The Big Sky Concern

[82SiouxGuy]

I've been going back and forth on this issue for as long as you have. I don't want our student athletes to become victims but there's so much more involved than just a name or a conference. I abhore the total and complete control the NC$$ has over their membership (yes, I am aware it is a volunteer membership). They are not our institutional leaders. They are not our State representatives. They are not our National representatives. They are not our lawmakers. Yet, they've taken on the role of political correctness and social justice enforcers. Who gave them that authority. We did but it was under duress. WIthout the NCAA we would not be competing against the best; we would be junior league at best. Unfortunately, if we don't change our name, that may happen.

I don't have the answer. I do know that rolling over and exposing our neck to the NC$$ feels very, very wrong.

The members gave the NCAA that control and that authority. They could also take it away, but they won't. Nothing short of the federal court systm could possibly get the NCAA to back away from their position. UND tried that, and got the settlement of 2007. The choices now are simple. Change the name and be a regular member of the NCAA or accept the santions and damage the UND Athletic Department. Do what is best for the school and the Athletic Department, or do something to make a group of people feel good about themselves. All of this complaining about it being wrong or not fair won't change anything.

[82SiouxGuy]

That is all true. But to me (and me alone) the question becomes...are they still all the same without each other?

Are they the same, no. But to me, and to a lot of people that I talk to, the sum of school and athletic department without sanctions plus being in quality conferences for all sports is better than nickname, school and athletic department under sanctions and not in a conference for most of its sports. It's not even close.

[MafiaMan]

Where is he going to go - toil in the AHL somewhere and uproot his family because of a nickname? He is at the top of college hockey already, its either NHL or down. We all know he isn't going anywhere because of the name, it would be because of a better opportunity.

Lots of AHL coaches have gotten the call-up and done quite well in the NHL...John Stevens, Peter Laviolette, Kevin Dineen, Bruce Boudreau, Claude Noel...and that's just off the top of my head. Saying a move to a coaching position in the AHL would be a downgrade compared to coaching in college isn't necessarily a fact. It depends on what the coach's ultimate goal is.

[UND92,96]

In a way I hope we get kicked out of the Big Sky and get into the Summit instead.....after this fiasco is "finalized"

Except that would basically doom the football program, at least until somebody leaves the MVFC.

[Sioux-cia]

The members gave the NCAA that control and that authority. They could also take it away, but they won't. Nothing short of the federal court systm could possibly get the NCAA to back away from their position. UND tried that, and got the settlement of 2007. The choices now are simple. Change the name and be a regular member of the NCAA or accept the santions and damage the UND Athletic Department. Do what is best for the school and the Athletic Department, or do something to make a group of people feel good about themselves. All of this complaining about it being wrong or not fair won't change anything.

Since when did stating an opinion become complaining? And, why won't what we're doing change anything? Are you so sure of the outcome? Why can't we have an expectation of the 'right thing'? Who is to say the federal court system won't get involved? Who would have thought the people of little ol' North Dakota and a little reservation like Spirit Lake would take it this far?

We're all on the same side. We all want what is best for our school and athletic programs. We just all don't agree that lying prostrate before the NC$$ is the right thing to do.

[iramurphy]

Honest question:

Did North Dakota ever send anyone to Standing Rock that had any real negotiating power? Nothing against the ND State Board of Education but we should've had Dorgan, Hoeven, or Conrad meeting with them. We had three years to get an agreement. Did we even try until it was to late?

Just thinking outside the box:

Sioux County (Fort Yates, ND) is the 7th poorest county in the US. How hard would it have been for UND to offer a $500 scholarship to kids that held a "C" average?

