UND and the Big Sky could go FBS

[Bulk Truck]

North Dakota

                                        

Men's Teams - Women's Teams - Total                     

                                    

Basketball                         $1,078,927                            $1,088,751                            $2,167,678                                            

Football                            $3,181,952                                                                          $3,181,952                                            

Total Revenues of all Sports, Except Football and Basketball, Combined                            $4,058,721                            $4,439,199                            $8,497,920                                            

Total Revenues Men's and Women's Teams                            $8,319,600                            $5,527,950                            $13,847,550                                            

Not Allocated by Gender/Sport                                                                                      $6,586,381                                            

Grand Total for all Teams (includes by team and not allocated by gender/sport)                                                                                      

$20,433,931                        

http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/

There is no GAAP for individual public schools that I'm aware of except for some state rules like in Virginia where the marching band, cheerleading expenses etc.. must be included in athletic budgets where most place else don't include that, but we can get an idea from the data. This information filed says "revenue" but it is really a small number of ticket sales for football and basketball and then subsidy and student fees plugging the hole to make up the rest of the "revenue". UND hockey (NCHC) falls into the "other revenue except football and basketball" and represents $4 million which is probably true ticket revenue (10,000 average fans per game x $30 ticket x home games roughy $4 million). The other $6.5 million not allocated to a sport is likely capital buildings and maintenance etc... that is likely related to the Ralph and hockey stuff in the majority.

The $1 million for basketball and $3 million for football is typical for and related to Big Sky and is much lower that typical MAC which is $3 million for basketball and $7 million for football. Half of UND's athletic budget is going toward Hockey.

That point had been made in general before. You did an excellent job of providing the specifics. These message boards often have information that is very incomplete or in some cases are complete misrepresentations. Thank you for providing some statistical information.

[UNDColorado]

North Dakota

Men's Teams - Women's Teams - Total

Basketball $1,078,927 $1,088,751 $2,167,678

Football $3,181,952 $3,181,952

Total Revenues of all Sports, Except Football and Basketball, Combined $4,058,721 $4,439,199 $8,497,920

Total Revenues Men's and Women's Teams $8,319,600 $5,527,950 $13,847,550

Not Allocated by Gender/Sport $6,586,381

Grand Total for all Teams (includes by team and not allocated by gender/sport)

$20,433,931

http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/

There is no GAAP for individual public schools that I'm aware of except for some state rules like in Virginia where the marching band, cheerleading expenses etc.. must be included in athletic budgets where most place else don't include that, but we can get an idea from the data. This information filed says "revenue" but it is really a small number of ticket sales for football and basketball and then subsidy and student fees plugging the hole to make up the rest of the "revenue". UND hockey (NCHC) falls into the "other revenue except football and basketball" and represents $4 million which is probably true ticket revenue (10,000 average fans per game x $30 ticket x home games roughy $4 million). The other $6.5 million not allocated to a sport is likely capital buildings and maintenance etc... that is likely related to the Ralph and hockey stuff in the majority.

The $1 million for basketball and $3 million for football is typical for and related to Big Sky and is much lower that typical MAC which is $3 million for basketball and $7 million for football. Half of UND's athletic budget is going toward Hockey.

Thank you for breaking this down. I knew we spend more on hockey but nearly all was not accurate. I believe that there are other elements to this argument such as institution size for example. Miami and UND are seem pretty even in enrollment (14k - 15k).

I am not hating on the MAC. In the past I have always pulled for MAC teams in football such as No Ill the past few seasons. Fun to see the underdogs (No. Ill the major exception) win. I just think that there is a fair amount of similarities between the MAC and Big Sky. However, there are teams in the Big Sky such as No. Colorado that do not fit these similarities. UND has great facilities and new buildings coming such as the indoor practice facility, but we do need more seats in football.

UND does need to put more resources into football asap. As I am sure you are aware we had a pretty rough season last year and many here seem to agree that more resources would help move FB in the right direction.

Out of curiosity what does Miami spend on hockey?

I tried looking it up but it appears that number has been omitted :

http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/InstDetails.aspx?756e697469643d32303430323426796561723d323031322673656172636843726974657269613d33313364366436393631366436393230366636363230366636383639366632363732363437343364333632663331333432663332333033313334323033313331336133343333336133303339323034313464267264743d362f31342f323031342031313a34333a303920414d

[#MACtion]

UND does need to put more resources into football asap. As I am sure you are aware we had a pretty rough season last year and many here seem to agree that more resources would help move FB in the right direction.

