The Great Debate: CHL vs NCAA

[scpa0305]

30 minutes ago, Cratter said:

It would also be one hell of a game UND vs some AHL teams.

We could go round and round.

 

Alright, that's aggressive.

[brianvf]

1 hour ago, KTF said:

Just a random look at the game between B.U., a very good to elite hockey program from an elite conference, showed that B.U. played their very best players (and started their top players) and yet still lost to the U-18s. They may be "exhibition" games but as you know, in college where few games are played, even exhibition ones are treated as the real deal.

BU is typically a very good NCAA team, but would certainly have not been considered elite this past season.  Next year they will be stacked with 1st round talent, but this year they were a few levels below after Eichel left.  BU got absolutely throttled to end their season by a team that had their season ended by UND shortly afterwards.

And your exhibition game comment shows that you've never actually watched a NCAA exhibition game. 

[KTF]

37 minutes ago, brianvf said:

BU is typically a very good NCAA team, but would certainly have not been considered elite this past season.  Next year they will be stacked with 1st round talent, but this year they were a few levels below after Eichel left.  BU got absolutely throttled to end their season by a team that had their season ended by UND shortly afterwards.

And your exhibition game comment shows that you've never actually watched a NCAA exhibition game. 

B.U. may not have been the creme dela creme but they certainly were an above average D-1 team, sporting a .603 winning percentage. The NTDP also managed to beat the NCHC playoff champions St Cloud State as well this year.

I've been lucky enough to have seen the NTDP play D-1 teams a  few times and the games seemed as intense as any regular season game as the college boys hate to lose to a bunch of high school kiddies.

[OshieRoll]

2 hours ago, KTF said:

Just a random look at the game between B.U., a very good to elite hockey program from an elite conference, showed that B.U. played their very best players (and started their top players) and yet still lost to the U-18s. They may be "exhibition" games but as you know, in college where few games are played, even exhibition ones are treated as the real deal. The reality is that this year's NTDP was a solid squad and did well against D-1 competition despite the players being several years younger. Yes you had that "16" year old "lightweight" go up against that "behemoth" 24 year old and the youngster not only survived but prevailed..

 

The shots were 45-22 that game with BU only managing 15 saves.  I think UND was the measuring stick most of us were looking for and we beat them 4-1 without two of our best players in Boeser and Schmaltz while using 3 goalies.

I also think you have to factor in that 4 of the NTDP's games this year were against 3 of the bottom 4 teams in the pairwise and they needed OT twice.

 

[UNDBIZ]

3 hours ago, KTF said:

They may be "exhibition" games but as you know, in college where few games are played, even exhibition ones are treated as the real deal.

Now you're just proving you don't know what you're talking about.

[stoneySIOUX]

20 minutes ago, UNDBIZ said:

Now you're just proving you don't know what you're talking about.

Absolutely. Hilarious to think otherwise, honestly.

[geaux_sioux]

45 minutes ago, UNDBIZ said:

Now you're just proving you don't know what you're talking about.

My calendar is always circled for one hockey game, Manitoba.

[stoneySIOUX]

30 minutes ago, geaux_sioux said:

My calendar is always circled for one hockey game, Manitoba.

Ironically enough, I absolutely have it circled for 16-17. But, for me at least, it's just a little bit more about a particular piece of history going into the rafters of the Ralph and not so much about seeing Taylor Dickin play, post UND

[KTF]

3 hours ago, OshieRoll said:

The shots were 45-22 that game with BU only managing 15 saves.  I think UND was the measuring stick most of us were looking for and we beat them 4-1 without two of our best players in Boeser and Schmaltz while using 3 goalies.

I also think you have to factor in that 4 of the NTDP's games this year were against 3 of the bottom 4 teams in the pairwise and they needed OT twice.

 

What matters is the final score and not the shot count, which by the way we all know can be inaccurate. The fact of the matter is that a team like the NTDP proves that age is not the mitigating factor many of you are making it out to be. A young talented team can beat an older squad. B.U. is a good team that featured 9 NHL drafted players but none of them were high end elite first round talented types. The NTDP will most likely have two players selected within the first 20 picks of the draft and will have a dozen players picked through out the 7 rounds. In short they are a very young but talented team. Now I've never said they could compete for a NCAA championship but merely used them as proof that 17 year olds can hold their own against your vaunted 24 year old 500lb beasts..do players get better with age, of course they do and I'm sure that if you take this same U-18 team and have them play as an U-20 then they very well could compete for a national NCAA title.

