Hobey Doper?

[tnt]

Remember this thread when a UND player has a minute substance found in their system. I imagine we’ll hear a lot of buts from the first to cast stones.

[Brett0909]

1 hour ago, The Sicatoka said:

If he wanted Vitamin D, why didn’t he take Vitamin D but instead chose this other Quercetin thing as @iramurphysays. Did he go to the store and not know how to spell “D”? 

And all these athletes are told time and again: Don’t take anything that the team hasn’t cleared! 

Quercetin is a mainstream supplement. It’s common in “immune boosters”, available everywhere and not banned in any federation. And ostarine was NOT disclosed. How do we know that? It’s illegal to sell for human use stateside, labeled as a research chemical, and NOBODY would reasonably expect it to be in an immune booster sold in the US.

Yes, we now know it was contaminated (and he proved his case because he won his arbitration appeal) with something that’s illegal to sell because, but he should’ve somehow expected it and now deserves his fate? If you want to crap all over a kids phenomenal career because he took an OTC immune supplement, just in case it could help him avoid missing a once-in-a-lifetime Olympic chance, go ahead.

Just don’t expect too many people without some odd axe to grind, to agree. 

[Brett0909]

1 hour ago, iramurphy said:

He took Quercetin. That isn’t a “natural Vit d supplement”.  It has never once been shown to be beneficial in either treating or preventing Covid. What moron convinced him to take it? It hasn’t been shown to boost anyone’s immune system either. The other outlandish claims including treatment for cancer are also bogus. The supplement industry is a multibillion dollar industry. The makers of these supplements can make virtually any claim they wish regarding their products and they aren’t obligated to prove their supplements work. They also don’t have to list potential side effects. If anyone is dumb enough to believe products that come in a bottle/box/pill form is “natural” then you aren’t very smart. If the Mankato trainers or medical staff knew he was taking this and didn’t tell him to stop they are partly responsible. Most supplements don’t do what the company claims they do and they have potential side effects. These athletes should be getting proper nutrition in their diets. Most don’t need supplemental vitamins and some vitamins in excess can be harmful. Dr. Don Hensrud who I believe grew up in GF, is a Mayo Clinic physician who is a recognized authority on supplements.  He did an excellent presentation on supplements at a Mayo Conference I attended. Most supplements do no more than give you expensive poop. Too many athletic trainers make the mistake of basing recommendations on hearsay they get from colleagues rather than medical evidence. 
I don’t feel sorry for this kid. He made a stupid, decision and these are the consequences. College athletes should think before considering taking supplements and check with their team physicians before taking. 

Ok, you don’t believe in supplements. We get it.  Anyone that uses them deserves to have their career tanked? Sure, seems reasonable…

Having supplemented quite a few things under doctors supervision with before and after labs proving their effectiveness (Vit D, iron, Vit B, and optimizing hormones and lipids) and many hours reading clinical studies (bio hacking/optimization is a hobby) I would say anyone who thinks supplementation is strictly a gimmick and almost always unnecessary is wrong. Is it a silver bullet or a replacement for peak nutrition? Definitely not. Is it an effective tool in the right circumstances? Yes.  

[iramurphy]

7 minutes ago, tnt said:

Remember this thread when a UND player has a minute substance found in their system. I imagine we’ll hear a lot of buts from the first to cast stones.

If a UND athlete is considering using supplements they need to discuss it with the athletic training staff or team physician to make sure it’s safe, it’s not banned by the NCAA and there is at least some minute evidence it can do more than a placebo. I’m not casting stones at anyone. If this kid actually believed this garbage would protect him against Covid or boost his immune system, then he isn’t being very smart. Doesn’t matter if he went to Mankato, UND or any other school. Making excuses for stupid behavior is enabling. I’m not commenting about the penalty. I’m commenting on foolish decisions about a kids health. It is a potentially dangerous practice and athletes need to take proper steps to protect themselves. 

[Hawkster]

I feel the 6 month suspension is adequate punishment, what I don't understand is why wasn't this announced months ago when it was first discovered?

