DI Task Force Report

[Bison Dan]

GOOD LORD! HUGE MISTAKE ON MY PART! Since the report kept referring to UND having a $10 million budget, I assumed that they were using that figure to compare to the average DI-AA budget, but I think they were using the $6.9 million figure as their benchmark. That's not nearly as dubious as I thought.

While NDSU's method for making an estimate is much better (they had the coaches prepare DI budgets), UND's method is OK as far as it goes - but it does include a bunch of low-scholarship football schools in the pool, ignores the huge effect that hockey has on UND's athletic budget, and also assumes that UND is willing to go from being the biggest fish left in DII to a small fry in DI and only a middling-sized fish in DI-AA.

While no excuse for my screw up, the $1 million per year estimate is very low and UND should be a little more up front about the true cost of going DI as well as what their actual budget is. Among all those newspaper stories about this issue, every one listed $1 million as the cost except the one in which Buning, to his credit, was gave a good-faith estimate of $2-3 million (which is the true cost of going DI and having a fully-funded football team).

BTW, UND's athletic budget *is* 6.9 million including hockey - not $10 million or $17 million. Football takes up 1.6 million of that; BB needs $800k, and all other sports (including hockey) take up $4 million. That's directly from the report's supporting documents.

You really have to dig to find the one-time expenses. You have to compare Exhibit 19C to 19D... er, ok, so maybe that's not that much digging. The one-time charges are for:

1. $2 million in for "Contract Services", 90% on the men's side. That's a huge number - it's $1 million more than the average DI-A program pays.

2. $600k on "Sports Camps" - no idea. Double what the average DI-A program pays - and it's all a one-time deal.

3. $500k in a one-time bump to men's coaching salaries. All I can think of is that maybe UND had to pay the salary of two hockey coaches for 2005. Still, that seems extreme.

That's really kind of interesting. At first I thought contract services might have something to do with coach's contracts, but I'm kind of thinking it has something to one-time facility rentals. Maybe it has to do with hosting part of the NCAA hockey tournament.

If I was a sioux fan either pro DI or not I'd still like a in-depth report on the financial condition of the athletic department. How it's setup with the REA, what the costs are, etc ,etc. Does anyone really know the actual setup and cost? Doesn't sound like it. The one thing NDSU doesn't have hunging around it's neck unlike UND has, is the womens hockey team. That's a real financial drain that's not really factored in and it's year in and year out.

[4siouxnow]

Am I crazy or does it seem as if alot of the bison all of a sudden seem to have this strong oppinon that a move to D1 would be a horrible mistake and are sure about it for UND.

Just a thought maybe they loke not getting beat by UND, and now have an excuse, if the move to D1 was done then there would be no reason not to play.

[CDog]

Am I crazy or does it seem as if alot of the bison all of a sudden seem to have this strong oppinon that a move to D1 would be a horrible mistake and are sure about it for UND.

Just a thought maybe they loke not getting beat by UND, and now have an excuse, if the move to D1 was done then there would be no reason not to play.

You might be crazy. But then again, I don't know you. You're right though. The bison faithful all of a sudden have a lot of interest in the inner-workings of the Fighting Sioux Athletic Dept.

[Bison Dan]

You might be crazy. But then again, I don't know you. You're right though. The bison faithful all of a sudden have a lot of interest in the inner-workings of the Fighting Sioux Athletic Dept.

Why not after all the sh*t that came from up north after NDSU made the move.

[aff]

Hey I've got a great idea, if we mock people asking legitimite questions about our finances, those problems will stop existing!!!!! Isn't that a great idea.

I challenge anybody to explain the logic in going D-I with a $700,000 debt. Woden, break it down real simple for me. I'm just an idiot that can't understand why buying something bigger is a good idea when you're already in debt.

[The Sicatoka]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't NDSU's athletic budget "red" when they announced a DI move?

Red is red, in debt is in debt, right?

[MplsBison]

Who cares?

The Great West needs another member and we'd be damn pleased to have your aboard (not to mention the Nickel game $$$$$$$).

[Shawn-O]

Hey I've got a great idea, if we mock people asking legitimite questions about our finances, those problems will stop existing!!!!! Isn't that a great idea.

I challenge anybody to explain the logic in going D-I with a $700,000 debt. Woden, break it down real simple for me. I'm just an idiot that can't understand why buying something bigger is a good idea when you're already in debt.

This just in. Mid-major D-I athletics is not profitable. It's a breakeven enterprise at best, and that's after getting established. If you want to make a business case out of it, I challenge anyone to look at the finances of NDSU, SDSU, Northern Colorado, the list goes on and on, and find where the financials made any business sense for the first three to five years. It's about MARKETING AND P.R! Athletics is a cost center....the question is how to best spend those dollars in the best interest of the university.

