Recruiting Under Jones

[UND Fan]

Some of us have had concerns about Jones' coaching ability over the last 10+ years.  I share that concern but feel his inability to recruit talented freshmen (especially those with any size/girth) has been a major issue as well. 

Looking at the last 10 years of freshman recruits:

2009   Two Fr recruits - Brekke - 6'6", Shuler - 6'2" guard

2010   Three Fr recruits - Huff - 6'4", Anderson - 5'10", Webb - 6'1"  Although Huff played the 3, basically all three were guards

2011   Three Fr recruits (all guards) - Gentry - 6'4" (lasted one year),  Benton - 6'3" (walk-on), Antwi - 6'1"

2012   One Fr recruit - Blake - 6'2" (walk-on guard) 

2013   One Fr recruit - Hooker - 6' (a stud!!)  Could have/should have been redshirted as a freshman (debatable either way)

2014   Four Fr recruits ) - Crandall - 6'4", Cashman - 6'10",  Shields 6'8", Richman 6'7" (walk-on) BUT.... Cashman lasted a couple years, Shields one year and Richman did not contribute

2015   Four Fr recruits - Collins - 6'6" (gone), McDermott - 6'4" (lasted one year), Seales 6'4", Avants 6'7"

2016   Two Fr recruits - Brown - 6'3", Walter - 6'8" (190)

2017   Four Fr recruits - Buchanon - 6''1", Moody - 6'3", Igbanudo (walk-on) - 6'2", Franken - 6'8"

2018   Two Fr recruits (so far) - Bijiik - 6'9", (195), Hazekamp - 6'6" (185)

Summary - in the last 10 years, we have brought in a total of 26 freshmen (at least four being walk-ons).  Thus far, six did not complete their four years at UND - that number could increase.  Of the 26, only 9 potentially had the height to play the 4 or the 5.  IMO - only 4-5 of them had the frame/ability to play the 4 or 5.  You can also count on one hand the number of these freshmen who were offered by other DI schools.

Obviously, you play the game with transfers as well.  We have had some fairly good ones but also brought in a lot of kids who didn't contribute and others who were not good influences on their teammates..   

****

Next thought - we are not going to win in DI BB often when playing 3 or 4 guards much of the time.  You can do it once in a while if you have some real size, talent & depth underneath.  Unfortunately,  we are lacking in all three areas.  My hats off to Avants for the way he battles every night against guys much bigger than him!

Looking at the rosters of all Big Sky teams and NDSU, I have noted the height and weight of all players of at least 6'6".  I fully realize that the talent level of two kids who are both 6'7" and weigh 215 can be vastly different but I think the following tells a story.  We must recruit more big, wide-bodies.

Team/players 6'6" or greater and their weight

UND (6)  6'9" (195)   6'8" (225)  6'8" (195)   6'7" (235)   6'7" (220)   6'6" (215)  This includes McCauley - we don't know his talent level and walk-on Brooks

EWU (9)  7' (240)   6'9" (235)   6'8" (225)   6'8" (220)   6'7" (215)   6'7 (210)   6'6" (225)   6'6" (215)  6'6" (190)

ISU (6)   7' (230)   6'8" (230)   6'8" (225)   6'8" (220)   6'7" (220)   6'6" (200)

UM (9)  7' (240)   6'10" (220)   6'8" (255)   6'8" (240)   6'8" (225)   6'8" (210)   6'7" (215)   6'7" (215)   6'7" (180)

MSU (6)   6'10" (215)   6'9" (200)   6'7" (220)   6'6" (200)   6'6" (200)   6'6" (180)

UNA (7)   6'9" (230)   6'9" (230)   6'9" (230)  6'8" (225)   6'8" (195)   6'7" (185)   6'7 (175)

UNC (5)   6'9" (230)   6'9" (230)   6'9" (225)   6'8" (220) 6'7" (210)

PSU (6)   7'1" (290)   6'10" (235)   6'8" (225)   6'7" (200)   6'6" (200)   6'6" (200)

Sac (5)   6'10" (255)   6'8" (225)   6'7" (220)   6'6" (235)   6'6" (195)

SUU (10)   6'11" (225)   6'9" (230)   6'9" (230)   6'8" (245)   6'8" (220)   6'8" (205)   6'7" (200)   6'7" (190)   6'6" (240)   6'6" (190)

WSU (8)   7' (230)   6'10" (220)   6'9" (250)   6'9" (215)   6'8" (220)   6'7" (185)   6'7" (195)   6'6" (240)

ID (8)   6'9" (230)   6'9 (225)   6'8" (210)   6'8" (180)   6'7" (225)   6'7" (215)   6'6" (205)   6'6" (200)

NDSU (8)   7' (220)   6'9 (240)   6'9" (230)   6'8 (230)   6'8" (210)   6'8" (185)   6'6" (210)   6'6" (205)

After reading the above, I almost elected to discard it.  There are so many variables that simply noting height and weight doesn't necessarily tell you anything.  But.... I think it does tell us that our size and beef varies quite a bit from the best teams in the league.  This isn't news to any of us who follow the program.  It need to be addressed but it doesn't appear that it will be any different next year.  While Biijik appears to have very good talent, at 195 or 200, he isn't going to be pushing too many opponents around.    