One of a number of things tried. Different Tribal councils treated envoys differently. Some were rude and almost hostile. Other suggestions were to bring coaches and teams to do athletic clinics. Send Professors or professionals to do workshops or work with their schools. Send UND Medical Residents and students to do rotations in the Public Health clinics or hospitals. (I think that has been done and is still an available rotation for UND residents and med students.) I think we are way past that now. We have a petition and we apparently will have a vote and that vote needs to be defeated. The only other option I see is for UND and the SBoHE to refuse to comply based on constitutional grounds and that is a legal dilemma. There are alerady a number of scholarships in place and programming in place for Native American students. The problem is until recently the Legh Jeonottes and activists were spending time and money to convince the NCAA and the rest of the state inclucing those on reservations that any Native kid who ventured upon the UND campus would be hassled and abused. Where are all of those people now? Too many are sitting back and laughing at the problem there were able cause.

Poverty rate: 41.3%

Poverty rate of children under 18: 51.8%

http://money.msn.com...ties-in-america

[iramurphy]

I have said I am for the Fighting Sioux Hockey Team - almost 30 yrs as a season ticket holder & went a lot before that

No Fetch, you are for the Fighting Sioux name. There is nothing about that name that the hockey team needs and it is becoming more evident the threat to our hockey program is as real as the threat to the other programs. UND hockey will no survive as we know it without a stong University and a strong athletic department. Anyone who thinks otherwise has no concept of intercolligiate athletics and the importance of scheduling and the importance of the available academic programming and the college experience. Believe it or not these players interact with other students and University staff and fans. In the past many of them attended FB games, or baseball games or VB or WBB. take all of that away and it lessens the college experience. You my friend are a hockey fan, and a fan of the Fighting Sioux name but you are not a friend of UND hockey nor UND athletics.

[zonadub]

They probably won't believe our new "reality" until the women's hockey team actually plays its "home" playoff games in Fargo ... or more likely if the men's team has to hit the road too if they end up with a home berth. And even then, they'll still probably keep clinging to the moniker and waiting for some vain "salvation" from SL, or Bismarck.

that is assuming, if the Sioux do not win the conference tourney, that they will get an at-large bid.

the NCAA can select whomever they decide.

will the nickname cause them to pass over the Sioux in favor of another school if it is a close call?

[82SiouxGuy]

Since when did stating an opinion become complaining? And, why won't what we're doing change anything? Are you so sure of the outcome? Why can't we have an expectation of the 'right thing'? Who is to say the federal court system won't get involved? Who would have thought the people of little ol' North Dakota and a little reservation like Spirit Lake would take it this far?

We're all on the same side. We all want what is best for our school and athletic programs. We just all don't agree that lying prostrate before the NC$$ is the right thing to do.

Didn't mean to say that you were complaining. There is a lot of that going on and I combined the thought into 1 post.

UND already settled the issue with the NCAA, and that settlement included the SBoHE and the state of North Dakota. Part of that settlement included not being able to sue again unless the other side doesn't live up to the terms of the agreement. Neither UND or the state can sue over this issue again. Spirit Lake has a lawsuit in progress. It seems to be the only chance of a lawsuit succeeding, but most lawyers I've talked with think that the chances are very limited. Plus it won't even get started until 2013 at the earliest and will probably take several years. The Athletic Department could sustain a lot of damage during that time period. That lawsuit will go on whether UND continues to use the nickname right now or not.

As of right now, none of the things done in the last year related to keeping the nickname have helped the University of North Dakota. They just keep dragging out the process and the pain. The NCAA will not back away from their settlement, they won. Thinking that the NCAA will back away is wishful thinking. Hurting UND won't do anything to the NCAA. As the Gambler once said, "You've got to know when to hold them, and know when to fold them. Know when to walk away, and know when to run."

[ScottM]

that is assuming, if the Sioux do not win the conference tourney, that they will get an at-large bid.

the NCAA can select whomever they decide.

will the nickname cause them to pass over the Sioux in favor of another school if it is a close call?

Given the NC$$'s propensity to make examples of people who flout its rules, they probably give the bid and home game to UND against the worst team in history, and then force them to play it on the road.

