UND vs. NDSU

[GeauxSioux]

This from Northern Cass HS....UND vs. NDSU

At Northern Cass School, there is a big rivalry among some students and teachers on which is better, North Dakota State University or University of North Dakota. We all know that if someone wore UND attire, various people would provide a snide remark (Mr. Hollister). Then you also have those studentswho get very into the discussion if they’re trying to make NDSU look amazing and they are losing the debate. But what is the real reason why they are so passionate over NDSU? Which college is better, NDSU or UND? That is what we are going to find out

So if you’re in the middle of this war between NDSU and UND, choose a side that would best fit you. Even Mr. Hollister the world’s biggest NDSU fan, did state, “It all depends on what you are going into.” If you want to go into farming, engineering, and nursing, go to NDSU. If want to do law, medicine, or space, go to UND. There is one statement that you should keep in mind that Allison did say, “If you want to own the farm, go to UND. If you want to work for the farmer, go to NDSU.”

I would put UND's engineering school up against NDSU's. I don't know much about he Nursing programs.

Edited March 5, 2012 by GeauxSioux

[Siouxperman8]

I have worked with, worked for, interviewed and hired engineers from both schools.

No difference in quality of engineers from either school.

[bincitysioux]

This from Northern Cass HS....UND vs. NDSU

I would put UND's engineering school up against NDSU's. I don't know much about he Nursing programs.

I would think that a college with a medical school would have a quality nursing program..............

[GeauxSioux]

I would think that a college with a medical school would have a quality nursing program..............

As would I.

I would have to question anyone who bases which school is better, by which one is bigger. Number one, he was wrong about which one is bigger and number two, bigger doesn't necessarily mean better.

“NDSU is better because it is bigger and gives more opportunities to students.”

[Bison Dan]

I have worked with, worked for, interviewed and hired engineers from both schools.

No difference in quality of engineers from either school.

You're probaby right - The only guage I can go by is the bridge building contest that the civil engineering schools compete in. NDSU has won is 3 or 4 times and no other school more than once. I forgot who won last year.

[The Sicatoka]

Nursing at NDSU was an LPN program run out of a pharmacy school not that long ago. UND offers the full range of Nursing degrees (BS, MS, PhD). Win to UND. (And that's before even mentioning the benefits to UND Nursing or having UND Med across the street.)

And Engineering? Which branch? Electrical or Mechanical is a toss-up. NDSU does offer Ag Eng'g but doesn't offer Chemical or Petroleum Eng'g (UND offers both).

If the dude would have been smart he'd have tauted NDSU's architecture and pharmacy versus UND medical and law and business.

[UND1983]

As would I.  

I would have to question anyone who bases which school is better, by which one is bigger.  Number one, he was wrong about which one is bigger and number two, bigger doesn't necessarily mean better.

How is NDSU bigger than UND? Another lie along with the Nursing comment.

[UNDBIZ]

Business - UND

Law - UND

Nursing and most Med - UND

Electrical Engineering - UND

Aerospace - UND

Mechanical Engineering - NDSU by a hair

Civil Engineering - NDSU by a lot

Pharmacy - NDSU

Architecture - NDSU

Ag (other than actually owning the farm which would qualify as business ) - NDSU

[bincitysioux]

I would have to question anyone who bases which school is better, by which one is bigger. Number one, he was wrong about which one is bigger and number two, bigger doesn't necessarily mean better.

Utah Valley has double the enrollment that either North Dakota or NDSU has.

Just sayin'..............

[NDSU grad]

Utah Valley has double the enrollment that either North Dakota or NDSU has.

Just sayin'..............

How many students does the University of Phoenix? Something like 100,000?

[The Sicatoka]

And Duke and Stanford have smaller undergraduate enrollments than UND and NDSU. Enrollment is a poor benchmark to academic quality.

[TBR]

UND has by far the biggest geology and geo engineering program which has a tad bit of relevance to the ND perroleum industry.

[tony]

How is NDSU bigger than UND? Another lie along with the Nursing comment.

NDSU could be considered bigger if it has, say, 1000 or so more full-time students and 1000+ more full-time equivalent students. The number reported by the state is pretty much just window dressing designed to make everybody feel good, but in some ways it distorts the reality that almost all the schools in the ND university system are reporting record enrollments while actually having fewer students on campus than a decade ago.