[iramurphy]

3 minutes ago, Brett0909 said:

Ok, you don’t believe in supplements. We get it.  Anyone that uses them deserves to have their career tanked? Sure, seems reasonable…

Having supplemented quite a few things under doctors supervision with before and after labs proving their effectiveness (Vit D, iron, Vit B, and optimizing hormones and lipids) and many hours reading clinical studies (bio hacking/optimization is a hobby) I would say anyone who thinks supplementation is strictly a gimmick and almost always unnecessary is wrong. Is it a silver bullet or a replacement for peak nutrition? Definitely not. Is it an effective tool in the right circumstances? Yes.  

Some supplements are safe and have a place. Supplements aren’t a gimmick. They are a product sold as part of a multi billion dollar industry that is not well regulated. Too much iron can be harmful. Your body needs vitamins but not mega vitamins.  “Clinical studies” referred to in most supplement inserts aren’t valid. There is a reason most supplements include in small print the statement that they aren’t FDA approved and are meant to treat or cure disease or illness. You do what you wish. I don’t think anyone cares nor is it our business. The subject at hand is an athlete who took a banned substance and got caught. I doubt he intended to break rules but he didn’t do his due diligence. Thus,  there are consequences. 

[Brett0909]

19 minutes ago, iramurphy said:

Some supplements are safe and have a place. Supplements aren’t a gimmick. They are a product sold as part of a multi billion dollar industry that is not well regulated. Too much iron can be harmful. Your body needs vitamins but not mega vitamins.  “Clinical studies” referred to in most supplement inserts aren’t valid. There is a reason most supplements include in small print the statement that they aren’t FDA approved and are meant to treat or cure disease or illness. You do what you wish. I don’t think anyone cares nor is it our business. The subject at hand is an athlete who took a banned substance and got caught. I doubt he intended to break rules but he didn’t do his due diligence. Thus,  there are consequences. 

Now this is common ground I can agree with. Yes, the supplement industry is out of control and buyers should beware and be well informed so they’re not misled. We may disagree on the severity of the consequence and whether this was poor judgment or just a crappy twist of fate, but fair enough! 
 

I can guarantee there are many college puck players who knowingly ingested SARMS or AAS on the banned list for an extended time to give them an edge, who never faced any consequences as well, which is what imo stinks for Dryden here. 

[petey23]

It sounds like he had contaminated Vitamin D.

I don't think he should be criticized for taking Vitamin D. In fact that is something our government should have pushed back in February of 2020.

I am certainly not going to argue with a doctor about it's effectiveness but I was advised by a doctor friend to take it if I wasn't already back in February of 2020.   I have seen several studies by doctors and experts in infectious diseases  showing that while Vitamin D probably isn't a viable treatment for someone who has Covid and won't prevent someone from getting Covid it seems to certainly lessen your chances of dying, being hospitalized and/or having a severe case of Covid when you do become infected.

I always see the "experts" saying the studies are not peer reviewed so we will just call it a coincidence that people deficient in vitamin D are 15 times more likely to have a severe or critical outcome. I am sure the reason it isn't peer reviewed isn't because a year's supply costs about $35-40 and there isn't any money to be made. 

[The Sicatoka]

I'll bust on any (Purple Cow, Drool Cow, UND) college athlete for not listening to what they're told Day 1: Don't take anything that isn't approved by the team first. (Our guys used to be told to run everything past Pooly.) 

[The Sicatoka]

7 hours ago, Brett0909 said:

I can guarantee there are many college puck players who knowingly ingested SARMS or AAS on the banned list for an extended time to give them an edge, who never faced any consequences as well, which is what imo stinks for Dryden here. 

So the problem isn't that he didn't listen to his coaches, trainers, and team, isn't that he didn't only take NSF approved supplements, isn't that he ended up with a banned substance at detectable levels in his system. 

No, the problem is ... he got caught? 

[The Sicatoka]

7 hours ago, petey23 said:

It sounds like he had contaminated Vitamin D.

The Vitamin D story is coming from McKay's tweet. It wasn't his Vitamin D bottle that was the problem. (Dare I say they're trying to conflate D with the real problem?) 