Out of curiosity what does Miami spend on hockey?

I tried looking it up but it appears that number has been omitted :

http://ope.ed.gov/at...4333a303920414d

I think everybody in the NCHC is spending roughly the same on hockey (in the $4 million range - same for Miami and Western Michigan). I think that is part of the deal with forming the NCHC, all the schools will fully resource top-level college hockey.

Careful what you ask for in throwing more money at UND football, it has to come from some where. More money thrown at football could be at the expense of hockey or another sport such as basketball. That seemed to be where it came from at Miami when we built Steve Cady Arena and Goggin, Millett Hall (MU bball) and basketball had been put on the afterburner (and football to a lesser extent) while the cost of the new hockey arena was digested. It seems we are through that and now Millett is getting a facelift and more is being put into basketball and football is getting our new indoor practice facility and plans are in work to break on stadium improvements that are much needed at Miami.

It's is interesting to look at both UND and North Dakota State. Both have roughly the same athletic budgets ($19 and $20 million) except NDSU is throwing more at football and UND is throwing their $ at hockey. Both strategies have been successful in gaining exposure and notoriety for the schools as NDSU has won 1AA football championships, beaten BCS teams, and had ESPN gameday on campus while UND has won hockey championships and has gotten great media exposure from CBS Sports, MediaCom, Fox FCS, etc.... It would be hard for both schools to fully fund both sports at a high level right now though so both understand where their bread and butter come from. Miami is similar in that we understand that hockey is a sport we can afford to fully fund at the highest level and enjoy the exposure and opportunity to field a true National Championship contender year in and year out while the sport itself has been gaining notoriety and growth. We simply can't afford to spend $60 milllion a year on football like Ohio State to be in the same situation in football, but in hockey we have everything OSU has while still competing at a high level in the MAC in football and basketball. I'd like to see both NDSU and UND in the MAC if they both were located in perhaps Wisconsin, instead of ND. Too far out.

[FSSD]

There is no GAAP for individual public schools that I'm aware of except for some state rules like in Virginia where the marching band, cheerleading expenses etc.. must be included in athletic budgets where most place else don't include that, but we can get an idea from the data. This information filed says "revenue" but it is really a small number of ticket sales for football and basketball and then subsidy and student fees plugging the hole to make up the rest of the "revenue". UND hockey (NCHC) falls into the "other revenue except football and basketball" and represents $4 million which is probably true ticket revenue (10,000 average fans per game x $30 ticket x home games roughy $4 million). The other $6.5 million not allocated to a sport is likely capital buildings and maintenance etc... that is likely related to the Ralph and hockey stuff in the majority.

In a recent news article in the GFH - they had hockey accounting for $5.8 m in revenue and $4.2 m in expenses for a profit of $1.6 m for the rest of the athletic department. I am not sure what the not allocated number is but the REA is separate entity from the rest of UND's athletic budget. I believe profits from REA are funneled back into UND athletic department but I have no idea what those number are.. when the REA is rolled into UND budget you will see a sizable increase.

The $1 million for basketball and $3 million for football is typical for and related to Big Sky and is much lower that typical MAC which is $3 million for basketball and $7 million for football. Half of UND's athletic budget is going toward Hockey.

I seriously doubt that over $10 m is going to hockey as I noted above $4.2 m for the mens team - last that I heard ladies hockey runs around $1.5/$1.7m - so, I think the number you are looking for is right around $5.5 to 6 m total for both m/w hockey.

Overall, what people are getting at is that the top end of FCS is much more like Sun Belt/MAC than the SB/MAC is to the Big Ten. The average Big Sky school would need to increase spending by about $1m for basketball and $3m for football to complete at the FBS level. NOTE: Montana and Montana St are basically at those level right now.

