Facilities Master Plan

[the green team]

Don't get me wrong, I love both designs. The dome with the retractable roof would be absolutely amazing if we can score it. My main concern is that a dome would cost at least twice what an outdoor stadium would and could possible hinder future expansions as UND grows. The only problems I have with the Alerus is that it's too far from campus and was not built with the possibility of growth. These are huge oversights by the good people of Grand Forks and gave a $100 million dollar facility a short life expectancy. We have to learn from the Alerus's mistakes and make sure we have build a stadium that can grow with the university.

That "too far from campus" argument really grates on me. As I have actually done this because I was curious. The walk to The Ralph as opposed to the walk to the Alerus from Wilkerson was only 5 minutes and change shorter of a walk. Really? It's that big of deal? You've got to be kidding me. Honestly, if the students choose not to use the shuttles and walk, it really is not that bad of a walk. I've seen longer "tradition walks" where teams walk through the crowd on their way to the arena at big institutions(slight exageration-used for effect) Secondly, there is a student portion of parking now, at the Alerus. What more do the students want. They didn't come very often when we were at Memorial, except for an occasional Bison game. The reality is our student body in many ways is very lethargic when it comes to effectively supporting anything. Just calling it like I see it. The Alerus being too far away is such a copout argument by the student body who for most of those that live in the dorms- live within shouting distance of Wilkerson. They can make it. They just choose not to.

[goyotes]

That "too far from campus" argument really grates on me. As I have actually done this because I was curious. The walk to The Ralph as opposed to the walk to the Alerus from Wilkerson was only 5 minutes and change shorter of a walk. Really? It's that big of deal? You've got to be kidding me. Honestly, if the students choose not to use the shuttles and walk, it really is not that bad of a walk. I've seen longer "tradition walks" where teams walk through the crowd on their way to the arena at big institutions(slight exageration-used for effect) Secondly, there is a student portion of parking now, at the Alerus. What more do the students want. They didn't come very often when we were at Memorial, except for an occasional Bison game. The reality is our student body in many ways is very lethargic when it comes to effectively supporting anything. Just calling it like I see it. The Alerus being too far away is such a copout argument by the student body who for most of those that live in the dorms- live within shouting distance of Wilkerson. They can make it. They just choose not to.

I have seen similar comments about lack of student attendance on the USD board. Have also seen similar comments on both SDSU & NDSU boards. Somehow, need to make the games an event that students want to attend. Student fees already pay for the tickets, so not like it is any additional money out of pocket to attend the games. Likely, too many other entertainment options for the students.

[MplsBison]

Why not? That's what the school to the south said and did just a few years ago I thought?

NDSU tried to sell more tickets using DI as the carrot - sure. But they didn't imply that the reason people should care about DI is because it means better football talent. They just said "you should care about DI....because it's DI .... and DI must be better than DII".

[MplsBison]

I don't know man, a lot of people in the GF area are stubborn fair weather fans that are used to playoffs every year so what you are saying isn't entirely true; though you do have a good point point. I think that once the team is consistently putting a better product on the field against real teams (which I believe is happening) more and more people will slowly and steadily come to the games.

Technically, I think that proves my point. The reason I say technically is because it depends on what you mean by "putting a better product on the field".

When I was replying to Matt, it was understood that we were talking about an improved level of football talent. In other words, "putting a better product on the field" means you're literally putting two teams made up of more talented players on the field for people to watch. This is when I come with the argument that the relative talent level is basically irrelevant. Most people can't tell the difference in person at full speed unless one team is severely less talented than the other.

However, when you say it above I take "putting a better product on the field" to mean winning more games. In the case, then yes I do agree with you - winning will result in higher ticket sales, because ultimately it results in the game being a more exciting event.

I'm over using the word exciting, don't take it literally. What I'm really getting at is the psychology of the potential ticket buyer. There has to be some motivation to pay for a ticket.

