NCAA To Sanction UND if School Does Not Adopt New Nickname

[JohnboyND7]

 

What is wrong with Roughriders?!!

 

the same thing that is wrong with every other name. "It's not the Fighting Sioux! "

[CMSioux]

http://undhockey.areavoices.com/?p=100733

So it must just be all other sports that are being "hampered" by not having a nickname. 

[darell1976]

http://undhockey.areavoices.com/?p=100733

So it must just be all other sports that are being "hampered" by not having a nickname. 

Hampered no, distraction yes. The whole school gets distracted on this issue from the top to the bottom. Others get distracted too from the media to fans. Is there a game where the nickname issue isn't brought up by someone? Is there a day, a week, a month when there isn't a story, a letter, or even a post on a message board talking about this? Prior to August 2005 there wasn't much talk about UND's nickname, now its about as bad as it was when this policy started. It died down when the cooling off period started now that the period has ended its a firestorm again. Will it die if UND has no nickname...yeah right. Everyone will talk about when (NOT IF) the NCAA will drop the hammer once again on the University of North Dakota. Yeah this nickname thing is not hampering sports....but it is distracting.

[Hayduke]

Hampered no, distraction yes.

Not too sure about that.  Not that it hampers our athletic department a great deal, but it may impact the decision of a student athlete who may have heard of this problem, and may understand the possibility exists of further sanctions *if* this scenario plays out the way some think it will.

Again, do you think coaches don't use this information against UND?  If you don't, you're fooling yourself. 

[darell1976]

Not too sure about that.  Not that it hampers our athletic department a great deal, but it may impact the decision of a student athlete who may have heard of this problem, and may understand the possibility exists of further sanctions *if* this scenario plays out the way some think it will.

Again, do you think coaches don't use this information against UND?  If you don't, you're fooling yourself. 

100% agree......see Dale Lennon

[CMSioux]

What information? Is this the conversation around a potential recruit's couch. "UND - oh haven't you heard they're gonna be sanctioned by the NCAA because their nickname is North Dakota - never mind their aviation school, their medical school, their law school - do you really want to go to a school that uses the name of its state as its nickname?"  

[UND1983]

http://undhockey.areavoices.com/?p=100733

So it must just be all other sports that are being "hampered" by not having a nickname. 

Another blue-chip, high end, once-in-a-lifetime recruit to bring UND lots of regular season wins.  

 

[Hayduke]

What information? Is this the conversation around a potential recruit's couch. "UND - oh haven't you heard they're gonna be sanctioned by the NCAA because their nickname is North Dakota - never mind their aviation school, their medical school, their law school - do you really want to go to a school that uses the name of its state as its nickname?"

I see.

So, they are recruiting student athletes to go to the UND Medical School?  I swore that they needed to complete their undergraduate degree first...maybe I'm wrong.  The law school?  Well, maybe they don't have to...Oh wait, they have to complete their undergraduate degree again.  So, I guess that blue chipper won't go directly into the medical school or law school. 

Aviation?  Maybe.  But, more than likely the conversation would be like this, "Well, UND is a fine school, but I understand you want to get your degree in business.  Why, we have a fine business school here too!  Plus, you know, that idea of not having a nickname..well, the NCAA may or may not go ahead and sanction them.  I sure hope they don't, I don't agree with what they are doing to UND.  But, here at Generic State, we won't have any problems with sanctions due to our nickname, or lack of it.   Seriously, no problems at all.  Okay?  Go ahead and sign here.  You made the right decision!  Welcome to the Generic State Fighting Kangaroos Family!"

 

BTW, recruits at D-1 level probably don't give much of a crap about the nickname of the school.  Provided that there isn't any potential backlash from that name, or lack of it.  We're the only ones that give a crap, and I'm beginning to give less of a crap what they call UND, provided that the threat of sanctions are eliminated. 

[bigskyvikes]

Not too sure about that.  Not that it hampers our athletic department a great deal, but it may impact the decision of a student athlete who may have heard of this problem, and may understand the possibility exists of further sanctions *if* this scenario plays out the way some think it will.

