Raising admission standards

[Fedorov]

However, I know a few friends from the old days that had lesser scores, yet still did well in college and are currently successful in their careers.

Now that is just cheating. How dare you bring up that this whole discussion is based on a test used to decide acceptance into college, but is not a very good predictor of college success.

[ScottM]

Frankly, if somebody can't get at least a 21 ACT or 1000 SAT, they should probably consider a stint at McDonald's or dealing crack. I think you get 16 on the ACT just for entering your name correctly.

I see no problems with having players excel on and off the ice. Will it keep a player or two from the program? Probably. Will it spell the end of a fine hockey tradition? No.

[Smoggy]

If UND is changing ACT entrance scores, they should also look at their own scholarship program. The entire thing (at least when I went) is based on the ACT. I would think there is a lot more to being a good student than how you do taking a test all morning on a Saturday.

[bisonguy]

Obviously, trying to take UND's lead on raising admission standards, Minnesota State Moorhead has anounced they will raise their standards for automatic admission. Not only does a potential student have to graduate in the top half of their class to gain automatic admission, now they also have to score a 17 on the ACT.

btw- This isn't a joke, it was on the news

[BigGreyAnt41]

Obviously, trying to take UND's lead on raising admission standards, Minnesota State Moorhead has anounced they will raise their standards for automatic admission. Not only does a potential student have to graduate in the top half of their class to gain automatic admission, now they also have to score a 17 on the ACT.

btw- This isn't a joke, it was on the news

Actually, I just looked. MSUM is required a ACT Composite of 21 OR being in top 50% of your class.

http://www.mnstate.edu/admissions/admissions_app.pdf

[siouxyeahyeah]

I was sort of ambivalent about this, and thought perhaps Blais was just whining, but when I see the Herald actually calliing the higher standards a bad thing, I figure coach is on the right side of this, and that Harmeson and his boss are pushing things too far.

And of course, whatever the Herald thinks is obviously the correct and best answer.

[bisonguy]

Actually, I just looked. MSUM is required a ACT Composite of 21 OR being in top 50% of your class.

http://www.mnstate.edu/admissions/admissions_app.pdf

FOX news reported that the top 50% would need to score a 17 on the ACT as well. Maybe it isn't in effect yet. I guess a whopping 21 gets one in no matter where they finish in their class.

[jloos]

Frankly, if somebody can't get at least a 21 ACT or 1000 SAT, they should probably consider a stint at McDonald's or dealing crack. I think you get 16 on the ACT just for entering your name correctly.

I see no problems with having players excel on and off the ice. Will it keep a player or two from the program? Probably. Will it spell the end of a fine hockey tradition? No.

Check out this site LINK to see how one of the "toughest" Universities uses SAT scores. This is from Berkley, who decided the SAT is a racist exam that favors white students (no explanation on why Asian students do the best). I'm pretty sure Berkley gives extra admission points to crackheads - it makes for a more well rounded University experience. 21 and 1000 are still around the national average for ACT/SAT scores, I'm sure they are higher in ND and MN, but not much. SAT scores in ND are usually way above average, because most of the people taking them are those planning on going to a major East coast school.

[airmail]

There in my opinion NDSU has better engineering, ...

Uhhh... no. I work with many NDSU engineering graduates, and I still have to ask them "what the hell did you do in your 6 years at NDSU." Just one guy's opinion though...

Now that is just cheating. How dare you bring up that this whole discussion is based on a test used to decide acceptance into college, but is not a very good predictor of college success. 

My bad.

[The Sicatoka]

Having attended both NDSU and UND I'm sad to say UND easily takes the cake for athletic facilities but isn't even close to academic facilities. NDSU's Union is much nicer. NDSU's computer lab is state of the art. NDSU has many new buildings and is working with several large companies - see Alien Tech for the latest.

I don't see a single new academic building at UND The only thing UND can boast is a better library, which isn't saying much as they are both dumps.

This is just structures I'm talking about not the actual academic programs. There in my opinion NDSU has better engineering, hard sciences, computer science, music and athletic training programs. UND has better (or has period) professional schools/graduate programs, aerospace, teaching (NDSU goes through VC), and business.

I think you are saying, and if so I agree, that; pushing the minimum mandatory acceptance standards up make the school look better on national accreditations and reviews.

Athletic facilities? Hands down UND. Newman Outdoor Field is a nice thing to have but it's prime tenant is still the FM RedHawks.

Academic facilities? Is there anything that looks like CAS at NDSU? Those are pretty new facilities. Yes, the newest academic building on either campus is probably the building at NDSU just east of the engineering school. (I think that is for their accounting department.) I'm not sure what the last 10 years list for each campus is. (Ten years is "recent" in collegiate time.)

Considering academic buildings, if you think of UND as Merrifield Hall, NDSU wins. If you think of NDSU as Old Science and Minard Hall, UND wins.

NDSU would love to have the Upson/Harrington complex over Dolve Hall and their EE buildings. UND would love to have some of NDSU's computing centers.

