The Sicatoka Posted December 9, 2005 Share Posted December 9, 2005 (edited) SiouxMD: Your first "quote" isn't a quote of any UND official. It's the writings of David Dodds, Herald Staff reporter. How much do we trust any reporter (I'm not singling out Dodds in particular, but he gives a simple case study), to get the story correct? Well, let's look at: UND currently competes in NCAA Division II for all sports, except men's and women's hockey. Those teams play at the Division I level. Hockey is the only sport in which schools are allowed to participate in a different division from the rest of their teams. Uh, no. You are allowed to have one mens and one womens team "play up" in a sport other than football or basketball. Common examples: UND mens and womens hockey; UMD mens and womens hockey; Johns Hopkins (DIII) mens lacrosse (DI). PS - The quote from Boyd I interpret to mean: We haven't decided if it's worth the money to hire a consultant (consultants everywhere just cringed) when we got copies of NDSU's and SDSU's reports for free off the 'net. Edited December 9, 2005 by The Sicatoka Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bincitysioux Posted December 10, 2005 Share Posted December 10, 2005 You are allowed to have one mens and one womens team "play up" in a sport other than football or basketball. Common examples: UND mens and womens hockey; UMD mens and womens hockey; Johns Hopkins (DIII) mens lacrosse (DI). Isn't it true that mens and womens hockey are exempt from this loophole and don't count towards the 2 "other sports" being DI? So couldn't a school like UND or Duluth move up two other sports to DI like volleyball and Mens swimming in addition to M & W hockey and actually have 4 sports at DI? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiouxMD Posted December 10, 2005 Share Posted December 10, 2005 Isn't it true that mens and womens hockey are exempt from this loophole and don't count towards the 2 "other sports" being DI? So couldn't a school like UND or Duluth move up two other sports to DI like volleyball and Mens swimming in addition to M & W hockey and actually have 4 sports at DI? Even if true I am not sure that would be a good idea...at least for UND. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bincitysioux Posted December 10, 2005 Share Posted December 10, 2005 Even if true I am not sure that would be a good idea...at least for UND. No, I wasn't suggesting it, I was just wondering if that's how in fact it works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bisonguy Posted December 10, 2005 Share Posted December 10, 2005 Isn't it true that mens and womens hockey are exempt from this loophole and don't count towards the 2 "other sports" being DI? So couldn't a school like UND or Duluth move up two other sports to DI like volleyball and Mens swimming in addition to M & W hockey and actually have 4 sports at DI? Yes, that's correct. From the handy, dandy, 2005-2006 NCAA DI Manual: 20.4.1.2 Divisions II and III Members Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
star2city Posted December 10, 2005 Share Posted December 10, 2005 Isn't it true that mens and womens hockey are exempt from this loophole and don't count towards the 2 "other sports" being DI? So couldn't a school like UND or Duluth move up two other sports to DI like volleyball and Mens swimming in addition to M & W hockey and actually have 4 sports at DI? That is true. Since DII does not offer a championship in hockey, the M&W's DI hockey status does not count against the limit of one men's and one women's sport competing at DI. Half seriously, maybe UND should consider sponsoring DI men’s and women’s Lacrosse using the Alerus - a spring indoor spectator sport might bring in some decent revenue. Understand that the conference Ohio State, Notre Dame, and Denver are in is looking for another Midwestern member. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoggy Posted December 10, 2005 Share Posted December 10, 2005 That is true. Since DII does not offer a championship in hockey, the M&W's DI hockey status does not count against the limit of one men's and one women's sport competing at DI. Half seriously, maybe UND should consider sponsoring DI men Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigGreyAnt41 Posted December 10, 2005 Share Posted December 10, 2005 Half seriously, maybe UND should consider sponsoring DI men Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
star2city Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 I would love that. Although, field lacrosse (outdoor) is played on a soccer field, while indoor lacrosse, is played on a hockey rink (with artificial turf, of course). Not sure what, if any, exceptions are available in the NCAA lacrosse. Syracuse plays outdoor lacrosse in the Carrier dome, so it would seem the Alerus would be acceptable. Since this DI commission has been formed, maybe this is the proper timing to give consideration to offering Lacrosse as a sport. I seem to recall The Sicatoka has advocated adding lacrosse, so the idea has good pedigree!! In men’s Lacrosse, there is only one western/midwestern league: Great Western Lacrosse League Ohio State Notre Dame Butler Denver Air Force Quinnipiac (probably not permanent) add North Dakota --> permanent autobid for the Great Western Lacrosse For the women, the only western conference really needs another team: Mountain Pacific Lacrosse Cal-Berkeley Stanford St. Mary’s Oregon Denver add North Dakota --> permanent autobid for Mountain Pacific Lacrosse Positives: Revenue potential Affiliation with Big 10 / Pac 10 schools Alerus has open dates in spring Proposed practice facility