Here's how I think North Dakota higher ed works:

University X has 5000 full-time students on campus and 5000 students taking two-credit online classes.

University Y has 9000 full-time students on campus.

I think that according to state the North Dakota, University X is said to be larger, and I guess by one metric it is. There are lots of different ways to measure things, some are more accurate than others. I'd say that the guy who you said was lying is being more accurate than you think.

http://www.ndsu.edu/...11_Modified.pdf

http://und.edu/resea...edback-2011.pdf

[82SiouxGuy]

NDSU could be considered bigger if it has, say, 1000 or so more full-time students and 1000+ more full-time equivalent students. The number reported by the state is pretty much just window dressing designed to make everybody feel good, but in some ways it distorts the reality that almost all the schools in the ND university system are reporting record enrollments while actually having fewer students on campus than a decade ago.

Here's how I think North Dakota higher ed works:

University X has 5000 full-time students on campus and 5000 students taking two-credit online classes.

University Y has 9000 full-time students on campus.

I think that according to state the North Dakota, University X is said to be larger, and I guess by one metric it is. There are lots of different ways to measure things, some are more accurate than others. I'd say that the guy who you said was lying is being more accurate than you think.

http://www.ndsu.edu/...11_Modified.pdf

http://und.edu/resea...edback-2011.pdf

1) More and more education is going online. That is becoming a very important source of education for many people that can't or don't want to stop their lives and go to another town for 4 or 5 years. Or for those that can't afford to do that.

2) Students are still students whether they are on campus or online. There are advantages to having those students on campus, but there are also advantages to giving people options and being able to serve their needs online. Being flexible to serve students in ways that work for the students will be more and more important in future years.

3) The trend is going toward more part-time students because of cost. This is true across the country.

4) Statistics can help you prove almost anything you want if you interpret them the way you want. There ARE different ways to measure things, what is more important is deciding what you want to measure and what is actually most relevant to the situation.

5) It doesn't make much difference if NDSU is bigger by a few hundred students or if UND is bigger by a few hundred students. They are the 2 major schools in the state.

6) Number of students is not directly related to the potential opportunities available to those students.

Fixating on the number of full time students or full time students on campus may prevent your favorite school from providing the best educational opportunities for the students.

[tony]

Fixating on the number of full time students or full time students on campus may prevent your favorite school from providing the best educational opportunities for the students.

Well, I never said that bigger was better. Some posters were calling Mr. Hollister a liar and I presented an argument, with supporting evidence, to refute that claim.

You've opened another line of discussion. I'll grant you that distance learning is fine and dandy; however, the two primary purposes for a university are to grant degrees and conduct research. Online courses sound suspiciously like extension work.

[82SiouxGuy]

Well, I never said that bigger was better. Some posters were calling Mr. Hollister a liar and I presented an argument, with supporting evidence, to refute that claim.

You've opened another line of discussion. I'll grant you that distance learning is fine and dandy; however, the two primary purposes for a university are to grant degrees and conduct research. Online courses sound suspiciously like extension work.

Online courses that lead to degrees are more than just extension work. UND offers multiple degrees that can be completed with limited time on campus. Many of the classes do require some time on campus to complete labs or work with teachers. Some do not require time on campus at all. UND has become a leader in the nation for online programming. These students are paying for a quality education and they are receiving a quality education. More and more students will look at this option for their education.

Mr. Hollister seemed to make 2 related points. One is that NDSU was bigger. That can be subjective because it depends on what his definition of "bigger" is. Total students? Full time students? Campus size? Number of teachers? Normally a generic claim of being bigger in this type of discussion would mean total number of students. You take it as full time students because you feel they are more important. Either way it is a stupid argument because it isn't well defined, and neither definition is really more important on its own. More important are things like the direction that the school is headed, what their goals actually are and if the school is reaching its goals.

His other argument was that more students means more opportunity. That doesn't hold any water. Opportunity at a school comes from options available. That isn't directly dependent on number of students. From the numbers you provided it looks like NDSU provides more options for bachelor degrees and research related PhDs while UND has more options for masters and professional degrees. UND wins the total degrees. But none of that matters if the school doesn't have the options that the student wants or needs. Both schools provide a great deal of opportunity for students. It just depends on which direction is best for the student.