Conference - Basketball Avg Expense, Football Avg Expense

Sun Belt - $1.8m - $6.1m

Big Sky - $1.2m - $3.6m

Big West - $1.6m - $3.3m

MAC - $2.0m - $6.7m

MW - $3.5 - $8.7m

Summit - $1.2m - $3.1m

Big Ten - $7.0m - $22.0m

[darell1976]

In 2001 UND was runners up in hockey, and DII NC in football. It takes more than just money to be successful at both at the same time. It takes the right players and coaches. I think UND could be successful in the MAC, I'm not talking about winning the dance, beating Alabama for a NC, but be respectable with the right personnel in charge, without dropping hockey or dumping a sh-t load of money into football.

[SiouxVolley]

UND's books look much better than Miami or NIU..

UND Total Revenue - $22 m - $11 m from subsidy NOTE: Ticket Sales - $4 m

UM Total Revenue - $28 m - $20 m from subsidy NOTE: Ticket Sales - $1.2 m

N. Ill Total Revenue - $26 m - $17.5 m from subsidy NOTE: Ticket Sales - $2.2 m

I'm pretty sure UND athletics if it included the REA budget would easily be the larger than any in the MAC. UND ticket sales only include Champion Club seat licenses, not ticket sales. REA sells all UND sports tickets and they are a separate "non profit" entity whose profit feeds UND athletics. The REA has to pay administration, ushers, utilities, etcs, but gets ticket sales, concessions, suites, parking, arena advertising. Hockey alone has to be more than $5 million in tickets (250,000 per games x 20 games). Add in concerts and such, the budget for the REA is probably at least $8 mill, with 1 or 1.5 mill turned over to UND. Any way you slice it, UND has a huge budget for FCS when the REA is included.

If Miami is at $28 mill, UND is more with the REA.

[SiouxVolley]

#MACtion:

Is Miami planning to sponsor a women's team as a varsity sport? I noticed Miami has a top rated club women's hockey team, but sponsors synchronized skating at a women's varsity sport.

For a lowly FCS team, UND is building a indoor practice facility that would be on par with FBS' Miami.

http://www.muredhawks.com/ViewArticle.dbml?ATCLID=209333580

[Bulk Truck]

In 2001 UND was runners up in hockey, and DII NC in football. It takes more than just money to be successful at both at the same time. It takes the right players and coaches. I think UND could be successful in the MAC, I'm not talking about winning the dance, beating Alabama for a NC, but be respectable with the right personnel in charge, without dropping hockey or dumping a sh-t load of money into football.

Sounds like you are chasing your tail. IMO!

[FSSD]

#MACtion:

Is Miami planning to sponsor a women's team as a varsity sport? I noticed Miami has a top rated club women's hockey team, but sponsors synchronized skating at a women's varsity sport.

For a lowly FCS team, UND is building a indoor practice facility that would be on par with FBS' Miami.

http://www.muredhawk...TCLID=209333580

Miami IPF is going to be 90,000 sq ft

SDSU IPF is going to be 150,000 sq ft

UND IPF is going to be nearly 200,000 sq ft.

UND's facility is going to be massive..

[darell1976]

Sounds like you are chasing your tail. IMO!

Why? Oh that's right only NDSU can be successful at the DI level. Sorry Bill UND can be successful in more than just hockey.

[#MACtion]

I respect UND and especially their hockey program, its a money maker.

I also think UND, like NDSU, has the potential to be close to the MAC in budget and competition. But its not in football, and definetly not in basketball. Just like UConn has larger revenue than many bigger conference schools like Washington State, Wake Forest, etc.... and many schools like Northern Illinois, Miami-Oh routinely in the past, etc beats bigger conference schools, UND and NDSU are in smaller conferences that will never be lifted on par with the MAC, MWC, AAC, etc.... Thats just the way it is and I feel your concern because the MAC schools are in the same scenario with regards to the Big Ten, ACC, etc. Sure, UND or NDSU could individually get an invite to the Mountain West because they are great schools, but the Big Sky in general will not ever be FBS. Schools like NAU, Northern Colorado, etc have small budgets and poor facilities and attendance.

This stuff that Fullerton feeds the Big Sky schools is BS and disingenous in my opinton. Fullerton sounds like Baghdad Bob of Iraq right before Baghdad was hit with Shock n Awe. Do you guys really think that the MWC, AAC, MAC, CUSA, and Sun Belt are gonna all of a sudden decide to welcome the Big Sky to the same table with them after all the sweat and treasure they have given? Schools like Montana and most of the Big Sky was already given that opportunity by a desperate WAC and they didn't want to step up to the plate and spend the money. Those same schools are responsible for letting FBS Football in the WAC to end and now they are arrogant enough or naive enough to believe Fullerton that the rest of the FBS will welcome them with open arms and share their bounty? What is it you exactly believe? That all of a sudden the Big Sky schools "now" will spend the money and 85 scholarships for FBS that they wouldn't for the WAC?