[IrishSiouxFan]

That "too far from campus" argument really grates on me. As I have actually done this because I was curious. The walk to The Ralph as opposed to the walk to the Alerus from Wilkerson was only 5 minutes and change shorter of a walk. Really? It's that big of deal? You've got to be kidding me. Honestly, if the students choose not to use the shuttles and walk, it really is not that bad of a walk. I've seen longer "tradition walks" where teams walk through the crowd on their way to the arena at big institutions(slight exageration-used for effect) Secondly, there is a student portion of parking now, at the Alerus. What more do the students want. They didn't come very often when we were at Memorial, except for an occasional Bison game. The reality is our student body in many ways is very lethargic when it comes to effectively supporting anything. Just calling it like I see it. The Alerus being too far away is such a copout argument by the student body who for most of those that live in the dorms- live within shouting distance of Wilkerson. They can make it. They just choose not to.

First off, I live in the apartments on campus and I walk to both Hockey and football games. The Alerus is much further away than an additional 5 minutes as you claim, but it's not far enough away to deter students as they have shuttle transportation options. Originally when I was speaking about the downside of the Alerus not being closer to campus it was in reference to creating a true college football game day environment. If we had a nice stadium on campus (where the memorial field is now) we would have one of the best game day atmospheres in the country. Just imagine all the tailgaters out in the parking lot as well as everyone celebrating outside of greek row and having barbecues across the street in the park. This type of atmosphere is more conducive to encouraging alumni to making donations to the institution. Personally, the Alerus is an okay facility that could have been a lot better if there was better vision behind its construction. Football belongs on campus, let's bring it back and soon!

[MplsBison]

Good for NDSU - would that be for the basketball practice lean-to, the new weight area, or the actual BSA BB court?

There's not really going to be a new BB court. That's why that portion of the updates costs the least. The actual court itself will be the same and the arena will be the same size. All they're going to do is replace the folding bench seats on the east side and lower west side with permanent, green&gold chairbacks, replace the old chairbacks on the upper west side with new green&gold chairbacks and possible permanent green&gold chairbacks on both ends of the court. Almost might upgrade the concessions and restrooms, can't recall.

That's the first thing they ought to update - it will get the most visibility, be the nicest for the fans and be the quickest/cheapest of the updates to complete.

So naturally it will be the last thing they do - count on that.

[MplsBison]

First off, I live in the apartments on campus and I walk to both Hockey and football games. The Alerus is much further away than an additional 5 minutes as you claim, but it's not far enough away to deter students as they have shuttle transportation options. Originally when I was speaking about the downside of the Alerus not being closer to campus it was in reference to creating a true college football game day environment. If we had a nice stadium on campus (where the memorial field is now) we would have one of the best game day atmospheres in the country. Just imagine all the tailgaters out in the parking lot as well as everyone celebrating outside of greek row and having barbecues across the street in the park. This type of atmosphere is more conducive to encouraging alumni to making donations to the institution. Personally, the Alerus is an okay facility that could have been a lot better if there was better vision behind its construction. Football belongs on campus, let's bring it back and soon!

Google maps says it's 0.7 miles from Wilkerson to the REA, 0.7 miles to Memorial and 1.3 miles to Alerus.

To me the Alerus looks to have a perfect set-up for tailgating. Lots of parking lots all around the stadium, the same concept that the Vikings want to build in Arden Hills - parking and tailgating right at the stadium. On the other hand, where would people park and tailgate at Memorial? Just looking at google maps - there really don't seem to be many options right next to the stadium. I see lots to the northwest, which is now a parking ramp correct?, a lot to the north - which is slated to become another parking ramp and a track/soccer stadium, a lot to the east - which is slated to become the indoor practice facility, and a practice field to the south which is going to stay the same.

I don't know if the practice field is going to get turf, but either way I'm sure they're not going to want people tailgating on that.

Doesn't seem like Alerus is really that bad of a location.

[Matt]

Technically, I think that proves my point. The reason I say technically is because it depends on what you mean by "putting a better product on the field".

When I was replying to Matt, it was understood that we were talking about an improved level of football talent. In other words, "putting a better product on the field" means you're literally putting two teams made up of more talented players on the field for people to watch. This is when I come with the argument that the relative talent level is basically irrelevant. Most people can't tell the difference in person at full speed unless one team is severely less talented than the other.

