NCAA gives FSU a pass

[MafiaMan]

Nope, I don't see it.  So, I used the X as in "delete" button on the bottom right side of my message.

Oh....there it is!  I didn't have my window set wide enough.  Wider is better.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

YaneA obviously DIDN'T stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

[YaneA]

I thought they touted the fact that the "study" preceding the ruling began 4 years ago. Who are they that it should take them so long to make a ruling dictated, they'd like us to think, by their respect for humanity?? I don't see how they can save face. Now, it's all about the damage control.

[Fedorov]

Now that I am somewhat removed from UND, I feel comfortable breaking my silence. I have worked with a lot of American Indians and it has been part of my training since I was at UND. It has been great to work with American Indians. A good majority of them are so caring and their Native American culture has a lot of advantages, such as the ceremonies used when a death occurs. I went to a classmate's party that is American Indian and her whole family welcomed me and congratulated me on my graduation. They did more than my family would ever do for a guest.

I have heard many stereotypical comments and questions. "I bet you deal with a lot of alcoholics." You know what, it was about the same number of alcoholics and drug abuses that are white veterans of this country. While there were ignorant comments made, the only real racism I saw this year was from American Indians. Yes people, it happens both ways and it isn't right either way. Fortunately there was an American Indian what was willing to stand up and point out what these people were doing. So like everything in life, there are people on both sides of an issue.

I have seen several American Indians wearing Fighting Sioux clothing in several areas of the Dakotas. What kind of protest is that? UND is doing research on schools that have changed their American Indian names. As far as I know, there have not been any findings suggesting that anything negative was occuring with the name used, or anything positive gained when the name changed. So I ask anyone that really wants the Fighting Siouxname gone, what is it about? Explain to me why you want the name changed. Don't even try to claim you are speaking for everyone, because I have firsthand experience that says otherwise. Why does the Sioux name mean something bad in some cases, yet it is proudly used by American Indians in other cases? Also, flip it around and assume that UND will always be the Fighting Sioux. If that is the case, what could UND and the community do to make you proud that UND is the Fighting Sioux? For those American Indians that want to answer, please feel to PM me or reply here.

[MafiaMan]

I've mentioned stuff like this before countless times, Fedorov. Apparently, GrahamKracker and others on the opposite side of this issue feel that American Indians who voice their own opinion and cheer for teams like the Seminoles, Utes, Fighting Sioux, and Indians are sell-outs and uncle toms.

[Sioux-cia]

"The staff review committee noted the unique relationship between the university and the Seminole Tribe of Florida as a significant factor," the NCAA said Tuesday. "The decision of a namesake sovereign tribe, regarding when and how its name and imagery can be used, must be respected even when others may not agree."http://sports.myway.com/news/08232005/v8148.html

According to this, it's going to be difficult for some schools to be taken off the list of shame. The Fighting Illini are not likely to show a 'unique relationship' with a 'sovereign tribe' because the Illini have all died off. The relationship between UND and Spirit Lake, if unchanged, should be good enough accordinh to the last statement of the above quote.

[mksioux]

An interesting quote from the USA Today story.:

Utah is working with the Utes on its appeal.

If that's true, I suspect Utah will be the second school off the list.

It seems abundantly clear to me (not so much with the more optimistic posters) that tribal support is going to be the deciding factor on whether a school gets off the list. With UND - the support of the Spirit Lake tribe seems pretty lukewarm and there is unambiguous opposition from the leadership of the other tribes within the Sioux nation. It's too bad that UND, the athletic department, and the alumni association didn't do a better job fostering a relationship with the local tribes before the activists got to them first and convinced their leadership to be ashamed of the nickname. That may very well end up being UND's fatal mistake in the nickname war.

[Fedorov]

Maybe they are the sellouts. If he/she truly answers like that, then it isn't even worth the time to talk with them. I don't know about other fields of study, but there are no other schools in the area that would integrate the Native American cultures into the academic work. Does that mean UND sold out, or all the other schools sold out?

[YaneA]

The tribal resolutions against the name definitely hurt UND's appeal. I wouldn't pretend otherwise. But, you go to war with the ammunition that you have. PCM wrote an opinion piece on USCHO detailing the case for walking the walk, comparing the opportunities for Native Americans at "hostile and abusive" UND vis a vis those at showcase schools like Iowa and Wisconsin ("we don't play teams with Indian names unless they're a member of the conference").

Actions, not words. Opportunities, not lipservice. That's what separates UND from other institutions, on the list or not.

[U2Bad1]

Sports Illustrated poll.

[ScottM]

The tribal resolutions against the name definitely hurt UND's appeal.  I wouldn't pretend otherwise.  But, you go to war with the ammunition that you have.  PCM wrote an opinion piece on USCHO detailing the case for walking the walk, comparing the opportunities for Native Americans at "hostile and abusive" UND vis a vis those at showcase schools like Iowa and Wisconsin ("we don't play teams with Indian names unless they're a member of the conference"). 

Actions, not words.  Opportunities, not lipservice.  That's what separates UND from other institutions, on the list or not.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Precisely. UND will need to accentuate the positive aspects of its entire set of programs, etc. to offset negative commentary/opposition from others. The original set of appeals guidelines made "approval" a key factor, they also allowed other factors that might allow a more "holistic" approach to the usage of names/logos.

[The Sicatoka]

The NCAA has opened up a rat's nest for themselves, again.

The worst possible offense according to them is "stereotyping via a mascot". They gave FSU, with that very offense, a pass.

[Runninwiththedogs]

[Sioux-cia]

But since the Illini are dead, then there's no one to offend. There's their exemption!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good point!