Facilities-wise, it's where you look on each campus. (And I've spent a few minutes on each campus myself.)

Programs-wise, UND's Engineering School seldom gets the credit it deserves. The NDSU CS and math departments are a nudge better. UND's Education program is the best around and there's no comparison between Nursing at UND versus NDSU. Again, it's where you specifically look.

Overall, the disinterested party called Princeton Review, which we obviously are not, consistently puts UND on their list of the best. I'm yet to see NDSU on that list.

And as far as Alien Technologies, they've got some serious loan guarantees from the State (like $35 MM), but that's still an empty lot with a pile of dirt on it last I looked.

Back to the original topic here:

- nationally, average ACT scores are up

- UND applications and enrollments are up

Why not take the pick of the litter?

[jloos]

Athletic facilities? Hands down UND. Newman Outdoor Field is a nice thing to have but it's prime tenant is still the FM RedHawks.

Academic facilities? Is there anything that looks like CAS at NDSU? Those are pretty new facilities. Yes, the newest academic building on either campus is probably the building at NDSU just east of the engineering school. (I think that is for their accounting department.) I'm not sure what the last 10 years list for each campus is. (Ten years is "recent" in collegiate time.)

Considering academic buildings, if you think of UND as Merrifield Hall, NDSU wins. If you think of NDSU as Old Science and Minard Hall, UND wins.

NDSU would love to have the Upson/Harrington complex over Dolve Hall and their EE buildings. UND would love to have some of NDSU's computing centers.

Facilities-wise, it's where you look on each campus. (And I've spent a few minutes on each campus myself.)

Programs-wise, UND's Engineering School seldom gets the credit it deserves. The NDSU CS and math departments are a nudge better. UND's Education program is the best around and there's no comparison between Nursing at UND versus NDSU. Again, it's where you specifically look.

Overall, the disinterested party called Princeton Review, which we obviously are not, consistently puts UND on their list of the best. I'm yet to see NDSU on that list.

And as far as Alien Technologies, they've got some serious loan guarantees from the State (like $35 MM), but that's still an empty lot with a pile of dirt on it last I looked.

Back to the original topic here:

- nationally, average ACT scores are up

- UND applications and enrollments are up

Why not take the pick of the litter?

I think we agree for the most part. Having lived in Fargo much longer than GF I'm not as familar with UND. On the other hand I'm at UND everyday now, although the law school is just one building. Academically speaking I think UND is overall the better school. I still think NDSU easily beats out UND on the facilities. The technology park at NDSU has several new buildings at and around it, most of which are used by NDSU. NDSU has a new wellness center that is very nice (UND's will be better when they build their new one). Overall NDSU has 7-10 buildings built in the last 10 or so years. The best being the new engineering building that has its own state of the art computer lab. Minard was completely renovated, from what I hear it no longer rains inside

UND has better parking - something most UND students would find hard to believe. UND falls very far behind in technology - is there even a computer center? Anything health related UND wins easily except pharmacy.

NDSU has much more room to expand, and seems to be doing more academically.

I still think UND has the better overall programs. It seems like 75% of NDSU students are "business administration" majors (wtf is that anyway?), NDSU's business program sucks - these students are being prepared for a career working at Manpower.

Overall UND has better - students, academic programs, athletic programs, athletic facilities.

NDSU has better - academic facilities

This is my overall picture

[WPoS]

UND has engineering? Guess I think of you guys putting out pilots for NWA more so.

Thing comes down to this: College is for education, not sports. Sports SHOULD take a back seat to academics. How many football/bouncy ball players can't even read and they get a "degree" from a college? Don't get me wrong, I love the old college hockey as much as any of you, but it (college) is about an education, not passing around a "ball" of some sort.

Why are you trying to compare to NDSU? Take on the UM for comparison!

WPoS

[airmail]

Why are you trying to compare to NDSU? Take on the UM for comparison!

UM has engineering?

[Stack]

Frankly, if somebody can't get at least a 21 ACT or 1000 SAT, they should probably consider a stint at McDonald's or dealing crack. I think you get 16 on the ACT just for entering your name correctly.

I see no problems with having players excel on and off the ice. Will it keep a player or two from the program? Probably. Will it spell the end of a fine hockey tradition? No.

At a recent Sioux Booster luncheon Dean Blais spoke on this topic. He mentioned that half of the recent additions to the hockey program did not have an ACT score of 21 or highter. But he also said that for example one player came in with an ACT score of 19 and now had a GPA of 3.8. Plus all of these players had GPas over 3.0.

Blais's concern is that he'll miss out on players because of a higher standard than what some other schools may have. With the athletic department's commitment to academics (leading the conference with number of athlethes named to the all whateve academic team) I thinkt he coaches feel that given a chance they can get this athlete to get decent grades and to graduate from college.

If there is some leeway when it comes to this standard I think we'll be OK,

BUT....