However, when you say it above I take "putting a better product on the field" to mean winning more games. In the case, then yes I do agree with you - winning will result in higher ticket sales, because ultimately it results in the game being a more exciting event.

I'm over using the word exciting, don't take it literally. What I'm really getting at is the psychology of the potential ticket buyer. There has to be some motivation to pay for a ticket.

I was talking about winning.

[Cratter]

It redirects to HERE.

Down the road... pull out the track, shift the field closer to the Memorial Grandstand, build an identical Memorial Grandstand on the east side between the moved field and the IDP with a row or two of suites on the top. When needed, enclose the south endzone with steel bleachers to create a 20-25,000 horseshoe.

Really crazy idea. When the new parking ramp is built, throw some suites/lounges/viewing decks on the top level that look into the new Memorial Horseshoe.

With a hotel of course for people to watch the games from their rooms.

[darell1976]

According to that pic Memorial Stadium is shown as is now. I thought they were going to "move" the stadium into a east-west horseshoe shaped stadium but I don't think there would be room with the IPF next door. Am I missing something?

[The Sicatoka]

According to that pic Memorial Stadium is shown as is now. I thought they were going to "move" the stadium into a east-west horseshoe shaped stadium but I don't think there would be room with the IPF next door. Am I missing something?

Uh, yes ...

That image is from iconarchitects.com, which came after the jlgarchitects master plan. There was a blog post on grandforkslife.com where the architect said that the horseshoe wasn't going to be built. They were planning for the stadium with the retractable roof, but it was still a long ways out.

I'd guess it'll look more like:

As that indoor training facility rending and the full site image fits on this site plan:

[IrishSiouxFan]

Google maps says it's 0.7 miles from Wilkerson to the REA, 0.7 miles to Memorial and 1.3 miles to Alerus.

To me the Alerus looks to have a perfect set-up for tailgating. Lots of parking lots all around the stadium, the same concept that the Vikings want to build in Arden Hills - parking and tailgating right at the stadium. On the other hand, where would people park and tailgate at Memorial? Just looking at google maps - there really don't seem to be many options right next to the stadium. I see lots to the northwest, which is now a parking ramp correct?, a lot to the north - which is slated to become another parking ramp and a track/soccer stadium, a lot to the east - which is slated to become the indoor practice facility, and a practice field to the south which is going to stay the same.

I don't know if the practice field is going to get turf, but either way I'm sure they're not going to want people tailgating on that.

Doesn't seem like Alerus is really that bad of a location.

Did Google Maps tell you that you have to cross a busy rail road track and an even busier intersection to get there? Did Google Maps show the multiple parking lots on campus near where the stadium is now (not to mention the huge parking garage we built a few years back right across the street)? The Alerus just doesn't feel like it's truly apart of UND, it's just something we rent out during football season (because it is). We need something that we can build a history and tradition behind, something we can pass down to future generations and in my opinion the Alerus is not it and never will be.

[IrishSiouxFan]

Uh, yes ...

I'd guess it'll look more like:

As that indoor training facility rending and the full site image fits on this site plan:

I love the way the dome and IPF compliment each other, they wouyld be a very attractive addition to campus. My only fear is that although 25,000 seats may sound like a huge amount now, we in all likelihood will need more than that say 10-20 years down the road. I wonder if it can expand seating without compromising the quality of seating?

[star2city]

So if the IPF begins construction, what's the next athletic facility need?

There's been talk about an addition to the UND Wellness Center for swimming (Olympic pool, diving pool, smaller lap pool).

Tennis should be set with the Grand Forks Wellness Center.

Baseball has needs, but barring a domed stadium for baseball, Hyslop would basically be theirs to share with the golf and softball teams.

A retractable stadium can be talked about, but wouldn't be a reality without a donation well in excess of the Engelstad's.

A new outdoor track/soccer field and parking ramp north of Memorial wouldn't be needed unless a new campus stadium becomes a reality.