[UNDBIZ]

Inreasing stated enrollment every year should not be the goal of any University (See Dickinson State). A larger enrollment has limited bearing on academic quality. Also, giving waivers to everyone not from North Dakota or Minnesota (see NDSU) is no way to improve the financial state of the institution.

UND has one of the highest rated online programs in the country. It sits behind the University of Wisconsin and Iowa State University. Seems like decent company

[UND1983]

NDSU could be considered bigger if it has, say, 1000 or so more full-time students and 1000+ more full-time equivalent students. The number reported by the state is pretty much just window dressing designed to make everybody feel good, but in some ways it distorts the reality that almost all the schools in the ND university system are reporting record enrollments while actually having fewer students on campus than a decade ago.

Here's how I think North Dakota higher ed works:

University X has 5000 full-time students on campus and 5000 students taking two-credit online classes.

University Y has 9000 full-time students on campus.

I think that according to state the North Dakota, University X is said to be larger, and I guess by one metric it is. There are lots of different ways to measure things, some are more accurate than others. I'd say that the guy who you said was lying is being more accurate than you think.

http://www.ndsu.edu/...11_Modified.pdf

http://und.edu/resea...edback-2011.pdf

Your forums followers made a huge deal out of those 'window dressing' numbers back about 5 years ago when NDSU finally passed UND after 120 years (we are the flagship now, we are the largest in state). Now that it is back to normal you are discounting the way they are calculated?

[tony]

Your forums followers made a huge deal out of those 'window dressing' numbers back about 5 years ago when NDSU finally passed UND after 120 years (we are the flagship now, we are the largest in state). Now that it is back to normal you are discounting the way they are calculated?

Well, I suppose that was partly because they knew that they were hitting you where it hurt. After all, UND got caught inflating enrollment numbers once... turned out that UND had been doing it for 17 straight years before anybody called them on it. If enrollment numbers weren't important to UND, why did successive UND adminstration feel the need to do that?

Besides, if you are going to get huffy about inaccurate statements, why ignore the biggest fib out there (i.e. "If you want to own the farm, go to UND. If you want to work for a farmer, go to NDSU?")

Shouldn't that be "If you are ashamed of agriculture and mock everybody associated with it at every opportunity, go to UND. If you are serious about the industry, go to NDSU?" <== That's a heckuva a lot more accurate.

[jdub27]

Besides, if you are going to get huffy about inaccurate statements, why ignore the biggest fib out there (i.e. "If you want to own the farm, go to UND. If you want to work for a farmer, go to NDSU?")

Shouldn't that be "If you are ashamed of agriculture and mock everybody associated with it at every opportunity, go to UND. If you are serious about the industry, go to NDSU?" <== That's a heckuva a lot more accurate.

Can't say I've ever met someone related to UND that has got "huffy" about that statement, it seems to be the one that bothers NDSU folks. Not sure why someone related to UND would be upset about it?

[82SiouxGuy]

Can't say I've ever met someone related to UND that has got "huffy" about that statement, it seems to be the one that bothers NDSU folks. Not sure why someone related to UND would be upset about it?

Actually, most people I know from UND joke about it and use it to get under the skin of NDSU backers. They don't take it seriously.

[tony]

Actually, most people I know from UND joke about it and use it to get under the skin of NDSU backers. They don't take it seriously.

Yeah, I know. I've never seen a farmer or rancher from UND. I'm sure that they exist and that they hold very important positions in the ag industry (like the President of the Grand Forks Chapter of Farmers Anonymous):

"Hi, my name is Chipp and I'm a farmer but only because I inherited it."

"Hi, Chipp."

"I'm realy struggling. My family wants to me to make our vast tracts of land productive but all I want to is SING!"

"We've been there, Chipp. Sing, you empty suit, sing!"

"I'd also like to... DANCE!"

".... er, yeah, let's just stick to the singing for now."

Anyway, why not apply the same standards of irony to Hollister's comments? I bet that he knows that being the "biggest" school in ND is terribly important to UND folks.

Oh yeah. There appears to have been a miscommunication. I never said that UND folks got huffy about the nonsensical statement, "If you want to own the farm, etc." What I meant was that some guys were getting huffy about the NDSU guy saying that NDSU was bigger than UND (which, I'm pretty sure that a reasonable person could agree with) when, easily, the most ridiculous statement in the article was started with the words "If you want to own."

Of course, reasonable people can agree to disagree.