[Basil]

NDSU's business program sucks - these students are being prepared for a career working at Manpower.

Don't get too cocky though. UND Law isn't really putting many into high paying jobs (despite what Brickson might be saying!) ...

[siouxjoy]

If UND is changing ACT entrance scores, they should also look at their own scholarship program. The entire thing (at least when I went) is based on the ACT. I would think there is a lot more to being a good student than how you do taking a test all morning on a Saturday.

I agree that the ACT test is a tough thing to use as a measuring stick, but is high school GPA that much better?

I graduated from a very small high school (fairly common in the Midwest). In fact, I had a class of 11, so to be in the top 10% I had to be the #1 student.

Plus, my school only had a bare minimum of classes offered: no AP, or really advanced anything. So, if a student graduates from a small school with a 4.0 and took home ec and shop, and had the same math teacher all four years of school, is that better than a student that graduates from a large school with a 3.8 and classes like AP Literature and Calculus?

That's why schools use both ACT and GPA to try to balance things out, although nothing is perfect--hence the appeal process.

[WPoS]

[The Sicatoka]

Take on the UM for comparison!

If you insist. ;)

Did you miss this:

The UND Medical School dean recently led the renewal of accreditation review of the University of Minnesota Medical School.

PS - That broken truss (it would never hold) on the front of the Minnesota hockey jerseys was designed by the Minnesota engineering school. Come to UND and our engineers will fix it for you.

PSS - Remember what comes after BS: MS.

[MinnesotaNorthStar]

[WPoS]

WPoS, fine...I'll compare UND to UM.  Our Aerospace Sciences program kicks the U's program's a$$     .

that is prolly because the U's AE program is in a building about as old as the Wright flyer!

PS - That broken truss (it would never hold) on the front of the Minnesota hockey jerseys was designed by the Minnesota engineering school. Come to UND and our engineers will fix it for you.

Sure it would hold, all depends on WHERE you put your supports!

WPoS

[jloos]

Don't get too cocky though. UND Law isn't really putting many into high paying jobs (despite what Brickson might be saying!) ...

I always thought of Basil as a UofM grad, he must be a NDSU business grad. I hope you're not in their MBA program - the reason it's so cheep - it's not accredited.

No Basil I didn't take your stapler, now leave me alone!

[Basil]

I always thought of Basil as a UofM grad, he must be a NDSU business grad. I hope you're not in their MBA program - the reason it's so cheep - it's not accredited. 

Nope...UND law grad 2001. Yes, I did time with Lockney, Zeirdt, Grijalva and Co. and it got me a good job in real estate and tax law, but the employment rates and average salaries they boast of simply failed to apply to most. Just warning you before you start bangin' on NDSU for it's future Manpower employees....I can name a good number of classmates who, when they FINALLY did get a LEGAL job, it was indeed with temp joints.

ps- UND Law had it's own re-accredidation troubles...hence, no more Dean W. Jeremy Davis...

[jloos]

Nope...UND law grad 2001. Yes, I did time with Lockney, Zeirdt, Grijalva and Co. and it got me a good job in real estate and tax law, but the employment rates and average salaries they boast of simply failed to apply to most. Just warning you before you start bangin' on NDSU for it's future Manpower employees....I can name a good number of classmates who, when they FINALLY did get a LEGAL job, it was indeed with temp joints.

ps- UND Law had it's own re-accredidation troubles...hence, no more Dean W. Jeremy Davis...

Every school pumps up their salaries. I transferred to UND from William Mitchell, they claim their average salary is $65K. I know of 3 or 4 out of 250+ who started out making that.

Davis did not leave because of any problems. He left to take over a program that was trying to get accredited when a student went postal and killed the Dean. It just so happened Davis was good friends with the murdered Dean.

As a whole the legal profession is too big, the trend is nationwide, not just at UND.

The country is finally figuring out they don't need lawyers for everything.

Such hostility towards UND? Why would you attend an institution you dislike? NDSU is a good school that produces many quality graduates, I was just "bangin" its business school which is not a very good program.

[Basil]

Such hostility towards UND? Why would you attend an institution you dislike?

Well, I didn't play hockey at UND (aside from the killer Law team we had ) so I saw no reason to pick a school based on my like or dislike of its hockey program. Anyone who does so needs help. I really enjoyed school at UND.

[jloos]

Well, I didn't play hockey at UND (aside from the killer Law team we had ) so I saw no reason to pick a school based on my like or dislike of its hockey program. Anyone who does so needs help. I really enjoyed school at UND.

You would be crazy not to pick a school based on its hockey program. The law school hockey team sucks now, I've heard they were good in the past. The William Mitchell team I was on had 1 former NHL player and 3 former D1 players (counting the NHL player) and 1 professional bandy player that was a better hockey player than anyone. We didn't play UND but beat Hamline and a bunch of teams sponsored by the Ford plant that included several goons from the Iron Range.

I was speaking of your hostility towards Mark Brickson and UND Law, not UND hockey.