In summary - I continue to have a concern about the program.  We can debate coaching ability but IMO to be a solid, conference challenger every year, you need to bring in one excellent player and one very good player every year (preferably freshmen).  Then, if you have other roster spots open, bring in the best players available to meet a need or take a chance on a young kid who could develop into a solid player.   

Lastly, I am sure there are a couple of errors above but I don't think any oversights would relieve any of my concerns. 

 

 

 

 

  

 

[SWSiouxMN]

This is an interesting list and it does tell a part of the picture.  I won't get too much into details (but potentially will at a later date).  I've always have thought of the recruiting in these brief terms. 

HS:  Gotten some really good players (especially guards), the bigs have been hit or miss

JUCO:  Outside of Baldwin and flashes of Traylor not so hot. 

Transfers:  Solid, although a couple of duds (see 14-15 season)

*I still get bothered by the Huff class, they are one of the greatest what-if questions in UND sports history.  What if Brekke never took that elbow?  What if the NCAA didn't screw over Nash?  What if Traylor got his grades in order his junior year? Answer yes to those three questions and I say we have 3 BSC titles and not 1. 

*BTW: you have 1 big omission (Geno)

[GDPritch]

I commented a few times this season to friends at UND hoops games, he does seem to have trouble recruiting decent height bulkier/brawnier players. 

[UND Fan]

9 hours ago, SWSiouxMN said:

This is an interesting list and it does tell a part of the picture.  I won't get too much into details (but potentially will at a later date).  I've always have thought of the recruiting in these brief terms. 

HS:  Gotten some really good players (especially guards), the bigs have been hit or miss

JUCO:  Outside of Baldwin and flashes of Traylor not so hot. 

Transfers:  Solid, although a couple of duds (see 14-15 season)

*I still get bothered by the Huff class, they are one of the greatest what-if questions in UND sports history.  What if Brekke never took that elbow?  What if the NCAA didn't screw over Nash?  What if Traylor got his grades in order his junior year? Answer yes to those three questions and I say we have 3 BSC titles and not 1. 

*BTW: you have 1 big omission (Geno)

Wow - not sure how I missed him.  Correction has been made!

[jdub27]

Pretty interesting list, thanks for compiling.

Some random thoughts:

• Everyone struggles to a point to find big men, let alone talented ones, at this level. Most guys are going to projects of some form.
• It's still a little surprising there haven't been at least a couple more quality big men, especially considering Jones was a decent post player back when he played.
• I don't know the answer but does the up-tempo style UND plays make it easier to get guards/wings (which are easier to find in general) and hampers big man recruiting somewhat?
• Maybe there just aren't that many tall kids in Iowa that UI/UNI/USI/Drake don't get so there isn't much left for UND (only kind of joking).

[the green team]

I still contend that the Big Sky semifinal between UND and Weber State in 2013 at Dahlberg Arena in Missoula was one of the best games of college basketball (at our level...mid to low major) I've watched.  Win or lose.  In that instance we lost, but it was just a very well played, wonderfully intense game.   Of course the class of Anderson, Webb, Huff were the catalysts(Of course I was a huge fan of, but I know many weren't).  But Brekke, Wilmer and Schuler, also played good roles.  In fact Wilmer was playing so good by that point in his career.   It took several years to get to that point, but eventually he was incredibly serviceable inside.  A look at our "bigs" over the last decade, it's been players who were from the region in Wilmer and Brekke who may have been some of our better finds  for that area of the roster.  Sadly for Brekke, injuries cut his time short.  I think that has got to be the formula for getting "Bigs" who contribute.  It shows that red-shirting is a good option in the development of those players for UND's level.  If there is a legitimate complaint that I would have is that Walter didn't red-shirt last year, and Franken didn't red-shirt this year.  I think that is a legitimate criticism.   Those 2 players would have been way better in their 5th year seasons as opposed to their 4th year.  Even if the player is hesitant to take a red-shirt, which many are, because they want to be done with school in a certain period of time, an example like Wilmer should be used to at least demonstrate that it can be effective.  But every player is going to make the choice that they feel is best for them after all the options are laid out.

If you look at the low or mid major teams that get a win or win(s) plural in the tournament...it's almost always because they have found some diamond in the rough outstanding veteran guard play.  For example....SDSU had Wolters, NDSU had Woodside, UND had Hooker & Crandall- got to the tournament but didn't make a run.  A step up Northern Iowa, has had Farokhmenesh and Ahelegbe or even Wes Washpun and Jeremy Morgan.   The hunt for talented guards must continue, because when you have them they are the engine of a potential run...so IMHO, I'm not disappointed that we look for sneaky talented guards, and I know that it is not easy to find good "Bigs" at our level...cause if they are good, most likely every other team is after them too.  There is more guards in the pool to choose from.  And quite honestly, at least over the last decade, we've had some very good guards to watch in UND's back court.