The MWC, MAC, AAC, Sun Belt, and CUSA just signed a legal binding 12-year Contract 18-months ago with ESPN, the PAC12, Big 12, Big Ten, SEC, and ACC that GUARANTEES over TWELVE years at least $90 MILLION per year to our conferences. Serious question, does FULLERTON or those on this board REALLY believe that even though we've all seen how greedy the PAC12, Big Ten are for money and separating the gap that the Mountain West and MAC are soooooooo generous and nice that we are willing to share our hard worked for $90 million per year over 12 years (OVER A BILLION DOLLARS) with the Big Sky, MVC, CAA etc. ?

If you are honest with yourselves you know the answer is no, no matter what Fullerton tells you. Fullerton likes his job Im sure . One thing is for sure, the CAA, App State, GA State, GA Southern, UMass, Texas State, UTSA, Idaho, etc. don't believe what Fullerton is selling.... If they did then they would have stayed in FCS and waited for their free ticket into FBS and not spent a dime on new facilites etc....

[#MACtion]

Big Sky fans who believe if their is a FBS split** that the MAC, MWC, AAC, CUSA, and Sun Belt will merge with the D1AA are the same people that are naive enough to believe Kenneth Lay and Dick Fuld just days before Enron and Lehman Brothers bit the dust. Fullerton = Kenneth Lay and App State and GA Southern get that.

** Not gonna happen but this is an entire another huge thread of articles supporting this

[darell1976]

I respect UND and especially their hockey program, its a money maker.

I also think UND, like NDSU, has the potential to be close to the MAC in budget and competition. But its not in football, and definetly not in basketball. Just like UConn has larger revenue than many bigger conference schools like Washington State, Wake Forest, etc.... and many schools like Northern Illinois, Miami-Oh routinely in the past, etc beats bigger conference schools, UND and NDSU are in smaller conferences that will never be lifted on par with the MAC, MWC, AAC, etc.... Thats just the way it is and I feel your concern because the MAC schools are in the same scenario with regards to the Big Ten, ACC, etc. Sure, UND or NDSU could individually get an invite to the Mountain West because they are great schools, but the Big Sky in general will not ever be FBS. Schools like NAU, Northern Colorado, etc have small budgets and poor facilities and attendance.

This stuff that Fullerton feeds the Big Sky schools is BS and disingenous in my opinton. Fullerton sounds like Baghdad Bob of Iraq right before Baghdad was hit with Shock n Awe. Do you guys really think that the MWC, AAC, MAC, CUSA, and Sun Belt are gonna all of a sudden decide to welcome the Big Sky to the same table with them after all the sweat and treasure they have given? Schools like Montana and most of the Big Sky was already given that opportunity by a desperate WAC and they didn't want to step up to the plate and spend the money. Those same schools are responsible for letting FBS Football in the WAC to end and now they are arrogant enough or naive enough to believe Fullerton that the rest of the FBS will welcome them with open arms and share their bounty? What is it you exactly believe? That all of a sudden the Big Sky schools "now" will spend the money and 85 scholarships for FBS that they wouldn't for the WAC?

The MWC, MAC, AAC, Sun Belt, and CUSA just signed a legal binding 12-year Contract 18-months ago with ESPN, the PAC12, Big 12, Big Ten, SEC, and ACC that GUARANTEES over TWELVE years at least $90 MILLION per year to our conferences. Serious question, does FULLERTON or those on this board REALLY believe that even though we've all seen how greedy the PAC12, Big Ten are for money and separating the gap that the Mountain West and MAC are soooooooo generous and nice that we are willing to share our hard worked for $90 million per year over 12 years (OVER A BILLION DOLLARS) with the Big Sky, MVC, CAA etc. ?

If you are honest with yourselves you know the answer is no, no matter what Fullerton tells you. Fullerton likes his job Im sure . One thing is for sure, the CAA, App State, GA State, GA Southern, UMass, Texas State, UTSA, Idaho, etc. don't believe what Fullerton is selling.... If they did then they would have stayed in FCS and waited for their free ticket into FBS and not spent a dime on new facilites etc....