From the SportsNet article

Quote

... McKay withdrew from the Olympics, shipped “my proteins, vitamins, everything” to a lab for analysis. Focus zoomed in on a bottle of Quercetin, a plant-based antioxidant and anti-inflammatory that some use as an immune-booster or recovery tool for COVID. 

The problem was, non-NSF-approved, Quercetin with the banned substance in it. 

Like I said, if it had been a bad bottle of D, ouch.
But he admits he was taking something not NSF approved (Quercetin). 

 

[The Sicatoka]

 

[The Sicatoka]

The statement from Mankato Athletics:

" ... able to quickly confirm with the NCAA ... " 

So the NCAA knew.
And the NCAA rolled with the USADA temporarily lifted suspension. 

All of this was kept very well under wraps for a long time. What was USA Olympics' and USA Hockey's involvements I wonder. That'd be a terrible thing (for them) to come out during the Beijing Olympics. 

Now it just sucks for McKay, MSU-M, the NCAA, and the Hobey committee. 

[iramurphy]

7 hours ago, petey23 said:

It sounds like he had contaminated Vitamin D.

I don't think he should be criticized for taking Vitamin D. In fact that is something our government should have pushed back in February of 2020.

I am certainly not going to argue with a doctor about it's effectiveness but I was advised by a doctor friend to take it if I wasn't already back in February of 2020.   I have seen several studies by doctors and experts in infectious diseases  showing that while Vitamin D probably isn't a viable treatment for someone who has Covid and won't prevent someone from getting Covid it seems to certainly lessen your chances of dying, being hospitalized and/or having a severe case of Covid when you do become infected.

I always see the "experts" saying the studies are not peer reviewed so we will just call it a coincidence that people deficient in vitamin D are 15 times more likely to have a severe or critical outcome. I am sure the reason it isn't peer reviewed isn't because a year's supply costs about $35-40 and there isn't any money to be made. 

I didn’t refer to Vitamin D. I referred to Quercetin. Nothing wrong with Vit D. We all need it. That isn’t the same as Quercetin so I’m not sure what your point is. I doubt a board certified MD would recommend Quercetin to an athlete. 

[bale31]

I think people need to take a step back, take a deep breath and think a bit rationally. 

I'll start out with saying that I know I'm going to admit that MSU Hockey is a bit of a blind spot for me, so take that for what it's worth. I will say this, in the interactions I've had with Dryden (which aren't a ton, but a decent amount), he's been a stand up kid every time. I've never heard a bad word spoken about him from anyone that coaches him, plays with him, plays against him, or has any interaction with him. That doesn't mean he couldn't be a horrible human being, but that's not what I've seen or heard.

As for what the school put out, I'm not sure what else they could or would put out. It's seems pretty obvious that this was a mistake. It was probably a bad mistake and he should have known better with supplements, but I also don't know all the mechanics of what he did or didn't do. We don't know WHY he took it other than to boost his immunity. Yes, he specifically talked about Vitamin D, but that does imply immunity. I also know for a fact that the team was worried about general sicknesses as well as COVID. They had a string of Influenza run through the team shortly before Christmas and they were testing for that too. In the little bit of Quercetin research I did, it seems as though it is known to stimulate immunity and that is from what looks like a peer reviewed study and published by the governmental organization, NCBI. To be honest, I don't know exactly what that means as I'm not in the medical field and won't claim to be that smart. That does NOT change the fact that it was still a mistake and he put something in his body that he shouldn't have. It was a ridiculously small amount, but it was still there. I've heard a picorgram described as taking a grain of salt and slicing it up 55 million times. He had 22 picograms in his system. Again, it's a ridiculously small amount and seems obvious it was an accident, but it was still there.