[UND Fan]

42 minutes ago, the green team said:

I still contend that the Big Sky semifinal between UND and Weber State in 2013 at Dahlberg Arena in Missoula was one of the best games of college basketball (at our level...mid to low major) I've watched.  Win or lose.  In that instance we lost, but it was just a very well played, wonderfully intense game.   Of course the class of Anderson, Webb, Huff were the catalysts(Of course I was a huge fan of, but I know many weren't).  But Brekke, Wilmer and Schuler, also played good roles.  In fact Wilmer was playing so good by that point in his career.   It took several years to get to that point, but eventually he was incredibly serviceable inside.  A look at our "bigs" over the last decade, it's been players who were from the region in Wilmer and Brekke who may have been some of our better finds  for that area of the roster.  Sadly for Brekke, injuries cut his time short.  I think that has got to be the formula for getting "Bigs" who contribute.  It shows that red-shirting is a good option in the development of those players for UND's level.  If there is a legitimate complaint that I would have is that Walter didn't red-shirt last year, and Franken didn't red-shirt this year.  I think that is a legitimate criticism.   Those 2 players would have been way better in their 5th year seasons as opposed to their 4th year.  Even if the player is hesitant to take a red-shirt, which many are, because they want to be done with school in a certain period of time, an example like Wilmer should be used to at least demonstrate that it can be effective.  But every player is going to make the choice that they feel is best for them after all the options are laid out.

If you look at the low or mid major teams that get a win or win(s) plural in the tournament...it's almost always because they have found some diamond in the rough outstanding veteran guard play.  For example....SDSU had Wolters, NDSU had Woodside, UND had Hooker & Crandall- got to the tournament but didn't make a run.  A step up Northern Iowa, has had Farokhmenesh and Ahelegbe or even Wes Washpun and Jeremy Morgan.   The hunt for talented guards must continue, because when you have them they are the engine of a potential run...so IMHO, I'm not disappointed that we look for sneaky talented guards, and I know that it is not easy to find good "Bigs" at our level...cause if they are good, most likely every other team is after them too.  There is more guards in the pool to choose from.  And quite honestly, at least over the last decade, we've had some very good guards to watch in UND's back court.

I don't disagree with any of your points except that looking for quality bigs in the region does not address the problem. They are seldom quality bigs in the area. But we do need to get them when they are available.  

I do agree about Walter and Franken although I understand that Walter made it quite clear we he came in that he didn't want to redshirt.  I don't know how hard we tried to change his mind. 

[Teeder11]

Great discussion. I see a lot of big European and Australian 4/5 players around the Big Sky and other mid to high majors ( remember Arizona from our Big Dance appearance).  Can we expand our recruiting footprint beyond Iowa ( kind of joking, too) and look for interest across the pond and/or Down Under? I know it's more expensive, but we used to do it all the time on a no-draw sport like WH.. and other programs seem to think it works OK.  Thoughts?

[SIOUXFAN97]

kinda like bubba has look to canada..think jones would hit it harder...lenny was good but there has to be some talent/size in winiipeg?

[UND92]

http://www.inforum.com/sports/basketball/4386139-ada-borups-6-8-big-man-mason-miller-looking-ascend-new-heights  The 6-8 sophomore is averaging 18 points and 15 rebounds this season for 7-2 Ada-Borup. He averaged 15 points and 12 rebounds as a freshman.

 

 

[GOUND]

How does Walters not got any weight or strength his 3rd year in Grand Forks?  There is a visible lack of a strength program within the hoops team. Is there anyone who has added strength since arriving?  Here is a major difference alongside other D1 programs...

[Jerry]

I agree with the premise that we have a lack of height and strength in the center and forward positions.  Unfortunately, with 355 Division 1 schools there are only so many big bodies out there.  Especially with our location. Not much available in ND, northern Minnesota, and Canada.  Hard to get anyone from South Dakota with the SD schools.  Same with Nebraska, the SD schools have the advantage over UND.  In Iowa we have gotten some good kids because of our coaches are from there but again we are competition with N.Iowa and the SD schools.  I see 6-10 Own Coburn from Iowa committed to SDSU.  I agree we should try to red shirt players like Walter and Franken and have them hit the weights.  SDSU is redshirting 3 players and have a thin bench.   In defense of the the current coaches, when Bernstein and Shanks left after graduating in May,  it is too late to recruit any big bodies to replace them.  Getting more foreign players might be an answer but can be difficult without and foreign connections to coaches.

[UND1983]

Was a great move for Shanks.  Sits on the end of the bench in front of 2000 people every game.  Doesn't even play at all.  Not like the academics of the school are making Yale blush, either.   

[Oxbow6]

On 2/6/2018 at 1:18 PM, UND92 said:

http://www.inforum.com/sports/basketball/4386139-ada-borups-6-8-big-man-mason-miller-looking-ascend-new-heights  The 6-8 sophomore is averaging 18 points and 15 rebounds this season for 7-2 Ada-Borup. He averaged 15 points and 12 rebounds as a freshman.

 

 

Have seen him play multiple times.......has the skills, size and temperament to play the "4" at a mid major D1 program. Talked to his FB coach earlier this winter.........he thinks he could be a Big 10 FB talent.