IMHO, the real need is a basketball arena that has video capability, club seating, suites, and possibly with ice so it can be used for smaller and more intimate crowds that women's hockey bring. Club seating, suites, video capability (think advertising), and concourses with decent concessions - not general tickets sold - are the bread and butter of basketball revenue for mid-major schools. The Betty offers none of that - it's a very nice gym but it's definitely not an entertainment destination. To sustain basketball programs, a 5-6000 seat arena, with amenities that bring in the bigger bucks, is needed. A size about like the Scheels Arena that is designed primarily for basketball but can be converted to hockey. As stated before, the Ralph offers almost no weekend dates between men's and women's hockey, and moreover, is needed for practice for almost every day. The Ralph's lower bowl simply isn't available for many times. The Alerus offers suites, but those suites have no value for basketball.

The Betty was designed to be a basketball practice facility and is a very nice facility for that purpose and for volleyball - but there is no way a Betty can support basketball programs that will soon need $200,000 coaches salaries just to keep somebody semi-capable around.

The flexibility of a true secondary arena would make the REA even grander (and a much larger money generator for UND athletics). ND HS school tournaments, World Jr championships, a Chicago-showcase type event, multiple-event weekends with alternating times could all be hosted with ease. Just need a $30 million donor for this one.

[bincitysioux]

First off, I live in the apartments on campus and I walk to both Hockey and football games. The Alerus is much further away than an additional 5 minutes as you claim, but it's not far enough away to deter students as they have shuttle transportation options. Originally when I was speaking about the downside of the Alerus not being closer to campus it was in reference to creating a true college football game day environment. If we had a nice stadium on campus (where the memorial field is now) we would have one of the best game day atmospheres in the country. Just imagine all the tailgaters out in the parking lot as well as everyone celebrating outside of greek row and having barbecues across the street in the park. This type of atmosphere is more conducive to encouraging alumni to making donations to the institution. Personally, the Alerus is an okay facility that could have been a lot better if there was better vision behind its construction. Football belongs on campus, let's bring it back and soon!

If you live in the apartments on campus, then that means you personally are even closer to the Alerus than someone from Wilkerson in the green teams example.....................

Also, most of the campus expansion seems to be trending west and south.................toward the Alerus.

To me the Alerus looks to have a perfect set-up for tailgating. Lots of parking lots all around the stadium, the same concept that the Vikings want to build in Arden Hills - parking and tailgating right at the stadium. On the other hand, where would people park and tailgate at Memorial? Just looking at google maps - there really don't seem to be many options right next to the stadium. I see lots to the northwest, which is now a parking ramp correct?, a lot to the north - which is slated to become another parking ramp and a track/soccer stadium, a lot to the east - which is slated to become the indoor practice facility, and a practice field to the south which is going to stay the same.

I don't know if the practice field is going to get turf, but either way I'm sure they're not going to want people tailgating on that.

Doesn't seem like Alerus is really that bad of a location.

The Alerus is a great location......................for all of the reasons you mentioned among others.

Did Google Maps tell you that you have to cross a busy rail road track and an even busier intersection to get there? Did Google Maps show the multiple parking lots on campus near where the stadium is now (not to mention the huge parking garage we built a few years back right across the street)? The Alerus just doesn't feel like it's truly apart of UND, it's just something we rent out during football season (because it is). We need something that we can build a history and tradition behind, something we can pass down to future generations and in my opinion the Alerus is not it and never will be.

The railroad track is not that busy. I went to UND for 4 years and probably waited 4 times for a train.

Those parking lots you speak of are gradually being widdled away and have been for years. If the current ramp and a potential future one are your solution, then you discount the value of tailgating at college football games. Who wants to tailgate in a ramp? Parking is a major problem at REA, and it would be even worse at football games if they were held at the current site of Memorial.

I love the way the dome and IPF compliment each other, they wouyld be a very attractive addition to campus. My only fear is that although 25,000 seats may sound like a huge amount now, we in all likelihood will need more than that say 10-20 years down the road. I wonder if it can expand seating without compromising the quality of seating?

