NCAA Ruling

[sioux7>5]

As I student, I don't care if this tarnishes my degree (which it won't because I'm aviation and we're the best aviation school in the world) but I say keep the name. The NCAA had no right to tell us we have to change our logo. So that this doesn't because a crazy long post, I'll skip my opinions on the NCAA, logo, and going to court.

My question is... I heard that because the university does not own the Ralph Engelstad Arena, they cannot remove the logos or alter the building. Does anyone have any more information on this?

That would be the truth...The school leases the building from the family as far as I know. I say we should at lest sue the NCAA for a new building if we lose the Ralph

[WiSioux]

Anyone think that it would be benificial at all to email President Kupchella and letting him know that we are behind him and want to see him fight for the logo?

CKUPCHELLA@MAIL.UND.NODAK.EDU

[sioux7>5]

Anyone think that it would be benificial at all to email President Kupchella and letting him know that we are behind him and want to see him fight for the logo?

CKUPCHELLA@MAIL.UND.NODAK.EDU

Yes I think he needs to know that there are people that support and are willing to voice our support. I will be sending him an email

[sioux7>5]

I really really HATE that some people lump liberalism and PC into one broad generalization when in fact they are two completely different things. It's apples and oranges. PC has nothing to do with being liberal. I'm as liberal as they come. I hate rich greedy fat cat republicans and despise religious zealots, yet I also hate PC zealots. Please don't say this is a liberal thing.

Ok but you have to admit that this is normally a liberal issue. You might not be but come on, you have to be able to see that.

[KEH]

In Ron His Horse is Thunders recent letter to the NCAA he states that he has received copies of dialougue between UND's adminstration and UND's "Sioux Crew" and that UND told Sioux Crew that members of the Standing Rock Tribe were going to be on campus and at the hockey game. Let it be known as I am an active member of Sioux Crew that I was unaware of the visit. There was nothing posted on the Sioux Crew website, no e-mails, and there was nobody telling us how to behave at the hockey game.

[LB#11]

I really really HATE that some people lump liberalism and PC into one broad generalization when in fact they are two completely different things. It's apples and oranges. PC has nothing to do with being liberal. I'm as liberal as they come. I hate rich greedy fat cat republicans and despise religious zealots, yet I also hate PC zealots. Please don't say this is a liberal thing.

There is a lot of rich greedy fat cat liberals as well.

[jimdahl]

I really really HATE that some people lump liberalism and PC into one broad generalization when in fact they are two completely different things. It's apples and oranges. PC has nothing to do with being liberal. I'm as liberal as they come. I hate rich greedy fat cat republicans and despise religious zealots, yet I also hate PC zealots. Please don't say this is a liberal thing.

Thanks Dave. Let's try to avoid the partisan political junk and keep the discussion about the name. If people insist on getting in their political views, then the people on the other side are going to feel obligated to respond and pretty soon the discussion about the Sioux is drowned out...

[gjw007]

I can guaruntee you that there are at least 800 lawyers that work for the NCAA that think your wrong, and are right now preparing to tear your case apart in a court. I don't care how fanatical you are about the fighting sioux name, you need to at least understand what is working against you. ... But I doubt the NCAA was stupid enough to try and force schools into something that can be beat in court as easily as people here seem to think.

The funny thing is, it works against the NCAA as well. The NCAA has lost in court before so it wouldn't be the first time if it happened nor would it be the last. Many times there is a concerted attempt not to get the case into court by various means by the defendent. What is said to the press isn't always the way the case will be handled. The NCAA does have a problem with the Sherman antitrust actions. The interesting aspect of court cases, from what I understand, is that jury trials are much, much more unpredictable than if the verdict is decided by the judge. Either way, this should be interesting to watch. The 800 lb gorilla loses sometimes.

[redwing77]

I do think UND has a very strong case in a lawsuit, but does that mean we will win? No. Nothing is a sure thing in today's courts. What if we get a judge who is sympathetic to the PC crowd?

Nothing is certain. I just hope we hit them hard and fast. IF we lose, we'll figure out what to do then.

[dagies]

also as a student that will be graduating in december, I am becoming concerned with this whole conflict, and how it will look to the outside world. Will my degree lose any value because of this? I dont know but in this matter the students feelings should also be called upon, since it w8ill effect us as well. AFF i do support the nickname, but at this point i'm willing to go for change. It's almost the curse of winning, sometimes you win a battle, but lose so much in the process that at the end more was lost then won.

This will not affect the image of your degree.

[Sioux-cia]

What am I wrong about?

While I'm talking about it, is the NCAA even subject to an anti-trust case? It isn't a buisness, as much as it appears to be.

The NC$$ is subject to an anti-trust case. If they themselves didn't think they were, they would never have settled with NIT to the tune of 56.5 million dollars.

Protests every time you go somewhere.

Freedom of speech goes both ways. If the 6 to 24 persons who have protested to date want to continue to do so, that is their constitutional right.

The measure of a business isn't how many lawyers they hire, but where the money goes. In this case, the money goes back to the members.