Again, do you think coaches don't use this information against UND?  If you don't, you're fooling yourself. 

lol...have you read this?

http://undhockey.areavoices.com/?p=100733

[jackal]

lol...have you read this?

http://undhockey.areavoices.com/?p=100733

Nothing like using a sample size of one to prove a point, especially before a name is even picked or not.

[UND1983]

lol...have you read this?

http://undhockey.areavoices.com/?p=100733

Other coaches don't even try to bring up stuff against UND Hockey, are you joking?  What are they going to bring up?  They are basically bulletproof.  Its whether the kid likes UND or another school/program better.

The other programs on campus....not so much. 

[Hayduke]

Other coaches don't even try to bring up stuff against UND Hockey, are you joking?  What are they going to bring up?  They are basically bulletproof.  Its whether the kid likes UND or another school/program better.

The other programs on campus....not so much. 

Exactly.  

 

Ask Dale Lennon.  Even Hakstol knew that it was time.  

Right now our men's hockey team is bulletproof.  But, Hackstol was around during the  downslide.  If that happens again, it could get ugly fast.  Even for the hockey team. 

It got ugly for football.  I'd have liked to be a fly on the wall during some of Coach Bohl's home recruiting visits. 

[CMSioux]

I see.

So, they are recruiting student athletes to go to the UND Medical School?  I swore that they needed to complete their undergraduate degree first...maybe I'm wrong.  The law school?  Well, maybe they don't have to...Oh wait, they have to complete their undergraduate degree again.  So, I guess that blue chipper won't go directly into the medical school or law school. 

Aviation?  Maybe.  But, more than likely the conversation would be like this, "Well, UND is a fine school, but I understand you want to get your degree in business.  Why, we have a fine business school here too!  Plus, you know, that idea of not having a nickname..well, the NCAA may or may not go ahead and sanction them.  I sure hope they don't, I don't agree with what they are doing to UND.  But, here at Generic State, we won't have any problems with sanctions due to our nickname, or lack of it.   Seriously, no problems at all.  Okay?  Go ahead and sign here.  You made the right decision!  Welcome to the Generic State Fighting Kangaroos Family!"

 

BTW, recruits at D-1 level probably don't give much of a crap about the nickname of the school.  Provided that there isn't any potential backlash from that name, or lack of it.  We're the only ones that give a crap, and I'm beginning to give less of a crap what they call UND, provided that the threat of sanctions are eliminated. 

Hmm so you've never heard a student say they are in pre-med, pre-law...I'm fine with moving on it's the fear mongering at all levels that is bothersome. 

[Hayduke]

Hmm so you've never heard a student say they are in pre-med, pre-law...I'm fine with moving on it's the fear mongering at all levels that is bothersome. 

It isn't fear mongering when there is a real threat.  Until I hear UND administration clearly state that the NCAA has 100% assured them that not choosing a nickname will never lead to sanctions, no matter what complaints are issued to the NCAA, I see a threat.  

 

[Benny Baker]

 

It got ugly for football.  I'd have liked to be a fly on the wall during some of Coach Bohl's home recruiting visits. 

yeah, he probably focused on his national championship success and ESPN's visits to Fargo.  No real reason for him to bring up anything about a nickname.  

Turning to another sport, how do sanctions affect the basketball teams?  We know grand forks is too small to host ncaa regionals.  Or do opposing recruiters come up with some lame line like, "hey, if you go to und, you can't play wisconsin or minnesota!"? 

Maybe UND's fan base is using the nickname issue as a crutch due to the likely mediocrity UND athletics has faced after transitioning to a more difficult D-1 schedule. 

[iramurphy]

yeah, he probably focused on his national championship success and ESPN's visits to Fargo.  No real reason for him to bring up anything about a nickname.  

Turning to another sport, how do sanctions affect the basketball teams?  We know grand forks is too small to host ncaa regionals.  Or do opposing recruiters come up with some lame line like, "hey, if you go to und, you can't play wisconsin or minnesota!"? 

Maybe UND's fan base is using the nickname issue as a crutch due to the likely mediocrity UND athletics has faced after transitioning to a more difficult D-1 schedule. 

The nickname issue has divided our own fan base. We have fans who claim they will quit donating to UND. We have fans who claim they won't come to games. We have fans insulting each other rather than opponents.  We are dividing between "hockey only" vs UND athletic fans. That is what opposing coaches will tell recruits. They will tell them fans are divided and won't support our teams. You are probably correct in that the Ag School FB coaches would focus on their successes rather than the nickname.