[Woden]

Hey I've got a great idea, if we mock people asking legitimite questions about our finances, those problems will stop existing!!!!! Isn't that a great idea.

I challenge anybody to explain the logic in going D-I with a $700,000 debt. Woden, break it down real simple for me. I'm just an idiot that can't understand why buying something bigger is a good idea when you're already in debt.

Come on buddy, it ain't that bad. Don't beat yourself up. Calling yourself an idiot won't fix anything. Besides, you need to have more self-confidence than that. Instead of explaining the answer to you, I will do you a favor and let you learn for yourself a little bit and maybe you won't have to call yourself an idiot anymore. Look up what a deficit is, and then look up what debt is. The two are not one in the same and you need to know that. FYI- when Bill Clinton had a surplus, the US was not out of debt. That may help you figure out the difference between the two. But, since you insist you are an idiot, I don't know if you will be able to or not. Good Luck!

[legend334]

Interesing letter to the editor in the GF Herald today from a concerned fan about going D1

VIEWPOINT: DI numbers still don't add up

GRAND FORKS - First, why does UND feel the need to move to Division I when we aren't even winning championships in Division II?

Yes, we have been close, but as the saying goes, "close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades" - and the last time I checked, UND didn't have either of those sports. Our football team has won one, count 'em, one national championship (five years ago, no less) - yet all of the sudden, we are a DII "powerhouse"?

If we put our football team up against teams such as the Texas A&M Longhorns, could UND compete? Probably not. So why is Division I even being discussed for the rest of our teams?

If we're going to move to DI, we need to go all the way. We need to forget Division I-AA for football and put all of our teams on an even playing field.

I also want to know how UND is going to continue supporting DI after it loses all of its fan base.

For example, our men's basketball team. I went to games this year, and the fans seemed to leave after the women's game. This isn't a secret; all people had to do was be there. And obviously, they weren't.

North Dakota State University's stats say it all. According to the NDSU Web site, the university's women's basketball attendance went down from 2,805 in 2003 to 1,927 in 2006, after the move.

Also, for those readers who don't like the fact that we are playing schools such as Jamestown and Mayville, NDSU's men's basketball team played five of these so-called "smaller schools" this year. Their women's basketball team played 3. Even their football team is playing a "smaller school" in the likes of Concordia-St. Paul this coming up season. And how will UND pay for the DI move?

In the Herald story, "UND's AD supports move to Division I," , athletic director Tom Buning says that "It has gotten too expensive to be as good as we are in Division II and to stay there." What does he expect to happen if we move to DI - that it will get cheaper? The traveling costs alone would go up enough to make the move unreasonable at this time.

Finally, all money aside, I say that until our teams - all of them - are winning DII national championships consistently, we need to stay where we are and build our programs - and then and only then, consider it.

Mariah Hager

I agree with that.....there is no money in D1AA for football.....and if were going to go big time....lets go all the way go D1A football....that is where the money is....unfortunately so is the expense....more than 4 grand to get USC here for football!!

[aff]

Come on buddy, it ain't that bad. Don't beat yourself up. Calling yourself an idiot won't fix anything. Besides, you need to have more self-confidence than that. Instead of explaining the answer to you, I will do you a favor and let you learn for yourself a little bit and maybe you won't have to call yourself an idiot anymore. Look up what a deficit is, and then look up what debt is. The two are not one in the same and you need to know that. FYI- when Bill Clinton had a surplus, the US was not out of debt. That may help you figure out the difference between the two. But, since you insist you are an idiot, I don't know if you will be able to or not. Good Luck!

I'm sorry, you are correct, it is a deficit, not a debt. Does it make you feel better that UND will have to add 3-5 million on to that deficit in order to be D-I? Unfortunately, it would have been better for UND if this was a debt. A debt could have been payed off, while a deficit will have to be budgeted. Its tough to balance a budget when you're adding expenses though, isn't it? Its funny, I have yet to hear a single plausible explanation of a very simple question. Here it is:

"Why is UND going D-I when they have a deficit of $700,000 in D-II".

I swear to you, if anybody actually attempts to answer this, I will respect your post, and not absolutely destroy it.

[aff]

This just in. Mid-major D-I athletics is not profitable. It's a breakeven enterprise at best, and that's after getting established. If you want to make a business case out of it, I challenge anyone to look at the finances of NDSU, SDSU, Northern Colorado, the list goes on and on, and find where the financials made any business sense for the first three to five years. It's about MARKETING AND P.R! Athletics is a cost center....the question is how to best spend those dollars in the best interest of the university.

This just in. You're not in mid major D-I athletics, you're in D-II, running a deficit of over a half million dollars. By your own admission D-I mid major athletics isn't profitable. How are you going to break even then?

[The Sicatoka]

What kind of donated "upfront monies" or endowment basis gifts did either of the SUs want as part of their transitions? What'd they actually receive?

