NDSU and SDSU get invited into Gateway just as UND and USD join the GWFC. No rivalries and 5 members could look mighty ugly. I have no idea which way things will go, but it is a possibility.

[The Sicatoka]

One last thing, Your going to be asking for a lot of help and favors. A lot of college presidents are going to resent your position, especially if you are trying to join a conference where other schools have changed, or are in other ways associated with schools that did.

Why "resent (UND's) position"? Because UND has a domed football field and The Ralph? Because UND dared challenge a decree from an NCAA committee that had no power to make such a decree? Because UND held firm when it was obvious to even casual observers that UND wasn't getting the same treatment at FSU, CMU, and Utah?

There is also going to be resentment for wasting NCAA resources.

UND didn't start the matter. Let's go to the source: The NCAA Executive Committee. There's where you look for the start of "wasting NCAA resources."

Whatever the outcome, the failure has been an inability to strike an accord with The Tribes.

Spirit Lake Resolution A05-01-041. That's "nearest namesake tribe" support. It was all CMU needed.

UND is working to ensure that NCAA schools maintain the "institutional control" that NCAA Principle 2.1 expressly states. If your question about, "A lot of college presidents are going to resent ..." is appropriate then isn't the question, "Aren't '(a) lot of college presidents are going to resent' an assault on the principle of institutional control" just as appropriate?

Having a proven history of standing up for retaining institutional control will win favor with many university presidents (because we know they like their power and don't cede any away gently).

Frankly, would you want to be in a conference with presidents that respect the principle of institutional control or a conference full of presidents who want rule by NCAA executive fiat (e.g. Roy Saigo)?

[PCM]

I also think your going to have trouble unless the naming issue is settled. I don't know how it will come out, but the WCHA even talked about the appropriateness of your membership, but I think grandfathered it. Since they are here they are in.

You think, but you don't know. The support for UND keeping the Fighting Sioux nickname is very strong throughout the WCHA, as well as the college hockey world. The one school that's been vocal in its opposition is SCSU. Even with Roy Saigo as president, that university never took an official position on the issue.

[The Sicatoka]

You think, but you don't know. The support for UND keeping the Fighting Sioux nickname is very strong throughout the WCHA, as well as the college hockey world. The one school that's been vocal in its opposition is SCSU. Even with Roy Saigo as president, that university never took an official position on the issue.

One more note: Isn't Wisconsin, "model university", with a won't play Indian monikers non-conference policy, playing FSU (non-conference) in hoop this year. Hypocrits?

[PCM]

One more note: Isn't Wisconsin, "model university", with a won't play Indian monikers non-conference policy, playing FSU (non-conference) in hoop this year. Hypocrits?

You mean the same NCAA "model institution" that recently received an "F" from the Black Coaches Association for its minority hiring practices?

[Holdem]

I didn

[PCM]

I didn

[The Sicatoka]

The Great Land grants ...

What do Clemson and Auburn have to do with this?