Look at your own conference before you talk about poor attendance. Eastern Michigan averaging 4000 fans in the FBS is a joke! Most of your conference don't get to the required 15k mark.

[JohnboyND7]

Look at your own conference before you talk about poor attendance. Eastern Michigan averaging 4000 fans in the FBS is a joke! Most of your conference don't get to the required 15k mark.

Look at the norm and not the outlier. All of them but one average more than the Alerus can even hold.....including playing games on weeknights.

I'm not a big proponent of the MAC by any means but don't crap on them for attendance when the mighty U struggles to hit 10K.

[darell1976]

Look at the norm and not the outlier. All of them but one average more than the Alerus can even hold.....including playing games on weeknights.

I'm not a big proponent of the MAC by any means but don't crap on them for attendance when the mighty U struggles to hit 10K.

Last I looked the Alerus is not an FBS regulation stadium. The MAC averaged roughly 16,000 last season the worst in the FBS. Why dump on NAU and UNC about attendance when their own schools are barely hitting the 15,000 mark.

[Bulk Truck]

Again, is it darell or his other brother darell?

[darell1976]

Again, is it darell or his other brother darell?

Are you Bill Kiefer or one of his poor, neglected horses.

[Bulk Truck]

You can call me Ray, or you can call Jay, but you dasn't call me Johnson!

[zonadub]

I respect UND and especially their hockey program, its a money maker.

I also think UND, like NDSU, has the potential to be close to the MAC in budget and competition. But its not in football, and definetly not in basketball. ... Sure, UND or NDSU could individually get an invite to the Mountain West because they are great schools, but the Big Sky in general will not ever be FBS. Schools like NAU, Northern Colorado, etc have small budgets and poor facilities and attendance.

... all of a sudden the Big Sky schools "now" will spend the money and 85 scholarships for FBS that they wouldn't for the WAC?

Thanks, MACtion, for a clear perspective from an established FBS viewpoint. Well stated and clearly presented. From your perspective, do you think UND's new relationship with Miami (and Western Michigan) in the NCHC could lead to some crossover in future out of conference football and basketball scheduling?

[SiouxVolley]

If you are honest with yourselves you know the answer is no, no matter what Fullerton tells you. Fullerton likes his job Im sure . One thing is for sure, the CAA, App State, GA State, GA Southern, UMass, Texas State, UTSA, Idaho, etc. don't believe what Fullerton is selling.... If they did then they would have stayed in FCS and waited for their free ticket into FBS and not spent a dime on new facilites etc....

It doesn't matter what the MAC thinks, as they've got no power other than what the Big 10 grants.

If you look back on this thread, its all about a deal between Idaho and the Sun Belt and the rest of the Big Sky. When the WAC was dying, what the WAC could have done could have killed or weakened the Sun Belt (the WAC offering the MVC + Ark St + Texas St + LaLa a new FBS league status, or the WAC offering every tom, dick and harry FCS team in the south FBS status). The Sun Belt chose to give Idaho and NMSU affiliate status in return for later granting FBS status to the Big Sky. The Big Sky wasn't ready to start FBS with the WAC: it needed to wait. The Sun Belt was granted a reprieve by absorbing NMSU and Idaho and so was the Big Sky by waiting. Idaho gets what it wanted: a regional FBS league, but later. Everybody is happy but the MWC, MAC, CUSA, and AAC. The Sun Belt has the right to grant Big Sky teams FBS status. Take it up with the Sun Belt. They will grant Idaho and the Big Sky FBS status, in return for the WAC not screwing with them.

Other FCS leagues are not going FBS, so don't worry about it.

[#MACtion]

It doesn't matter what the MAC thinks, as they've got no power other than what the Big 10 grants.