Perhaps I am pessimistic, but I don't see demand for seats at a North Dakota football game getting to the point where we will need 25,000 seats in order to accomodate everyone that has a desire to attend a game within the next 10-20 years. What is the possible basis for assuming that attendance could triple in the next 20 years when it has basically stayed the same for the past 20 years? Especially when the past 20 years has included unprecedented success within the 100+ year old program including a national title, two national title game appearances, and brand spanking new stadium, and a move to Division I............................

[IrishSiouxFan]

If you live in the apartments on campus, then that means you personally are even closer to the Alerus than someone from Wilkerson in the green teams example.....................

Also, most of the campus expansion seems to be trending west and south.................toward the Alerus.

The Alerus is a great location......................for all of the reasons you mentioned among others.

The railroad track is not that busy. I went to UND for 4 years and probably waited 4 times for a train.

Those parking lots you speak of are gradually being widdled away and have been for years. If the current ramp and a potential future one are your solution, then you discount the value of tailgating at college football games. Who wants to tailgate in a ramp? Parking is a major problem at REA, and it would be even worse at football games if they were held at the current site of Memorial.

Perhaps I am pessimistic, but I don't see demand for seats at a North Dakota football game getting to the point where we will need 25,000 seats in order to accomodate everyone that has a desire to attend a game within the next 10-20 years. What is the possible basis for assuming that attendance could triple in the next 20 years when it has basically stayed the same for the past 20 years? Especially when the past 20 years has included unprecedented success within the 100+ year old program including a national title, two national title game appearances, and brand spanking new stadium, and a move to Division I............................

Those are great points, lets dream small like St. Cloud State, it worked out so well for them. Let's stay at the Alerus forever and play FCS football, once everyone else has moved up maybe we can start a new conference with SIoux Falls and South Dakota School of Mines. Maybe if the Alerus was to consult JLG again and figure out a way of doing some major renovation to turn it into a bowl shape with additional seating, but I can't see Grand Forks dropping that kind of money on a renovation for a facility that's not generating any revenue. I have lived in Grand Forks for 5 years now and the train tracks are that busy here, not a day goes bye that I don't get stopped waiting on it to pass, plus I hear the damn thing several times a night as my apartment is right by the train station. They are talking about building an over pass and that would help things greatly, but if that happens it will be after I'm gone.

[bincitysioux]

Those are great points, lets dream small like St. Cloud State, it worked out so well for them. Let's stay at the Alerus forever and play FCS football, once everyone else has moved up maybe we can start a new conference with SIoux Falls and South Dakota School of Mines.

I am all for having big aspirations, but am also for being realistic. As I said football attendance has been holding steady for two decades despite some big acheivements by the program. The prior facility wasn't full consistently when we moved to the Alerus, and the Alerus has not been consistently full since moving there. I have little desire to attend outdoor games in a 20,000 seat stadium with only 9,000 fans there.

Yes, the Ralph is full all of the time, and it probably could have been larger. But the old Ralph was full all the time too.

[darell1976]

I am all for having big aspirations, but am also for being realistic. As I said football attendance has been holding steady for two decades despite some big acheivements by the program. The prior facility wasn't full consistently when we moved to the Alerus, and the Alerus has not been consistently full since moving there. I have little desire to attend outdoor games in a 20,000 seat stadium with only 9,000 fans there.

Yes, the Ralph is full all of the time, and it probably could have been larger. But the old Ralph was full all the time too.

Why? I don't get why only 9,000 would show up. Take Green Bay for example. Horrible team in the 70's and 80's. Basically the pre Favre/Rodgers days. They still packed Lambeau in all kinds of conditions and IMO our weather is worse than theirs and they play in December and January where we don't. I think if UND is at the top of the Big Sky and the FCS people will come whether we are in a dome or outside. Weather should not be a factor unless it is a total whiteout or -90.

[darell1976]

I am all for having big aspirations, but am also for being realistic. As I said football attendance has been holding steady for two decades despite some big acheivements by the program. The prior facility wasn't full consistently when we moved to the Alerus, and the Alerus has not been consistently full since moving there. I have little desire to attend outdoor games in a 20,000 seat stadium with only 9,000 fans there.