[82SiouxGuy]

Yeah, I know. I've never seen a farmer or rancher from UND. I'm sure that they exist and that they hold very important positions in the ag industry (like the President of the Grand Forks Chapter of Farmers Anonymous):

"Hi, my name is Chipp and I'm a farmer but only because I inherited it."

"Hi, Chipp."

"I'm realy struggling. My family wants to me to make our vast tracts of land productive but all I want to is SING!"

"We've been there, Chipp. Sing, you empty suit, sing!"

"I'd also like to... DANCE!"

".... er, yeah, let's just stick to the singing for now."

Anyway, why not apply the same standards of irony to Hollister's comments? I bet that he knows that being the "biggest" school in ND is terribly important to UND folks.

Oh yeah. There appears to have been a miscommunication. I never said that UND folks got huffy about the nonsensical statement, "If you want to own the farm, etc." What I meant was that some guys were getting huffy about the NDSU guy saying that NDSU was bigger than UND (which, I'm pretty sure that a reasonable person could agree with) when, easily, the most ridiculous statement in the article was started with the words "If you want to own."

Of course, reasonable people can agree to disagree.

It was from a high school newspaper. I didn't bother to go and read the story or comment on it until you jumped in to stick up for NDSU. Then you had to show your bias about full time students and your disregard for online students. God forbid anyone even make a joke about NDSU without you or one of your buddies jumping in "to protect NDSU".

And of course UND doesn't have anyone involved in agriculture. They only have alumni like this:

Gregory R. Page (born 1952 in Bottineau, North Dakota) is the president and CEO of Cargill, Inc. of Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA. He joined Cargill in 1974, and has served in various worldwide posts for the company, including serving as the corporate vice president of Excel Corporation (currently a Cargill-owned business platform), before becoming its CEO. On June 1, 2007, Page succeeded Warren Staley as Chief Executive Officer of Cargill.

Page graduated with a bachelor's degree in economics from the University of North Dakota. He is an initiated member of the Alpha Tau Omega fraternity from the University of North Dakota.

Cargill doesn't have anything to do with agriculture, does it?

[bincitysioux]

Man, Tony, who took a leak in your cheerios this morning?

Yeah, I know. I've never seen a farmer or rancher from UND.

I suppose if you really need to actually "see" one, I could send you a picture of myself.

"Hi, my name is Chipp and I'm a farmer but only because I inherited it."

It's almost like you are implying that the only possible way for a UND grad to pursue a career in agriculture is to either unwittingly or just by dumb luck to have a farm or ranch passed on to them from an older generation. You act as if there is some bulletin board at NDSU's student union posting opportunities for the annual Ag Econ grads to pick and choose which operation they will take over. Sorry, it doesn't work like that.

.......... What I meant was that some guys were getting huffy about the NDSU guy saying that NDSU was bigger than UND (which, I'm pretty sure that a reasonable person could agree with) when, easily, the most ridiculous statement in the article was started with the words "If you want to own."

Nobody was getting huffy about the "whichever school is bigger must be better argument". Some just pointed out what a stupid argument that is. Utah Valley has a larger enrollment than Duke. Does that make UVU better? Apparently so in the eyes of one Northern Cass faculty member. That is all we were saying. Hell, a few posters here even pointed to the great Architecture and Pharmacy programs at NDSU as reason to make a case for which school is better.

I know the "if you want to own the farm............" tag line is what set you off and it gets under the skin of NDSU people, and really that's why we throw it around. That's all. Just in good fun.

But just for good measure, you'll be happy to know that a poorly educated, unproductive, half-assed, land-inheriting farmer like me does in fact have an NDSU grad on the payroll.

[UNDBIZ]

I've never seen a farmer or rancher from UND. I'm sure that they exist and that they hold very important positions in the ag industry (like the President of the Grand Forks Chapter of Farmers Anonymous):

Apparently you've never met a farmer from the red river valley (Grand Forks and Walsh counties in particular). There aren't too many ranches in the red river valley, so I don't know many of them. The only rancher I know was a guy from the Dickinson area I went to UND with.

In my experience, UND and tech college (Northland) people own the farms, but maybe that's only in Grand Forks and Walsh counties. From what I've heard, NDSU people are taught to own the businesses which interact with the farmers (buying and selling chemicals, seed, fertilizer, etc.). Both positions are important and both positions can make a lot of money, so don't take it as a slight.