The money they pay out for lost lawsuits doesn't come from their own pockets.

I think that if there really are that many people that are offended by the sioux name being used, then it should be changed....

There are more people who are not offended by the Sioux name and logo including Native Americans. What about their rights.

If you're in a war and your outnumbered at a bridge a thousand to one, your going to retreat and use your resources for something else, not sit their and get slaughtered.

This isn't the a battle, this is a war. Wars are littered with those who would rather die than retreat, thereby giving up the rights allotted to them by, in this case, the Constitution of the United States.

I guess you could compare me to a doctor diagnosing a terminally ill patient.

No, you're more like the assassin hired to wipe out the competition. Terminal illness is not the definition of qiving up. But, then again, we're not terminal either.

If I went today and sued you for stealing something from me, I would have a 50-50 chance of winning, even though we've never met?

You're a thief and have a higher chance of being prosecuted than being let go. The NC$$ is stealing our rights of free speech, free trade, freedom to goven ourselves, ergo there is a higher chance of their 'being prosecuted' than going free.

1. You'll Lose

2. You'll waste possibly millions

3. You'll be getting national media attention construed as being a racist institution by liberal media outlets.

We're not going to lose. The money to defend our rights will not be 'wasted'. Surveys have shown that very few believe the use of our name and logo is racist. Those that believe it won't change their minds because a name and logo no longer are used. Again, freedom of speech. I can't defend one side and deny the other.

But I doubt the NCAA was stupid enough to try and force schools into something that can be beat in court as easily as people here seem to think.

Yes, they are.

Kupchella told Fargo's WDAY radio Friday morning. ``We might have to take some steps to consider some way to preserve the history and tradition and yet modify the name somehow.''

I read the University's response to a NC$$ committee recommendation in December and the University's appeal. I have no doubt that this will go to court.

So, sir, these are the things your are wrong about.

[MeanEgirl]

Dear NCAA,

Please remove your heads from your asses.

Signed,

MeanEgirl

PS. Go Tech! And all that jazz.

[Cratter]

I don't want to be negative for you guys here, but I truly don't understand the confidence you have in winning a court case. Like it or not, nobody is forcing you to be in the NCAA. Just because it is the best doesn't mean you have to be a member. NAIA Division I is all the alternative you need. Would it suck? Absolutely. But the amount of sucking won't factor into this decision. Only if there is an alternative. And there is. Heck, nobody has even said you have to be a member of any of these organazations. Technically your teams could be completely independent of any organazation. Yes, it would make scheduling games nearly impossible. But in court that won't matter, only if there is an alternative.

While I'm talking about it, is the NCAA even subject to an anti-trust case? It isn't a buisness, as much as it appears to be. It is a club, or association, which means they can enforce their own rules for members. If you don't like it, you can leave. In any event, I'm absolutely positive that the NCAA studied all possible legal outcomes in detail before this ruling was ever placed. There's a reason that Marquette etc. just changed their names, and didn't attempt to sue the NCAA. They know it would be a waste of time and money. If these schools thought there was even a chance of winning a liable suit against the NCAA, don't you think they would have taken it? Wouldn't the risk of losing time and money be worth the potential of winning millions from the NCAA? If nobody else has sued, I would venture to say that there is hardly any chance of UND winning a case, despite all of the big talk coming from the admin. Your president knows that nothing will ever come out of talk of a law suit, hes just trying to appease all of the alums that are up and arms. Watch and see what happens. I doubt UND can even win an injunction against this.

Speaking of injuctions, would that really be what you want? Having this name thing over UND's head for the next 10 years. Protests every time you go somewhere. All so that you can lose in the end, but have wasted hundreds of thousands of dollars? I know that Kupchella isn't that stupid. He's going to change the name, except feed everyone some stuff about "it still protects the spirit and history of the fighting sioux name".

I'm probably offending a lot of people by saying this, but things really couldn't have worked out better for your president on this. Right now he has alums breathing down his neck about going D-I and about the name. The NCAA is going to force him to change the name, which is going to cost the school big dollars for athletics. Since the school is going to lose money, he now has a convient scape goat for not going D-I (Which he doesn't want to do anyway, but he can't get the pressure off his back, and not have it be his fault). Look where he ended up...

I agree with everything you said. Now is the time to change the name with eventual divisional changes. To me its not worth the fight anymore. UND will most likely lose in court and then what? It's not worth it to me.

Here's what I said 2 years ago...looks to be coming true.

Pressure...mainly from the NCAA. It could easily hinder conference affiliation down the road. Committees coming to the Universitiy to look into the name. The fact that UND may not be able to be awarded future NCAA tourny sites. Just take a look at the controversy surrounding UND and its hosting of the Elite Eight. Also see:

Also just look at the numerous colleges and universities in the past 50 years that have switched monikers because of similar issues. Oklahoma, Stanford, Mankato, Marquette, Miami (Ohio), etc. etc. etc...After awhile one has to ask himself is it a fight worth battling for. Newspapers and sportscasts refusing to use the name "sioux" and being suspended for it, protests after protests.