Yes, the Ralph is full all of the time, and it probably could have been larger. But the old Ralph was full all the time too.

No it wasn't. I remember seeing a lot of green and white seats during the Gino era between championships of 82 and 87 and then between 87 and 97. The new REA its hard to get a seat but the old one you go to the ticket booth and you can get seats right in the first row behind the glass next to the goalie. The only time it was hard to get a seat was when the Gophers were in town.

[bincitysioux]

Why? I don't get why only 9,000 would show up. Take Green Bay for example. Horrible team in the 70's and 80's. Basically the pre Favre/Rodgers days. They still packed Lambeau in all kinds of conditions and IMO our weather is worse than theirs and they play in December and January where we don't. I think if UND is at the top of the Big Sky and the FCS people will come whether we are in a dome or outside. Weather should not be a factor unless it is a total whiteout or -90.

Not so much because of weather. Because a half full outdoor stadium is a horrible atmosphere. Same reason I hated it when the basketball teams used to play in REA, because there were more empty chairs than filled ones (except for NDSU).

I agree that if UND is on top of the Big Sky, interest and attendance will climb. If we were on top of the Great West it would climb. Attendance was bettter when we were on top of the NCC. But even when we were winning a a national title and were a perennial favorite to win a national title, it was never hard to get a ticket to a football game.

You can't compare football in Green Bay to football in Grand Forks. But you could compare it to hockey in Grand Forks..........

[bincitysioux]

No it wasn't. I remember seeing a lot of green and white seats during the Gino era between championships of 82 and 87 and then between 87 and 97. The new REA its hard to get a seat but the old one you go to the ticket booth and you can get seats right in the first row behind the glass next to the goalie. The only time it was hard to get a seat was when the Gophers were in town.

I'll defer to you on that then...............it was generally packed when I went to school from '96 to '00.

[darell1976]

I'll defer to you on that then...............it was generally packed when I went to school from '96 to '00.

I think when Blais took over for Gino the fans piled in but Gino's teams were average at best except in their championship years. I remember going to a Sioux-Gophers game where UND got smoked like 9-0 it was bad.

[Bison Dan]

Not so much because of weather. Because a half full outdoor stadium is a horrible atmosphere. Same reason I hated it when the basketball teams used to play in REA, because there were more empty chairs than filled ones (except for NDSU).

I agree that if UND is on top of the Big Sky, interest and attendance will climb. If we were on top of the Great West it would climb. Attendance was bettter when we were on top of the NCC. But even when we were winning a a national title and were a perennial favorite to win a national title, it was never hard to get a ticket to a football game.

You can't compare football in Green Bay to football in Grand Forks. But you could compare it to hockey in Grand Forks..........

A perennial favorite to win a NC?? Come on you had some good teams but you were never a perennial favorite to win a NC. You could maybe say that about the Bison in the 80's. (which they did)

[IrishSiouxFan]

A perennial favorite to win a NC?? Come on you had some good teams but you were never a perennial favorite to win a NC. You could maybe say that about the Bison in the 80's. (which they did)

Hey that's awesome, I love reading posts about NDSU! I heard there's an entire message board dedicated to athletics at the worst school in America, it's called Bisonville. You should check it out!

[MplsBison]

Those are great points, lets dream small like St. Cloud State, it worked out so well for them. Let's stay at the Alerus forever and play FCS football, once everyone else has moved up maybe we can start a new conference with SIoux Falls and South Dakota School of Mines. Maybe if the Alerus was to consult JLG again and figure out a way of doing some major renovation to turn it into a bowl shape with additional seating, but I can't see Grand Forks dropping that kind of money on a renovation for a facility that's not generating any revenue. I have lived in Grand Forks for 5 years now and the train tracks are that busy here, not a day goes bye that I don't get stopped waiting on it to pass, plus I hear the damn thing several times a night as my apartment is right by the train station. They are talking about building an over pass and that would help things greatly, but if that happens it will be after I'm gone.

Regardless, you will have to admit that the Alerus site has ample parking and tailgating right at the stadium.

No such opportunity exists for the Memorial site.