could be used - limited conflict with football Athletes available from Canada/Twin Cities/Denver/Chicago/Seattle with otherwise limited scholarship options Getting walk-ons might not be as difficult as expected - most other lacrosse schools are private with large tuitions or public with high academic requirements Would increase geographic diversity of students UND would be a leader and trendsetter / not a follower - in this region Fast growing sport Northern location not harmful compared with other spring sports like baseball/softball/tennis/golf Generally appeals to hockey fans Tailgate weekends in the spring Negatives: Lack of local familiarity with sport No local athletes Startup costs Recruiting / travel costs Practice facility required before startup Would probably require dropping other spring sports like baseball, golf, or tennis Doesn’t mesh well with Big Sky sports requirements Could be viewed as to trendy / faddish Non-traditional risk Comments? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiouxMD Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 Comments? RE: Lacrosse Maybe we can convince Hakstol and the boys to try field hockey? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoggy Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 Comments? Does Bemidji HS still have lacross? It would be nice if more local HS's had it. I guess the biggest thing is money. Right now we can't afford to be flying another team around the country and it would probably take a while until it's a money maker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sicatoka Posted December 12, 2005 Author Share Posted December 12, 2005 (edited) Like 'star2city' said, a couple programs that are sure "red ink" would have to go before lacrosse could be added. I like baseball and softball, but we either need the NCAA season moved to a warmer part of the calendar in ND (not going to happen) or a dome. "star2city" puts out a solid list of pros and cons (at Post 9, above). We have the field resource already. I just believe that lacrosse has a much better chance of making it at the gate than baseball or softball, in large part due to the climate we live in. Field lacross in the Alerus takes weather off the list of concerns. And another excuse to tailgate is never a bad thing. Edited December 11, 2007 by The Sicatoka Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
govikes27 Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 It would be awesome if UND had lacrosse! A vastly underrated sports IMO. However, even with cutting baseball and/or softball I think it would still be costly considering there aren't many local schools with lacrosse .Right now I'd rather have increase funding going toward a DI move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeauxSioux Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 Isn't lacrosse one of the two sports listed as "the national sport" for Canada? The other, of course, being hockey. That being said, I would think that there would be pool of talent just over the border. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sicatoka Posted December 12, 2005 Author Share Posted December 12, 2005 Isn't lacrosse one of the two sports listed as "the national sport" for Canada? The other, of course, being hockey. That being said, I would think that there would be pool of talent just over the border. Yup, and yup. I don't believe in this climate baseball and softball will ever "gate" enough fans to be self-sufficient (without a domed stadium). I believe lacrosse (in The Al) would stand a better chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
star2city Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 It would be awesome if UND had lacrosse! A vastly underrated sports IMO. However, even with cutting baseball and/or softball I think it would still be costly considering there aren't many local schools with lacrosse .Right now I'd rather have increase funding going toward a DI move. The thought of UND being DI at tennis, golf, softball, and baseball makes me want to shudder - we have a difficult enough time being competitive in DII - with ND's climate, DI in those sports would be a joke. DII conferences in the South are more competitive than DI nothern mid-major teams. It would be a waste of resources to put finances into those sports. If those sports are supported at a DI level, travel and scholarship costs would go up substantially. Without major $'s going into a baseball stadium / softball complex / tennis complex, fielding a DI team in those sports would not reflect well on UND. Why not put those resources into sports that we have a prayer of being competitive in, have existing facilities for, could be reasonably competitive in, and may actually provide revenue? BTW, the scholarship levels for a DI lacrosse team is 12.6 for men's and 12.0 for women's, not much different from baseball / softball. UND Men Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