[Shawn-O]

This just in. You're not in mid major D-I athletics, you're in D-II, running a deficit of over a half million dollars. By your own admission D-I mid major athletics isn't profitable. How are you going to break even then?

True or False: Increased short-term investment in athletics is in the long-term best interest of the University of North Dakota. Don't think about it too hard, after all you don't have a dog in this fight......

[Shawn-O]

Interesing letter to the editor in the GF Herald today from a concerned fan about going D1

VIEWPOINT: DI numbers still don't add up

GRAND FORKS - First, why does UND feel the need to move to Division I when we aren't even winning championships in Division II?

Yes, we have been close, but as the saying goes, "close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades" - and the last time I checked, UND didn't have either of those sports. Our football team has won one, count 'em, one national championship (five years ago, no less) - yet all of the sudden, we are a DII "powerhouse"?

If we put our football team up against teams such as the Texas A&M Longhorns, could UND compete? Probably not. So why is Division I even being discussed for the rest of our teams?

If we're going to move to DI, we need to go all the way. We need to forget Division I-AA for football and put all of our teams on an even playing field.

I also want to know how UND is going to continue supporting DI after it loses all of its fan base.

For example, our men's basketball team. I went to games this year, and the fans seemed to leave after the women's game. This isn't a secret; all people had to do was be there. And obviously, they weren't.

North Dakota State University's stats say it all. According to the NDSU Web site, the university's women's basketball attendance went down from 2,805 in 2003 to 1,927 in 2006, after the move.

Also, for those readers who don't like the fact that we are playing schools such as Jamestown and Mayville, NDSU's men's basketball team played five of these so-called "smaller schools" this year. Their women's basketball team played 3. Even their football team is playing a "smaller school" in the likes of Concordia-St. Paul this coming up season. And how will UND pay for the DI move?

In the Herald story, "UND's AD supports move to Division I," , athletic director Tom Buning says that "It has gotten too expensive to be as good as we are in Division II and to stay there." What does he expect to happen if we move to DI - that it will get cheaper? The traveling costs alone would go up enough to make the move unreasonable at this time.

Finally, all money aside, I say that until our teams - all of them - are winning DII national championships consistently, we need to stay where we are and build our programs - and then and only then, consider it.

Mariah Hager

I agree with that.....there is no money in D1AA for football.....and if were going to go big time....lets go all the way go D1A football....that is where the money is....unfortunately so is the expense....more than 4 grand to get USC here for football!!

Wow. I guess there just isn't any middle ground is there? Either stay in the NCC, or have a realistic opportunity to square off with Texas in January for the whole bag of marbles. What is the upside to beating up on tomato cans in Division II? Yes, I know we're getting beat up by the said cans in hoops, but with the resources available, that will get fixed.

By the way, where's that UND student-athlete mission statement?

[The Sicatoka]

.... and if were going to go big time....lets go all the way go D1A football....that is where the money is....

Yup. There's just one minor little problem: There's a 15000 per game average attendance requirement to play DI-A football. You'd have to add on to The Alerus Center to hold that many. Then again, other schools have found "creative" ways to duck that.

No, wait, hold on, what's it say here on the first page of the Attachements to the Final Report?

Football Arena

Note: Investigate options to increase seating capacity to include additional suites.

But still, you have to walk before you run.

[DI IN FARGO]

Yup. There's just one minor little problem: There's a 15000 per game average attendance requirement to play DI-A football. You'd have to add on to The Alerus Center to hold that many. Then again, other schools have found "creative" ways to duck that.

No, wait, hold on, what's it say here on the first page of the Attachements to the Final Report?

But still, you have to walk before you run.

I've been following this thread and the other one on Bunning and DI and adding some comments from time to time. I do have to say I agree with aff on the one point of finances. I asked basically the same thing with no answer. I think its interesting how much backpeddling has gone on up North over the last year alone from the original stance most had about NDSU being foolish to go DI. Now all of a sudden in just a few years things have taken a 180 and its absolutely the right thing to do for UND yet not one answer on how to pay for it. Instead those in favor of the move try to divert the discussion with some comment about NDSU or SDSU or anything else but will not answer the question about how will they fund this move when they are already in the red? Well this is beating a dead horse since I expect no reply with any answer except for sarcasm or cynical remark. I will however continue to watch this whole process of spend spend spend and pay for it later, maybe......

[tnt]

I think UND would be perfectly content to stay in DII if the conference was as viable as it was when it was a ten team league. NDSU, Northern Colorado and SDSU really hurt the league and worthy replacements are nowhere to be found. NDSU took the dive leaving a great conference and situation based on the premise that scholarships would be cut, which they haven't as of yet. UND wasn't about to jump into the cold ocean until it was certain that the ship was sinking, which it now unfortunately is, thanks to the fractures inflicted by the aforementioned teams. Can it be saved? Sure, but it will never sail the way the NCC used to, when it was the best conference in DII.