We are no longer the Fighting Sioux and our Native American Tribal Governments across the state weren't unified enough to clearly communicate support to the NCAA.  Native leaders at UND lobbied against the name and Natives claimed racism and discrimination based on the name. You have to remember the NCAA administration is made up of University Administrators from across the country, mostly PC types.  They were not going to allow facts to confuse the issue.  

Having a name allows us to move on and I think a new logo will do more for the issue than the name, just like the Brien logo was the best part of the Fighting Sioux name and logo.  It allows the University a brand for marketing and allows us to put the issue behind us.  Having no name allows the decisiveness and debate to continue to be a distraction for a long time to come.  Those resources and energy are better spent helping our athletes and coaches be successful. 

[Hayduke]

yeah, he probably focused on his national championship success and ESPN's visits to Fargo.  No real reason for him to bring up anything about a nickname.  

Turning to another sport, how do sanctions affect the basketball teams?  We know grand forks is too small to host ncaa regionals.  Or do opposing recruiters come up with some lame line like, "hey, if you go to und, you can't play wisconsin or minnesota!"? 

Maybe UND's fan base is using the nickname issue as a crutch due to the likely mediocrity UND athletics has faced after transitioning to a more difficult D-1 schedule. 

Dale Lennon made those remarks In 2012,  before ESPN went to Fargo and after Fargo U's first championship in FCS.  Not quite a dynasty at the time.  But those remarks are very telling as to what was going on with UND recruiting.  This didn't just pop up out of nowhere in 2012.  

 

Do I believe Lennon?  Damn straight.  I've know Lennon well before UND and he has always been a straight shooter.  If he says it, it's the truth.  

 

Right now, it appears that just remaining North Dakota will bring back sanctions.  Unless we hear a definitive statement from UND or the NCAA saying otherwise, a name change is probably the only option to sustain these athletic programs with a chance of success.  

Yeah, D-1 is tough to play and win.  Why purposely make it tougher?  

[Chewey]

Exactly.  

 

Ask Dale Lennon.  Even Hakstol knew that it was time.  

Right now our men's hockey team is bulletproof.  But, Hackstol was around during the  downslide.  If that happens again, it could get ugly fast.  Even for the hockey team. 

It got ugly for football.  I'd have liked to be a fly on the wall during some of Coach Bohl's home recruiting visits. 

So, the football team sucks because the nickname issue is hampering recruiting.  It's not because UND recently transitioned to D-1.  It's not because NDSU is simply better and has been for quite some time, just like the 70's, 80's and up until about 1993 when UND finally beat NDSU.  It's not because UND was stupid in not transitioning up with NDSU in 2004 and, thereby, setting itself back in recruiting, money, etc. at least 10 years.  It couldn't be because 3 or 4 other similarly sized schools who are also now D-1 recruit from the same area.  It couldn't be because NDSU and UND had a mutually initiated and mutually maintained pissing contest which has prevented them from playing each other for years and which, largely because of UND's own lack of perspective and foresight, has impacted UND much more negatively.  Nah, none of that matters.  All the coaches from opposing schools, et al talk about with potential recruits and their parents is the nickname.  The championships, # of players playing in the NFL, years-long dominance over rivals don't matter at all.  This is bluster and fear-mongering and it is intended to provide Kelley with "cover" as he says "because the NCAA said 'X', I can't allow 'North Dakota' to be an option.  Sorry, I'd really like to but...." 

Loving the Fighting Sioux nickname, wearing Fighting Sioux attire to games, yelling Fighting Sioux at the end of the National Anthem (which, by the way is the next "hostile and abusive" target for the emotional glass-jaws of the PC episcopacy), thinking that ALL of the proffered replacement nicknames completely SUCK, thinking that  the process of selecting the idiotic replacement nicknames was, at best, farcical and, at worst, completely duplicitous and an absolute waste of taxpayer resources, wanting to honor tradition and the native peoples who gave the previous nickname and not further insult them (hold Kelley, Peter Johnson, et al to the words/intentions they issued when the nickname was retired) by choosing a horse$#!+ replacement is not tantamount to either having some fantasy that the nickname will come back or executing steps to actualize that fantasy. 