Believe me I love the name and logo and want it to stand forever, but I don't believe that will happen.

From this discussion.

[Sioux-cia]

I agree with everything you said. Now is the time to change the name with eventual divisional changes. To me its not worth the fight anymore. UND will most likely lose in court and then what? It's not worth it to me.

Here's what I said 2 years ago...looks to be coming true.

From this discussion.

The fat lady ain't singing yet. I'd hold off on the gloating until then.

[bigsioux21]

First off I would like to say that I am orginally from Illinois and ever since I was born I was an Illini fan, it what everyone is in Illinois. I seen the guy in the costume run around at basketball games and found nothing wrong with it. Since coming here to UND i was amazed that there was no "official" mascot to speak of, and that the university, itself, does not condone it only athletics (thats what I've been told).

Itotally pledge all my support to what Cupcake is doing with the situation. Lets go to court a sue the living day lights out of the NCAA!!!! One last thing i was interviewed by WDAZ about it...but i was not put on the air....they got too many comments that the Sioux logo is a bad thing.

GO SIOUX KICK SOME NCAA ASS!!!!!!!!

[andtheHomeoftheSIOUX!!]

I am so mad at the ncaa right now!!!!!

It is not even a logical argument the ncaa is bringing to the table! Just because somebody is offended by a nickname doesn't mean you should be forced to change it! I could be offended by my hometown Minot High School Magicians but I am not and it would be crazy to be offended by it! Heck! there are probably loads of nicknames that somebody could get offended by that were not included in their list!

University of North Dakota Fighting Sioux forever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Go Illini too!!!!!

[PCM]

My Hot Talk blog on the issue.

[Shawn-O]

also as a student that will be graduating in december, I am becoming concerned with this whole conflict, and how it will look to the outside world. Will my degree lose any value because of this? I dont know but in this matter the students feelings should also be called upon, since it w8ill effect us as well. AFF i do support the nickname, but at this point i'm willing to go for change. It's almost the curse of winning, sometimes you win a battle, but lose so much in the process that at the end more was lost then won.

I'm not sure where you stand on the issue, but if you passionately believe that the Fighting Sioux name and logo is something worth taking a stand on (on either side), any organization or hiring manager that would de-value your credentials based on this issue would not a fit for you from a career standpoint. Just follow your moral compass in terms of what you believe is right. You are entering the working world with a degree from one of the best schools in the country.

[bigmrg74]

Dear NCAA,

Please remove your heads from your asses.

Signed,

MeanEgirl

PS. Go Tech! And all that jazz.

The Monster will second what MeanEgirl said. I still want to hear how Fighting Sioux is any different than Fighting Irish. And furthermore, if Brand and his cronies were really serious about removing all Native American imagerary from the NCAA, then they wouldn't have blinked when Florida State started to complain.

[bigmrg74]

Anyone think that it would be benificial at all to email President Kupchella and letting him know that we are behind him and want to see him fight for the logo?

CKUPCHELLA@MAIL.UND.NODAK.EDU

Dear President Kupchella,

While I may be a fan of Grand Valley State University, I still follow UND's sports as they are respected adversaries of my beloved Lakers. I have followed UND's appeals of the NCAA's ruling on the name issue, and I'm dismayed at the NCAA's decision on friday when it appears that you have support coming from not just one, but two Sioux Tribes. I'm sure if Mr... Brand wanted to, he could have found a letter from somebody within the Seminole Nation to point to as being that the Tribe didn't want Florida State to continue to use their name as well. This whole thing just smacks of hypocrisy to me.

I have been to Grand Forks before, to attend the Playoff game between the Sioux and the Lakers in 2004. And while I might have thought the crowd was a little hostile and abusive towards me, I'm pretty sure it didn't have anything to do with my family's lineage to General Custer, but to the fact that I was wearing a blue Grand Valley shirt, face paint and bolts coming out of my neck. I didn't see anything there that would have even implied that UND tries to be systematically hostile and abusive towards Native Americans. Most of the UND fans I've met do not fit the role of bigot that they've been portrayed to be by the NCAA. I've understand that there may have been a few issues and incidents in the past, but I believe that they weren't encouraged by the university at the time and certainly do not reflect the current administrations policy.

In short, because I'm pretty sure by what I've gathered by reading online at message boards like USCHO.com and Siouxsports.com that you have receive hundreds of emails on this subject, I just wanted to send along my support to you on the issue of keeping the name. I look forward to our two universities competing against each other once again in the realm of Division Two, be it for Football or basketball, and I even hope that one day the rivalry may even take place on ice perhaps.

Sincerely, Matt Griewahn Grand Valley State University Class of 2005 AKA, the Monster.

[Sioux-cia]

My Hot Talk blog on the issue.

And that's why, 'you da man', PCM. Well said, bravo.

[Sioux Grandpa]

One last thing i was interviewed by WDAZ about it...but i was not put on the air....they got too many comments that the Sioux logo is a bad thing.

GO SIOUX KICK SOME NCAA ASS!!!!!!!!