[GeauxSioux]

I'm sorry, you are correct, it is a deficit, not a debt. Does it make you feel better that UND will have to add 3-5 million on to that deficit in order to be D-I? Unfortunately, it would have been better for UND if this was a debt. A debt could have been payed off, while a deficit will have to be budgeted. Its tough to balance a budget when you're adding expenses though, isn't it? Its funny, I have yet to hear a single plausible explanation of a very simple question. Here it is:

"Why is UND going D-I when they have a deficit of $700,000 in D-II".

I swear to you, if anybody actually attempts to answer this, I will respect your post, and not absolutely destroy it.

From January's IAC Meeting

BUDGET: Tom Buning said the Department of Athletics started the year with a projected $700,000 deficit. Cost savings have been achieved through personnel cuts and a 10% across the board reduction in each sport

[Shawn-O]

I've been following this thread and the other one on Bunning and DI and adding some comments from time to time. I do have to say I agree with aff on the one point of finances. I asked basically the same thing with no answer. I think its interesting how much backpeddling has gone on up North over the last year alone from the original stance most had about NDSU being foolish to go DI. Now all of a sudden in just a few years things have taken a 180 and its absolutely the right thing to do for UND yet not one answer on how to pay for it. Instead those in favor of the move try to divert the discussion with some comment about NDSU or SDSU or anything else but will not answer the question about how will they fund this move when they are already in the red? Well this is beating a dead horse since I expect no reply with any answer except for sarcasm or cynical remark. I will however continue to watch this whole process of spend spend spend and pay for it later, maybe......

I agree, DI in Fargo. I applauded Chapman for pulling the trigger. He was right then, and he's still right. (The old threads got zapped, so I can't prove it, but I was on record) A vast majority of university presidents would have gone with 'SU at that point, but Kupchella didn't have the stomach for it for whatever reason. Hell, we should have all gone when Montana and Montana State moved up. I was less vocal about it then....I was only 12 years old, and Gore hadn't invented the internet yet... I've never understood the defeatist attitudes. If they can make this fly in Bozeman and Missoula, we sure as hell can do this in Fargo and GF.

[andtheHomeoftheSIOUX!!]

If they can make this fly in Bozeman and Missoula, we sure as hell can do this in Fargo and GF.

Darn right! Lets makes this work. I have been kind of leery of a D1 move thinking it could hurt the hockey team but when you think about it would the U really want to hurt its biggest asset?

[Shawn-O]

Darn right! Lets makes this work. I have been kind of leery of a D1 move thinking it could hurt the hockey team but when you think about it would the U really want to hurt its biggest asset?

Hockey will be just fine, and we could share in the Frozen Four dough that Minnesota, Wisconsin, Maine, New Hampshire, Denver, (the list goes on and on) are getting. I'm not saying it's big bucks, but it's money we are now leaving on the table.

[andtheHomeoftheSIOUX!!]

Hockey will be just fine, and we could share in the Frozen Four dough that Minnesota, Wisconsin, Maine, New Hampshire, Denver, (the list goes on and on) are getting. I'm not saying it's big bucks, but it's money we are now leaving on the table.

Thanks for the reassurance and also for the information about the "dough" we are missing out on. I was curious about that stuff.

[aff]

True or False: Increased short-term investment in athletics is in the long-term best interest of the University of North Dakota. Don't think about it too hard, after all you don't have a dog in this fight......

Thats not a true or false question, thats a value question. You need to compare the values of money you will be spending as an increased amount vs. the amount of return you will recieve for the university. Its my contention that the amount UND is going to have to increase isn't possible, or isn't worth the money.

You might as well ask True or fasle: Having a Lamborgihini to use to get dates is in your best interest. If you have a spare quarter million it is, but if you have to sell your entire house and take out a loan and not be able to afford groceries, maybe it isn't quite worth it.

I'm sorry to tell you this will be my last post on the subject for about a week. I have a vacation coming up. Good Luck in the next week!

[Shawn-O]

Thats not a true or false question, thats a value question. You need to compare the values of money you will be spending as an increased amount vs. the amount of return you will recieve for the university. Its my contention that the amount UND is going to have to increase isn't possible, or isn't worth the money.

You might as well ask True or fasle: Having a Lamborgihini to use to get dates is in your best interest. If you have a spare quarter million it is, but if you have to sell your entire house and take out a loan and not be able to afford groceries, maybe it isn't quite worth it.

I'm sorry to tell you this will be my last post on the subject for about a week. I have a vacation coming up. Good Luck in the next week!

You're an MBA, right? The value of the future tuition stream of 12 kids sitting in todays kindergarden classes would cover this deficit. That's assuming zero donations post-grad. Enjoy your vacation!