If you look back on this thread, its all about a deal between Idaho and the Sun Belt and the rest of the Big Sky. When the WAC was dying, what the WAC could have done could have killed or weakened the Sun Belt (the WAC offering the MVC + Ark St + Texas St + LaLa a new FBS league status, or the WAC offering every tom, dick and harry FCS team in the south FBS status). The Sun Belt chose to give Idaho and NMSU affiliate status in return for later granting FBS status to the Big Sky. The Big Sky wasn't ready to start FBS with the WAC: it needed to wait. The Sun Belt was granted a reprieve by absorbing NMSU and Idaho and so was the Big Sky by waiting. Idaho gets what it wanted: a regional FBS league, but later. Everybody is happy but the MWC, MAC, CUSA, and AAC. The Sun Belt has the right to grant Big Sky teams FBS status. Take it up with the Sun Belt. They will grant Idaho and the Big Sky FBS status, in return for the WAC not screwing with them.

Other FCS leagues are not going FBS, so don't worry about it.

That makes more sense. Never understood why the Big Sky schools would turn down the WAC offer and let them go exstinct and then turn around and want to go FBS. If your theory holds true, its just a delayed WAC revival. I still don't think all of the Big Sky should go, just the top 8 teams or so along with Idaho and NMSU and then NDSU and SDSU to make a 12 team conference.

[#MACtion]

Thanks, MACtion, for a clear perspective from an established FBS viewpoint. Well stated and clearly presented. From your perspective, do you think UND's new relationship with Miami (and Western Michigan) in the NCHC could lead to some crossover in future out of conference football and basketball scheduling?

I certainly think WMU and Miami would play North Dakota in both, travel would be the only impediment. Travel probably doesn't seem like as big of a deal to UND or any schools west of the Mississippi because thats just the way of life in athletics out there as it is much less densely populated and schools have to travel but to everybody east there is always the evaluation of why not just play somebody closer we can bus too and save the money and travel time issues on the student-athletes. I don't think Miami would come to Grand Forks for Football because I can't remember the last time any FBS team has played on the road at a FCS school, but Miami would certainly welcome the Sioux in football in Oxford. I could also see a home and home in basketball if that is something UND wanted. Northern Illinois would also play UND.

I just saw our AD David Sayler and a WMU rep being named on the NCHC new board, Sayler is a great AD and came from SDSU as their AD and did a good job there too with fundraising and buildings. Josh Fenton from Miami was also a great pick as NCHC Commish. Miami lost a good one there. So there are plenty of MAC ties with the NCHC schools if games are wanting to be scheduled, Im just not sure UND has a priority to play us in football/basketball.

[Hayduke]

I certainly think WMU and Miami would play North Dakota in both, travel would be the only impediment. Travel probably doesn't seem like as big of a deal to UND or any schools west of the Mississippi because thats just the way of life in athletics out there as it is much less densely populated and schools have to travel but to everybody east there is always the evaluation of why not just play somebody closer we can bus too and save the money and travel time issues on the student-athletes. I don't think Miami would come to Grand Forks for Football because I can't remember the last time any FBS team has played on the road at a FCS school, but Miami would certainly welcome the Sioux in football in Oxford. I could also see a home and home in basketball if that is something UND wanted. Northern Illinois would also play UND.

I just saw our AD David Sayler and a WMU rep being named on the NCHC new board, Sayler is a great AD and came from SDSU as their AD and did a good job there too with fundraising and buildings. Josh Fenton from Miami was also a great pick as NCHC Commish. Miami lost a good one there. So there are plenty of MAC ties with the NCHC schools if games are wanting to be scheduled, Im just not sure UND has a priority to play us in football/basketball.

It would be great to see a home/home in basketball and a game in Oxford in football.

I appreciate reading your comments. They have been very sobering and informative for many of our more enthusiastic supporters.

[zonadub]

It would be great to see a home/home in basketball and a game in Oxford in football.

I appreciate reading your comments. They have been very sobering and informative for many of our more enthusiastic supporters.

Thank you again, MACtion

+1 Hayduke.

[darell1976]

That makes more sense. Never understood why the Big Sky schools would turn down the WAC offer and let them go exstinct and then turn around and want to go FBS. If your theory holds true, its just a delayed WAC revival. I still don't think all of the Big Sky should go, just the top 8 teams or so along with Idaho and NMSU and then NDSU and SDSU to make a 12 team conference.

I can't see teams like UNC and Idaho St moving up. Idaho is barely surviving, UNC would be rivaling the Buffaloes for the Denver area media. If UND can get its ducks together which starts with Bubba they could be a threat in the BSC in years to come, and could be a player in Fullerton's FBS plan.