Now a team like London is every bit as talented as the NTDP, featuring 8 current drafted players and 8 player ranked in the upcoming draft, three of them in the top 20 and two of them in the top 10. There is no reason to think that they could not compete against a team like NoDak.

[UNDBIZ]

27 minutes ago, KTF said:

Now a team like London is every bit as talented as the NTDP, featuring 8 current drafted players and 8 player ranked in the upcoming draft, three of them in the top 20 and two of them in the top 10. There is no reason to think that they could not compete against a team like NoDak.

I agree they'd be "competitive" games. The 2015-16 UND team would win 8 of 10.

[KTF]

Just now, UNDBIZ said:

I agree they'd be "competitive" games. The 2015-16 UND team would win 8 of 10.

Curious as to why you feel that NoDak would win so handily?

[UNDBIZ]

1 minute ago, KTF said:

Curious as to why you feel that NoDak would win so handily?

Vastly superior defense compared to anything they've played. Bigger, stronger, more experienced, solid 3rd and 4th lines, and no shortage of drafted players. 

[scpa0305]

14 minutes ago, KTF said:

Curious as to why you feel that NoDak would win so handily?

u actually made several of my points in one of your previous posts. I say und wins 7 of 10. London and NTDP go 50/50 (maybe 60/40 London only because of marner).

[InHeavenThereIsNoBeer]

3 hours ago, KTF said:

What matters is the final score and not the shot count, which by the way we all know can be inaccurate. The fact of the matter is that a team like the NTDP proves that age is not the mitigating factor many of you are making it out to be. A young talented team can beat an older squad. B.U. is a good team that featured 9 NHL drafted players but none of them were high end elite first round talented types. The NTDP will most likely have two players selected within the first 20 picks of the draft and will have a dozen players picked through out the 7 rounds. In short they are a very young but talented team. Now I've never said they could compete for a NCAA championship but merely used them as proof that 17 year olds can hold their own against your vaunted 24 year old 500lb beasts..do players get better with age, of course they do and I'm sure that if you take this same U-18 team and have them play as an U-20 then they very well could compete for a national NCAA title.

Now a team like London is every bit as talented as the NTDP, featuring 8 current drafted players and 8 player ranked in the upcoming draft, three of them in the top 20 and two of them in the top 10. There is no reason to think that they could not compete against a team like NoDak.

But you seriously think exhibition and regular season games are at the same level? Sorry, that's all I could think of while reading this.

[Benny Baker]

36 minutes ago, InHeavenThereIsNoBeer said:

But you seriously think exhibition and regular season games are at the same level? Sorry, that's all I could think of while reading this.

Right.  Like last season, for example, when BU randomly put in a cold goalie against the USNTDP halfway through the second period of an October exhibition game for no other reason than it being an October exhibition game.  Coming in halfway through the game, the goalie only saved 10 of 15 shots.  Go figure.

[stoneySIOUX]

1 hour ago, InHeavenThereIsNoBeer said:

But you seriously think exhibition and regular season games are at the same level? Sorry, that's all I could think of while reading this.

 

1 hour ago, Benny Baker said:

Right.  Like last season, for example, when BU randomly put in a cold goalie against the USNTDP halfway through the second period of an October exhibition game for no other reason than it being an October exhibition game.  Coming in halfway through the game, the goalie only saved 10 of 15 shots.  Go figure.

I'm honestly not even in the ball park of his thinking. The premise is silly. If UND plays like they did in important games (the entire NCAA tournament this season), they won't win only 8 of 10.... they win all 10.

[joeyjr]

18 hours ago, scpa0305 said:

Alright, that's aggressive.

Yeah, I really doubt UND is beating AHL teams. I would say that they can be competitive in the ECHL and beat some of them.

13 hours ago, UNDBIZ said:

Vastly superior defense compared to anything they've played. Bigger, stronger, more experienced, solid 3rd and 4th lines, and no shortage of drafted players. 

Agreed, an entire roster filled of really good 20-22 year olds and a couple elite players vs a roster filled with really good 18 year olds and a couple elite younger players . . . Not to say that the roster from London doesn't have a little more potential, they just wouldn't win most games currently.

[stoneySIOUX]

I had some one point this out to me.... London's 5th leading scorer.... yeah, he was a healthy scratch for BU for much of his time there... 4 career points, 1 goal. I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.

[stoneySIOUX]

13 hours ago, KTF said:

Curious as to why you feel that NoDak would win so handily?