star2city Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 We have the field resource already. I just believe that lacrosse has a much better chance of making it at the gate than baseball or softball, in large part due to the climate we live in. Field lacross in the Alerus takes weather off the list of concerns. And another excuse to tailgate is never a bad thing. Some interesting stats: partipication in men's lacrosse in growing fast, but because of Title IX issues, few DI men's teams have been added. Growth of NCAA College Lacrosse Growth of Lacrosse Puts a Pinch on College Game While the game grows at the middle school and high school level, however, Division I lacrosse remains stuck on 52 teams. That means more and more high school players are competing for a finite number of college scholarships. "We've got to find a way to get the game to grow at the college level, and I'm not particularly optimistic we can do it," said Virginia Coach Dom Starsia,Because Lacrosse is relatively easy to pick up on, athletic ability, not lacrosse skills, are what's in demand: "Teams like Duke and Navy and Georgetown have athletes on their roster. Were they blue chip lacrosse players in high school? Probably not. They are good athletes who have learned lacrosse. I think it's going to be tougher for the kid who grows up with a lacrosse stick in his hand, who has excellent stickwork but might be a step slow. Before, their stickwork would get them onto a college team. lacrosse is the fastest-growing game in the U.S. at every level. Scan a list of Division I lacrosse All-Americas, men or women, and you'll find that virtually all played several sports in high school. Virginia men's coach Dom Starsia never saw his best defensive midfielder, J.J. Morrissey, play lacrosse before offering him a scholarship; he signed Morrissey based on how he hit the hole as a tailback. Starsia has recruited other athletes who never even played lacrosse before arriving in Charlottesville. "In the U.S. we play enough hand-eye sports that a kid is going to pick up the stickwork," he says. "Basically, I've got a team full of I-AA football guys." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nodakvindy Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 I'm not sure that dropping Tennis makes a lot of sense. It's not that expensive, the GF Tennis Center is a pretty solid facility and there is a pretty decent local recruiting ground. Another sport that would probably be a cheap add is Bowling. If the nickname thing shakes out, it would be kind of cool to see the Ralph host the NCAA finals on those temporary lanes like the PBA uses now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dakotadan Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 I don't see the baseball or softball teams ever really being nationally competative, at the DI or DII levels. I don't usually buy the argument that because of our location our sports are unable to recruit quality athletes, but I will agree that these 2 teams are at a disadvantage. First, UND would need some major facility upgrades. The best option would most likely to be to partner with the city to build these. Second, the university would have to greatly increase it's recruiting budget. Even with this, I still don't see UND really being nationally competative. As far as adding Lacrosse, the idea sounds interesting but I think that there are better options right now. First off, we have a long way to go in getting women's hockey to be self-supporting. We could definately use a more permanent soccer field or look at adding better seating, scoreboard, etc. at the current one. Add on top of this the DI study. I have no idea how seriously they are looking at DI, but if a DI move is possibly in the future, we don't really need to start adding expensive sports. If UND does stay DII and then starts to consider adding sports, I would suggest men's soccer. North Dakota has men's soccer in high school. With already having a women's program, the start up cost should not be that high. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sicatoka Posted December 13, 2005 Author Share Posted December 13, 2005 If UND does stay DII and then starts to consider adding sports, I would suggest men's soccer. North Dakota has men's soccer in high school. With already having a women's program, the start up cost should not be that high. Question: Which has a better chance of "gating" its expenses: soccer or lacrosse? I'm interested, if a sport were added, in adding sports that have a chance at paying their own freight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IowaBison Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 The recent interest on this board in lacrosse is interesting (to put it politely). IMO, if UND is sincerely thinking about making the move to Division I adding sports isn't going to be part of the equation. Making ends meet given Title IX and conference requirements for number and types of sports will be demanding enough. For example (only), the Big Sky membership requires men's tennis (need to add that) and women's tennis and golf (can't drop those). Also the thought that lacrosse or skating or soccer would be revenue generators is pretty optimistic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCM Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 Question: Which has a better chance of "gating" its expenses: soccer or lacrosse? Equestrian! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IowaBison Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 Equestrian, if begun, is actually a pretty smart move by the University. It helps with Title IX and is likely to be a money generator for the University as a whole (though almost certainly a loser for the athletic department). Those horses need to be boarded (for $$$) and the University's Equine Center needs boarders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCM Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 Equestrian, if begun, is actually a pretty smart move by the University. Isn't that what I just said? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiouxMD Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 Equestrian! Two words...four syllables...nine letters. WATER POLO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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