[mikejm]

Pardon me if I sound defeatist, but I think the FSU "backpedalling" today by Brand & Co. bodes ill for the Fighting Sioux. Because UND cannot hold up a strongly worded resolution from the local Lakota tribes, and because there is apparently a lot of "public" documentation from several tribal bodies specifically opposing the Fighting Sioux name, we'll be wearing generic labels 23-24 March walking into a Ralph with duct taped scars everywhere.

It is tragic, really, that a university that has done so much to further the education of the native population will be forced

[iramurphy]

Pardon me if I sound defeatist, but I think the FSU "backpedalling" today by Brand & Co. bodes ill for the Fighting Sioux. Because UND cannot hold up a strongly worded resolution from the local Lakota tribes, and because there is apparently a lot of "public" documentation from several tribal bodies specifically opposing the Fighting Sioux name, we'll be wearing generic labels 23-24 March walking into a Ralph with duct taped scars everywhere.

It is tragic, really, that a university that has done so much to further the education of the native population will be forced

[mksioux]

Pardon me if I sound defeatist, but I think the FSU "backpedalling" today by Brand & Co. bodes ill for the Fighting Sioux. Because UND cannot hold up a strongly worded resolution from the local Lakota tribes, and because there is apparently a lot of "public" documentation from several tribal bodies specifically opposing the Fighting Sioux name, we'll be wearing generic labels 23-24 March walking into a Ralph with duct taped scars everywhere.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I tend to agree with you, but at least one UND official is encouraged by the news.

[Sioux-cia]

I tend to agree with you, but at least one UND official is encouraged by the news.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hot damn!!! The best news is the continued support from the Spirit Lake Band; that along with the NC$$'s public statement, "The decision of a namesake sovereign tribe, regarding when and how its name and imagery can be used, must be respected even when others may not agree.", gives me hope. Put those together with the programs and services that UND provides for American Indians has to assure us of a waiver.

[U2Bad1]

http://www.standingrock.org/

[PCM]

Pardon me if I sound defeatist, but I think the FSU "backpedalling" today by Brand & Co. bodes ill for the Fighting Sioux.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm not that pessimistic. On Aug. 5, the NCAA said it didn't matter that Florida State had the permission of the Florida Seminoles to use their tribe's name. Today, the NCAA said it did matter. This demonstrates that the NCAA is willing to find exceptions an grant exemptions, something that didn't seem likely on Aug. 5.

Besides that, UND has a very good story to tell. When the NCAA claims that UND's use of the Sioux nickname is "hostile and abusive," the question UND must raise is: Compared to what? When UND is compared to other state universities in the region and even the NCAA's designated "model institutions," it stands head and shoulders above all others in educating American Indians. This is the NCAA's idea of "hostile and abusive?"

Kupchella has been getting a lot of media exposure because of the letter he sent to the NCAA. He's been doing a good job of making the university's case over the national air waves. Trust me. This battle is about public opinion and political pressure, and it's far from over.

As expected, columnists and commentators are already lining up to bash the NCAA for its about-face on FSU. This is what Furman Bisher, a columnist for the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, said about it Tuesday:

The NCAA went quietly. In view of the

[SiouxMeNow]

then there's a serious LEGAL out for UND...think about it...just because FSU is PAYING tribes for their support - does it make it right? They're a big time DI school - who contributes a LOT to the NCAA. UND can go at them purely from an anti-trust standpoint...if its "OKAY" for them...you can't discriminate against other schools who have the same situation - BUT don't quite contribute "the same amount" to their coffers...call it the HYPOCRITE DEFENSE! Either way...the NCAA comes out looking like the jerk in this whole deal...

[BigGame]

  Either way...the NCAA comes out looking like the jerk in this whole deal...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good, because the NCAA is the jerk in this entire situation.

[PCM]

From the Daily Illini:

Editorial: Teachable moment

The National Collegiate Athletics Association's decision to ban the use of the University and 17 other member institution's "hostile or abusive" ethnic origin mascots, nicknames and imagery from any of its postseason events is, as president Myles Brand pointed out in a letter published by USA Today on Aug. 10, indeed a teachable moment. But, unfortunately for the NCAA, it is a moment of carelessness and a warning against hastily and poorly crafted, incomprehensible and inexcusably rash actions.

NCAA policy change unclear

"There will be no immediate change in the traditions and practices of the University at this time," University spokesman Tom Hardy said. "The plan now will be for Chief Illiniwek to continue doing what he's been doing.

"There are aspects of the decision that we feel need clarification. We're reviewing that and looking for answers from the NCAA before determining how we're going to proceed."

[YaneA]

http://seminoles.collegesports.com/trads/f...ds-osceola.html

above link is the story of FSU mascot, Chief Osceola

below link is to Illinois' story about its mascot, Chief Illiniwek:

http://fightingillini.collegesports.com/tr...s-thechief.html

Compare and contrast. How are they alike; how are they different? Discuss.

[dagies]

I tend to agree with you, but at least one UND official is encouraged by the news.

According to school officials, UND already has received confirmation from the Spirit Lake Nation near Devils Lake, N.D., that the tribe is supportive of the school's continued use of the Fighting Sioux nickname.

This gives me a ray of hope, though I am still worried that the NCAA is only trying to wriggle out from under the pressue of the big time schools and will try to save face with the smaller schools. And I'm afraid they will ignore any criticism about not being consistent, as will other supporters of nickname censorship. Why? Because they'll take anything they can get and call it a victory.

[HockeyMom]

My glass is half full. I can't see any of this standing up. It's ridiculous. The NCAA is not going to get away with this.