Kelley, et al initiated and maintained the joke of the inauthentic nickname selection process with this committee and that committee in an entirely half-assed fashion to see what the "stakeholders" want.  It's no surprise that it has always been viewed as a sham and a waste of money.  Even the sham though showed that the majority want to stay just "North Dakota" and the fact that the Committee/Kelley took it out of the list of options only validates that reality.  If one thinks that initiating and maintaining a sham process,  selecting a horrible nickname and excluding "North Dakota" (the clear favorite) from the options is going to put the issue to rest, one does not have a psychological grasp of how errors piled upon errors only causes a catastrophic error in judgment to metastasize into something much worse, causes the entrenchment and augmentation and proliferation of opposing views and completely eviscerates the offending parties of any credibility (See the Vietnam War). 

When/if a legitimate replacement nickname is chosen, as opposed to one being ripped off from a local high school, a little-known and ridiculous weather phenomenon, (insert inane adjective here) "hawks", etc., when such nickname is actually the product of a legitimate, authentic, transparent, process that accomplishes the goals set forth in the inane verbiage of Kelley, et al about respecting tradition and native peoples, when all of the stakeholders (including the native americans who were insulted by UND and the NCAA) have had a good faith opportunity to participate and be heard and when that replacement name is supported by the "stakeholders", only then will things truly move forward. 

My wife and kids and I will be enthusiastically participating in the gathering on the 22nd and, yes, we'll all be wearing "Fighting Sioux" attire and, yes, we'll be adding our voices with everyone else in letting Kelley, Johnson, know that the process has been a joke and that the replacement nicknames constitute unacceptable effluvium from that joke.  No, we won't be saying or thinking that the Fighting Sioux nickname should or will come back.  Is it any wonder that the proffered nicknames are the natural by-products of such a ham-fisted process? 

Edited August 18, 2015 by Chewey

[homer]

So, the football team sucks because the nickname issue is hampering recruiting.  It's not because UND recently transitioned to D-1.  It's not because NDSU is simply better and has been for quite some time, just like the 70's, 80's and up until about 1993 when UND finally beat NDSU.  It's not because UND was stupid in not transitioning up with NDSU in 2004 and, thereby, setting itself back in recruiting, money, etc. at least 10 years.  It couldn't be because 3 or 4 other similarly sized schools who are also now D-1 recruit from the same area.  It couldn't be because NDSU and UND had a mutually initiated and mutually maintained pissing contest which has prevented them from playing each other for years and which, largely because of UND's own lack of perspective and foresight, has impacted UND much more negatively.  Nah, none of that matters.  All the coaches from opposing schools, et al talk about with potential recruits and their parents is the nickname.  The championships, # of players playing in the NFL, years-long dominance over rivals don't matter at all.  This is bluster and fear-mongering and it is intended to provide Kelley with "cover" as he says "because the NCAA said 'X', I can't allow 'North Dakota' to be an option.  Sorry, I'd really like to but...." 

Loving the Fighting Sioux nickname, wearing Fighting Sioux attire to games, yelling Fighting Sioux at the end of the National Anthem (which, by the way is the next "hostile and abusive" target for the emotional glass-jaws of the PC episcopacy), thinking that ALL of the proffered replacement nicknames completely SUCK, thinking that  the process of selecting the idiotic replacement nicknames was, at best, farcical and, at worst, completely duplicitous and an absolute waste of taxpayer resources, wanting to honor tradition and the native peoples who gave the previous nickname and not further insult them (hold Kelley, Peter Johnson, et al to the words/intentions they issued when the nickname was retired) by choosing a horse$#!+ replacement is not tantamount to either having some fantasy that the nickname will come back or executing steps to actualize that fantasy. 

