PCM Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 As this news release demonstrates, the NCAA certainly wasted no time in caving in to the Florida State. Can Illinois be far behind? If the NCAA thought the criticism it received was harsh before, what's going to follow this decision will be even more hostile and abusive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Let'sGoHawks! Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 I don't think UND is big enough for the NCAA to cave. I hope I'm wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MafiaMan Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 By the time this ends, there will be 18 "exemptions" and the NCAA will still crow about sticking to its guns. Good work, NCAA. you continue to make fools of yourselves. Now go do something meaningful and help Cincinnati fire Bob Huggins. Yea, the same Coach Huggins who has yet to graduate a single "student-athlete" in his 14 years of coaching the Bearcats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mksioux Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 This is not surprising in the least. The criteria for the appeal was narrowly-tailored to get FSU off the list. Whatever heat the NCAA takes from the activists for backtracking on FSU is not going to be nearly as hot as the heat they would have taken from FSU, FSU's alumni, FSU's lawyers, and Florida's politicians. My theory is that all non-namesake nicknames (Braves, etc.) will stay on the list and all namesake nicknames with an objecting namesake tribe (like UND) will stay on the list. Only those schools with namesake nicknames with full support from the namesake tribe(s) will get an exemption. I suspect there will not be many more exemptions and UND will not be one of them. I hope I am wrong, but I doubt it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoteauRinkRat Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 My theory is that all non-namesake nicknames (Braves, etc.) will stay on the list and all namesake nicknames with an objecting namesake tribe will stay on the list. Only those schools with namesake nicknames with full support from the namesake tribe(s) will get an exemption. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Ummm.....can you repeat the part of the stuff where you said all about the ummm....thing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCM Posted August 23, 2005 Author Share Posted August 23, 2005 I don't think UND is big enough for the NCAA to cave. I hope I'm wrong. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You're probably right, but that could also work to UND's advantage. I don't see how the NCAA can let FSU off the hook and keep Illinois on its list. How's it going to look when the NCAA gives a pass to the two big-name, big-money universities that also happen to be the biggest contributors to racial stereotyping? The high-minded principles that drove this policy will be exposed for the sham they are. The NCAA will then be forced to decide it if wants to continue to beat up on the smaller schools while, at the same, absorbing hits from the activists who convinced them to take this ill-advised course. I'm obviously no lawyer, but when I look at the NCAA's legal rationale for this policy, I see Swiss cheese. It's a horrible position for the NCAA to be in. Myles Brand will have his "teachable moment," but he'll be the one doing the learning, not the teaching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ESPNInsider Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 mksioux I would agree with you. I would think, unless the other schools can get the backing of the tribes the names will go. Maybe UND should reach out to these tribes and try work with them to get their backing. Or maybe just give up and not put any more money into the fight. That'll be the tough decision facing the leaders now. Then, when they figure that out, they'll be able to relax for about 5 minutes before looking at the DI question. I would not like to be in their shoes at this point! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MafiaMan Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 I'm obviously no lawyer... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> ...but you did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCM Posted August 23, 2005 Author Share Posted August 23, 2005 ...but you did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No, but I did find a diploma in a Cracker Jacks box. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MafiaMan Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 No, but I did find a diploma in a Cracker Jacks box. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> A Cracker Jack box diploma? Why that carries about as much weight as a degree from St Cloud State! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCM Posted August 23, 2005 Author Share Posted August 23, 2005 I would think, unless the other schools can get the backing of the tribes the names will go. Maybe UND should reach out to these tribes and try work with them to get their backing.<{POST_SNAPBACK}> Unfortunately, I think it's too late for that. Any deal UND makes with a tribe at this point will be viewed with great suspicion and be derided either as the university "bullying" the tribe or buying it off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCM Posted August 23, 2005 Author Share Posted August 23, 2005 A Cracker Jack box diploma? Why that carries about as much weight as a degree from St Cloud State! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> But seriously, I bounced my layman's perspective of the NCAA's legal position off someone who is a lawyer and he said my thinking was on the right track. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ESPNInsider Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 Actually, living in Chicago, I've heard little to nothing on the subject in the local media. Funny that when the Illini basketball team was making a run everyone in this city was huge fans. Now you don't hear a peep. (Kind of like how the White Sox are struggling and everyone is starting to fall off the wagon) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCM Posted August 23, 2005 Author Share Posted August 23, 2005 Has anyone heard anything out of Champaign/Urbana? All the noise I've heard has been from Tallahassee... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I haven't seen anything about what Illinois intends to do, but there was this commentary in USA Today from Lawrence C. Eppley, chair of the University of Illinois Board of Trustees. Mr. Brand's commentary missed the point. The likely and ironic consequence of the NCAA's provocative rhetoric will be a giant step backward in the debate, re-engagement of harsh and disingenuous rhetoric, and the loss of common ground to the armies of divisiveness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HockeyMom Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 I think this ruling is great for UND. The NCAA is going to back down to all of the schools. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottM Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 You're probably right, but that could also work to UND's advantage. I don't see how the NCAA can let FSU off the hook and keep Illinois on its list. How's it going to look when the NCAA gives a pass to the two big-name, big-money universities that also happen to be the biggest contributors to racial stereotyping? The high-minded principles that drove this policy will be exposed for the sham they are. The NCAA will then be forced to decide it if wants to continue to beat up on the smaller schools while, at the same, absorbing hits from the activists who convinced them to take this ill-advised course. It's a horrible position for the NCAA to be in. Myles Brand will have his "teachable moment," but he'll be the one doing the learning, not the teaching. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The speed with which the NC$$ rolled over is astounding. FSU is/was the big target of the original rule, especially with the their use of a mascot, chants, etc. Permission or no, FSU was a prize the NC$$ could not afford to lose. Once they let them off the hook without so much as a fight, the NC$$ really diminished their veracity on the issue. I can't wait for the whining editorialists to beat Brand & Co. up for caving to FSU. I *almost* feel sorry for the poor schmuck. Almost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YaneA Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 NCAA's exemption for FSU, as justified in the press release, is as unprincipled as its abusive/hostile rule. The mind reels at the internal inconsistencies! If the use of nicknames/logos/mascots is dehumanizing, marginalizing and all other kinds of bad-izing, then no "victim" could ever effectively "consent" to their usage. I always thought this name game would come down to money+power. FSU and Illinois have it; UND probably doesn't have enough of it and lowly Southeastern Oklahoma (the Savages) for sure doesn't have it. The exceptions always swallow the rule. It remains to be seen how the remaining schools will manage to qualify for their exemption. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YaneA Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 http://seminoles.collegesports.com/genrel/...scotletter.html Above is a link to the letter of appeal FSU submitted to the NCAA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCM Posted August 23, 2005 Author Share Posted August 23, 2005 It remains to be seen how the remaining schools will manage to qualify for their exemption. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> True. But I find myself wondering if it will ever reach the point where the NCAA hears all the appeals that are likely to be filed. With each move it makes, the NCAA's house of cards gets a little more wobbly. I could easily see the Executive Committee conceding that it acted too hastily and issuing a temporary suspension of the policy while it spends more time studying the issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YaneA Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 PCM: Well, wouldn't that "we-take-it-all-back" ruling require the NCAA to CHANGE its position on names/logos/mascots which, the release says, they HAVEN'T done (ROTFL), despite letting FSU off the hook? Instead, they could allow the original ruling to suffer death by 1,000 cuts (or more like, 18 exemptions) and then congratulate themselves on having forced all the hostile/abusive institutions to prove that each one is uniquely situated and worthy of an exemption. Sorry for correcting my post this way but I still cannot find the edit button. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MafiaMan Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 Max Osceola said it best himself: "Here's another example of non-Indians telling Indians what's good for them." Link to entire article containing the quote is here: Max Osceola Comments Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottM Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 After reviewing FSU's letter, it provides a nice template on which UND can base its appeal. While not having the express support of every Sioux band on the planet, it can point to its relations with different groups, educational programs, outreach initiatives, etc. Frankly, I doubt the NC$$ really expected the national backlash/firestorm they created. I expect they thought the schools would cave in, and give the errant schools an "excuse" to change their names that would harbor them from angry alums, students, etc. Given the increasingly hardened positions this rule created, I think the name-change crowd may have hit a wall, hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagies Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 Sorry for correcting my post this way but I still cannot find the edit button. It should be a green button right next to the "quote" button on the bottom right corner of your message. Once your message is posted you should see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YaneA Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 Nope, I don't see it. So, I used the X as in "delete" button on the bottom right side of my message. Oh....there it is! I didn't have my window set wide enough. Wider is better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCM Posted August 23, 2005 Author Share Posted August 23, 2005 PCM: Well, wouldn't that "we-take-it-all-back" ruling require the NCAA to CHANGE its position on names/logos/mascots which, the release says, they HAVEN'T done (ROTFL), despite letting FSU off the hook? I don't see the NCAA deciding to "take back" its policy because that would be admitting that it was wrong in the first place. I can, however, envision the NCAA saying that it will temporarily suspend its policy to conduct a more thorough study. And that wouldn't be a bad face-saving move because it's obvious to me that Brand and the Executive Committe rushed into this mess without thinking it through. Instead, they could allow the original ruling to suffer death by 1,000 cuts (or more like, 18 exemptions) and then congratulate themselves on having forced all the hostile/abusive institutions to prove that each one is uniquely situated and worthy of an exemption. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> That's possible, but it would mean that the NCAA is essentially throwing in the towel on its effort to rid college athletics of American Indian nicknames, mascots and logos. I don't think 800-pound gorillas give in that easily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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