I also know that he was an alternate for the Olympic team (4th goalie in case anyone got the COVID). That is why he was getting tested in the first place. I know people are saying that he should have been suspended from that time on, but that's not how the system works. He gets to have an appeal process. In fact, he won that appeal process and if it were UFC or MLB, none of us would have found out about this because he won his appeal. That's why he's got 6 months, not 4 years. The fact is that he is still paying a penalty for something that wasn't performance enhancing (presumably) and was an accident. Frankly, it's a pretty harsh penalty too. There are going to be people that always think he's a cheater. He can't get his career started and that may be the biggest penalty of all. He's a fringe goalie (in the professional ranks) that just needs to get a chance and he's not going to be able to strike when the iron is hot. He wasn't going to get the same type of shot as a goalie that is 3 inches taller already, now he's got this going against him. It's not like he's getting off free here. He's paying a penalty, maybe not the penalty some people that want a bloodbath, but a pretty harsh penalty nonetheless.

[SiouxFanSince1990]

14 hours ago, brianvf said:

I don’t agree. 
Did you read the article? And McKays statement? The 6mo suspension is more than enough punishment IMO. 

Tells others that they can dope and still play college hockey. Sure thing. Anyone can make up excuses.

[jk]

Just now, SiouxFanSince1990 said:

Tells others that they can dope and still play college hockey. Sure thing. Anyone can make up excuses.

He obviously wasn't doping.  He wasn't trying to enhance performance. Pretty horrible that his name gets dragged through the mud like this. 

[SiouxFanSince1990]

1 minute ago, jk said:

He obviously wasn't doping.  He wasn't trying to enhance performance. Pretty horrible that his name gets dragged through the mud like this. 

With your expert knowledge, please explain why he was suspended then…

[The Sicatoka]

32 minutes ago, bale31 said:

That does NOT change the fact that it was still a mistake and he put something in his body that he shouldn't have.

Problem One summed up right ^^^ there. 

He admits he used a not-NSF-approved item. <-- Not smart. The team tells you not to do that. 

[bale31]

7 minutes ago, The Sicatoka said:

Problem One summed up right ^^^ there. 

He admits he used a not-NSF-approved item. <-- Not smart. The team tells you not to do that. 

And that's my exact point. He made a mistake, he's admitting it, and he's paying a high price for that. He was already going to have a tough hill to climb in the professional ranks. This is going to make it harder. It may not be too hyperbollic to say this is threatening his career. He didn't cheat, he made a mistake. I mean, are you seriously pissed off that he isn't kicked out of the game for 4 years? Is that really what we're going with? Or is it just to point out how dumb you think he is? I'm just not sure what the end game is of continuing to pound that point home.

[The Sicatoka]

Why is he taking non-NSF-approved stuff? To what end? He admits he knew better but yet ... 

 

And I'm wondering why the six months didn't start in Jan/Feb with the positive test. (Not Dryden's control; this skepticism is aimed at USOC/USADA/NCAA.) 

[tnt]

3 hours ago, The Sicatoka said:

I'll bust on any (Purple Cow, Drool Cow, UND) college athlete for not listening to what they're told Day 1: Don't take anything that isn't approved by the team first. (Our guys used to be told to run everything past Pooly.) 

Maybe Pooly should tell them not to put alcohol in their body either.  That would solve a ton of issues to make sure they don't get in other trouble like throwing lawnmowers or something.  

[The Sicatoka]

Is alcohol a banned substance by USADA/WADA/NCAA? 

Unfortunately, alcohol is just a dumb substance to ingest. 

[bale31]

9 minutes ago, The Sicatoka said:

Why is he taking non-NSF-approved stuff? To what end? He admits he knew better but yet ... 

 

And I'm wondering why the six months didn't start in Jan/Feb with the positive test. (Not Dryden's control; this skepticism is aimed at USOC/USADA/NCAA.) 

I mean, you have all the reasons right in front of your face. If you choose not to believe them, that's your choice. Dryden explained it. I re-iterated it.

The 6 months didn't start in February because it wasn't reduced until April. That's how appeals work. If it started in February, they would have run the risk of punishing someone that wasn't ever going to be punished for anything. Also remember, he's just accepting the penalty now instead of continuing to fight it. He could keep fighting it and most people would support him in that, but it probably wouldn't be worth it.

[Langster019]

11 minutes ago, The Sicatoka said:

Is alcohol a banned substance by USADA/WADA/NCAA? 

Unfortunately, alcohol is just a dumb substance to ingest. 

I feel attacked.