I'm curious as to why you think NoDak wouldn't win handily. UND has a better top line... yes, those three are good and POTENTIALLY great players, but they aren't as developed as the CBS, physically. UND has a MUCH better d-corps and nearly all of them are older and more physically developed. It's really not a shot at London.

[tho0505]

Love this debate. Comparing leagues is unfair, but clearly the NCAA is harder to play in, just look at the stats.  The lack of defense, physicality, and at times really poor goal tending makes for inflated point totals.  I think the CHL is great, I lived in Spokane where the WHL reigns and it's great hockey. 

It all comes down to age and development, NOT that one league has "better" players.  A 16 year old would get demolished in the NCAA. In some cases we are talking about a 8 year age difference, if a player in the NCAA is 24.   Of course, the NCAA team is going to be faster, stronger, and more mature, thus, why you see the NCAA far more competitive across all teams.  A 24 year old might be a better player currently than a 16 year old, but the 16 year old is just starting to develop his game.  Apples to oranges in league comparisons. 

 

[scpa0305]

20 minutes ago, stoneySIOUX said:

I had some one point this out to me.... London's 5th leading scorer.... yeah, he was a healthy scratch for BU for much of his time there... 4 career points, 1 goal. I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.

Bingo.  I don't doubt their top line wouldn't do some damage in college hockey.  Marner, Tkuchuk, Dvorak, and Jones are all top notch studs.  They also have a decent tendy and that Finnish Dman.  But it's a completely different game up there; the top dogs put up video game numbers due to playing against other teams' lower lines.  Most of those lower line guys end up in the CIS.  While there is more top end talent in the CHL, the depth is no where near NCAA hockey (and I'm not even going to bring up the age difference again).

[OshieRoll]

13 hours ago, KTF said:

Now a team like London is every bit as talented as the NTDP, featuring 8 current drafted players and 8 player ranked in the upcoming draft, three of them in the top 20 and two of them in the top 10. There is no reason to think that they could not compete against a team like NoDak.

Every draft-eligible player besides one on the Canada U-18 team is ranked inside the top 100 (London has 6 counting Marner from last year).  The Canadian team also had 3 guys inside the top 20 and plenty more in the 20-40 range.  The result when they played they NTDP? It was a 10-3 throttling.  A team that I think everyone would agree is better than London in the Canadian U-18 lost to a team that we beat pretty easily while treating the game like an exhibition and sitting 2 first round draft picks.  There is plenty of reason to think that the UND team from this year would beat London right now.  London might make it competitive in some games but I think UND would win a 7 game series every time.

This is a fun debate and I think it would be a lot more close in most years but this UND team was loaded.

 

[tho0505]

I rooted for London all year long, solid team and will have a bunch of NHLers on the roster.  As for them beating the Sioux, not going to happen.  I watched two of their games in the Memorial Cup (best of the best) and the pace and flow compared to an NCAA tournament game is completely different. The lack of physicality and excessive time and space is clear. You're not going to see a team get beat 9-1 in the Frozen Four.   

[hky]

I think the original question up for debate is, "Which path is better for development in the long term, the CHL or NCAA?"  There will always be stand out teams/players in one league or the other. 

[KTF]

6 hours ago, scpa0305 said:

Bingo.  I don't doubt their top line wouldn't do some damage in college hockey.  Marner, Tkuchuk, Dvorak, and Jones are all top notch studs.  They also have a decent tendy and that Finnish Dman.  But it's a completely different game up there; the top dogs put up video game numbers due to playing against other teams' lower lines.  Most of those lower line guys end up in the CIS.  While there is more top end talent in the CHL, the depth is no where near NCAA hockey (and I'm not even going to bring up the age difference again).

I understand this is a pro NCAA board and all but some of these comments are really out there....London's top line would do "some damage" but hey they wouldn't dominate in the mighty NCAA right? Well Tkachuk and Dvorak were the top forwards for the U.S, along with Mathews, at the recent WJC...but yeah I know, I'm sure you all believe that even the WJC is a touch below the vaunted NCAA and their tough bruising style with there massive 25 year old Dmen who would crush those puny 18 year old Finns and Canucks...except that this U.S. U-20 team featured two of the best forwards from NoDak who shockingly were behind the depth chart of the top two players from London. How is that possible?!?!?!? 

Link to the Bronze medal line up http://www.worldjunior2016.com/en/games/2016-01-05/SWE-vs-USA/#lineup-tab

Umm clearly London's top line would do as much and probably more damage then NoDak's top line did in the NCAA