Kelley, et al initiated and maintained the joke of the inauthentic nickname selection process with this committee and that committee in an entirely half-assed fashion to see what the "stakeholders" want.  It's no surprise that it has always been viewed as a sham and a waste of money.  Even the sham though showed that the majority want to stay just "North Dakota" and the fact that the Committee/Kelley took it out of the list of options only validates that reality.  If one thinks that initiating and maintaining a sham process,  selecting a horrible nickname and excluding "North Dakota" (the clear favorite) from the options is going to put the issue to rest, one does not have a psychological grasp of how errors piled upon errors only causes a catastrophic error in judgment to metastasize into something much worse, causes the entrenchment and augmentation and proliferation of opposing views and completely eviscerates the offending parties of any credibility (See the Vietnam War). 

When/if a legitimate replacement nickname is chosen, as opposed to one being ripped off from a local high school, a little-known and ridiculous weather phenomenon, (insert inane adjective here) "hawks", etc., when such nickname is actually the product of a legitimate, authentic, transparent, process that accomplishes the goals set forth in the inane verbiage of Kelley, et al about respecting tradition and native peoples, when all of the stakeholders (including the native americans who were insulted by UND and the NCAA) have had a good faith opportunity to participate and be heard and when that replacement name is supported by the "stakeholders", only then will things truly move forward. 

My wife and kids and I will be enthusiastically participating in the gathering on the 22nd and, yes, we'll all be wearing "Fighting Sioux" attire and, yes, we'll be adding our voices with everyone else in letting Kelley, Johnson, know that the process has been a joke and that the replacement nicknames constitute unacceptable effluvium from that joke.  No, we won't be saying or thinking that the Fighting Sioux nickname should or will come back.  Is it any wonder that the proffered nicknames are the natural by-products of such a ham-fisted process? 

So what is your idea for an acceptable replacement name?  

[Hayduke]

the same thing that is wrong with every other name. "It's not the Fighting Sioux! "

Pretty much hits the mark.

 

I don't like many choices, but I see no other decent options.  

 

It's time to go forward and, like Goon says, move on.  

[homer]

http://undhockey.areavoices.com/?p=100733

So it must just be all other sports that are being "hampered" by not having a nickname. 

They have as many recent national titles as "all the other sports."

[Chewey]

So what is your idea for an acceptable replacement name?  

Let's start with an authentic, transparent and truly participation-inclusive process that is free from cynical fear-mongering and self-serving propagandizing.  If the result is that things stay North Dakota for some time longer, so be it.  If it takes some time longer to transition away from 80+ years of a nickname and logo loved by pretty much everyone, so be it.  Eventually transitioning to a replacement in that fashion will get UND a lot more closure than forcing an idiotic replacement that is the by-product of Kelley's perfunctory sham.  The selection of a replacement nickname that is the result of simple negative inertia (i.e. we spent a bunch of money and had all of these committees so we must come out with something) of an erroneous course will not only NOT effect closure but will have the opposite effect. 

Edited August 18, 2015 by Chewey

[iramurphy]

Let's start with an authentic, transparent and truly participation-inclusive process that is free from cynical fear-mongering and self-serving propagandizing.  If the result is that things stay North Dakota for some time longer, so be it.  If it takes some time longer to transition away from 80+ years of a nickname and logo loved by pretty much everyone, so be it.  Eventually transitioning to a replacement in that fashion will get UND a lot more closure than forcing an idiotic replacement that is the by-product of Kelley's perfunctory sham.  The selection of a replacement nickname that is the result of simple negative inertia (i.e. we spent a bunch of money and had all of these committees so we must come out with something) of an erroneous course will not only NOT effect closure but will have the opposite effect. 

How would you do that? Who decides who participates?  There is no way to get all of the right people involved anymore than getting the name right. A small committee assigned with the task and given a couple of months would have worked better.  You didn't answer the question posed to you. What name do you want?  How about the Barons?  Oil barons, land Barons you decide.  Satchel Paige once pitched for the Bismarck Barons. Doesn't matter to me.  Oilers, Bombers, Flyers, Roughnecks, Drillers. Design a great logo and we are in business.  How much more time do you need?  I should say how many more years do you need?  Give us a name.  It has been how many years?  I have no issues with people protesting or disagreeing but what is the purpose?  What does it accomplish?  Who am I to say you are wrong?  Who are you to say I am wrong? I just believe there are more good reasons to move this along than delay any further.

[siouxstudent]

Show the official NCAA documentation on this.  But they can't, so they just issue more falsehoods.

Kelley and the NDUS admin are just coming up with convenient lies for why North Dakota shouldn't be a choice.  Kelley wants to make it seem that he has no choice but not include ND as a choice.  I'm not a "North Dakota" nickname supporter, but this is an egregious lie IMHO.  Marquette and Miami should have been sanctioned long ago if this is a standard.  How long before Kelley's lie in eyes are out of here again?

Ahhh what a joke story....If thats the case every Gopher fan in the world just became a Fighting Sioux fan. Scream it Loud Folks, Help your team by any means necessary. Hell id scream the M-I-N-N....chear if I knew it was going to F over the Goofs team. What a joke of an article, person should be banned from whatever troll profession they are currently under.

[Chewey]

How would you do that? Who decides who participates?  There is no way to get all of the right people involved anymore than getting the name right. A small committee assigned with the task and given a couple of months would have worked better.  You didn't answer the question posed to you. What name do you want?  How about the Barons?  Oil barons, land Barons you decide.  Satchel Paige once pitched for the Bismarck Barons. Doesn't matter to me.  Oilers, Bombers, Flyers, Roughnecks, Drillers. Design a great logo and we are in business.  How much more time do you need?  I should say how many more years do you need?  Give us a name.  It has been how many years?  I have no issues with people protesting or disagreeing but what is the purpose?  What does it accomplish?  Who am I to say you are wrong?  Who are you to say I am wrong? I just believe there are more good reasons to move this along than delay any further.

As I've said before, I'd prefer to remain "North Dakota" in perpetuity because once you've had the best and once you've rejected a gift that was meant to be for generations and once you've insulted generations of native people any replacement adds to the insult.  Pretty much anything you mentioned, however, is better than the pablum the university paid $300K or so to a consulting firm for.  The real issue is that there is a significant number of people who want to stay "North Dakota".  The real issue is that there is another significant number of people who want a new nickname "just to get it over with for closure" but who also acknowledge that the process was exceedingly clumsy and that the expensive result was/is horrible.  The real issue is that the vast majorities of SL and SR supported the old nickname and logo have not been involved in the selection process.  The only NA with any kind of involvement is the anti-nickname "plant" on the committee.  Weren't these some of the people the university claimed to respect and honor when it was trying to retain the nickname and logo? The real issue is that the process and its results have been forced and the process itself has been tainted by the shameless spreading of falsehoods and propaganda by the university and the Herald.  How stupid do Kelley, Peter Johnson et al think people are that they create false inferences and foment propaganda such as the latest Herald article?  The best they can come up with is some garbage that the NCAA will sanction us if someone "reports" someone else for yelling "Fighting Sioux" at games - something that's been happening for years now, post-nickname surrender?  That's going nowhere just like the whole meme about how retaining just "North Dakota" violates the surrender agreement. 

All of the above is not conducive to closure.  What happened was a consummate, immutable moral wrong and the university exacerbated it.  Moving along for the sake of moving along and continuing to blunder forward will only perpetuate the matter.  What should happen is that the university and the NCAA should retract the latest irresponsible assertion about "consequences" for free expression and Peter Johnson and Kelley should identify that for what it really is - conveniently timed, irrational and reactionary verbiage.  North Dakota should be one of the options simply because it is supported by a significant segment of "stakeholders"; gauging the input of "stakeholders" was one of the purposes of the process.  IF North Dakota is selected, so what?  It's the will of a majority of the "stakeholders".  Maybe a new agreement with the NCAA involving all of the stakeholders, including those, particularly the NA's, who support "North Dakota", could be derived providing the # of years after which the process to select a new nickname must be commenced.  This was a significant ambiguity in the surrender agreement. 

I don't know Kelley and I've never met him.  I'm sure he's a nice enough guy.  This has obviously been a difficult issue.  He and Johnson, et al have handled the matter clumsily and they have tainted it with antics like the recent Herald article.  Somewhat paradoxically, I would say that they and everyone else have learned that:  1.) The process has been a mess and has been bereft on any authenticity; 2.) Even though the process has been a mess, a significant number of stakeholders want to stay "North Dakota"; 3.) Because a significant number of stakeholders want, as per one of the stated purposes of the process, to stay "North Dakota" it should be included as an option. 

Edited August 18, 2015 by Chewey