[iramurphy]

Moderators. Any thought to combing all 6 or 7 blogs into one? Seems that anything to do with the name, petitions, Big Sky, Kelly etc are basically the same subject.

[Fetch]

Ira your right on that last line 107, if they are sniveling sheep

[MafiaMan]

Given the NC$$'s propensity to make examples of people who flout its rules, they probably give the bid and home game to UND against the worst team in history, and then force them to play it on the road.

Kind of like they made examples of Ohio State and Auburn BEFORE they played the national championship football game two years ago? Oh, wait, there were millions to be made (or potentially lost), so we'll fix things after the fact.

If Congress can waste time investigating steroids in baseball, why aren't senators and representatives screaming for an investigation into the NCAA and its tactics?

[ScottM]

If Congress can waste time investigating steroids in baseball, why aren't senators and representatives screaming for an investigation into the NCAA and its tactics?

For that to happen, a Member of Congress has to first raise the issue. Which makes the complete absence of North Dakota's congressional delegation over the past 6-7 years all the more appalling. Remember how quickly the NC$$ backed down from the Members from Florida and Utah when the H&A list came out? And nary a peep from Dorgan, Conrad, Pomeroy or Hoeven ,,, even today, nothing.

If the petitioners were really serious about this issue, they'd be pressing their elected officials in DC rather than turning the issue into some complete three-ring circus (or complete cluster f**k).

[Matt]

Kind of like they made examples of Ohio State and Auburn BEFORE they played the national championship football game two years ago? Oh, wait, there were millions to be made (or potentially lost), so we'll fix things after the fact. If Congress can waste time investigating steroids in baseball, why aren't senators and representatives screaming for an investigation into the NCAA and its tactics?

I invite you to bear the flag in the quest to get a congressional investigation started.

[Cratter]

The official school policy of all three schools does not mention any preference for "NCAA-approved schools with Indian imagery". Check out Iowa AD Gary Barta's quote below...

“We have a policy that came out several years ago indicating that we would not play any university outside of the Big Ten Conference who had a Native American mascot,” says Iowa athletic director Gary Barta.

...unless we can make money from scheduling that opponent, then we'll do it.

Funny how it changes. Wisconsin came out with their policy before the NCAA came out with the H&A abusive list!

[Cratter]

I hope you are just trying to stir the pot.

It is fun.

[Cratter]

Except that would basically doom the football program, at least until somebody leaves the MVFC.

I don't think so. There is an unwritten rule basically that if a team needs a conference it is their duty to take them in.

[tnt]

Did the Big Sky ever want UND, or did they just want them as a package with USD? Why did they accept us in the first place when the nickname was still up in the air? You can say that Faison did a good job getting us in the Big Sky, but I believe we became unwanted right after USD fell through. Did Faison have no inkling to wait for South Dakota to sign, or did he have any conversations with USD officials that they could possibly work together to be in the same league be it the Big Sky or Summit/MVFC. Were all options explored with the MVFC? I guess when you jump the gun on new conferences twice and have the UND fan base excited both times only to realize that things weren't going to be as good as first advertised, it kind of makes one wonder if lessons were learned. You could even add the Spirit Campaign to the list of things that got the fan base excited only to leave fans with a sense of disappointment. Sure, all of these things are good in some form, but when you promise the world and need to backtrack, it certainly makes a person wonder if there isn't something learned along the way. "We get to be in a conference with a current rival"!! Guess not. "We get to be in a conference with Notre Dame"!! Guess not. "We as fans are going to be overwhelmed by an announcement that will outshine the Ralph Engelstad Arena"!! Yes, but nothing that is tangible to the fans that they convinced were going to be unbelievably excited for so they take off work early to meet at the Chester Fritz. Like I said, all things are good, but when you oversell, and undeliver, you would think you would learn from that. I only hope that Faison has a plan or something unseen for getting UND hockey on TV across the country after the plug was pulled on fans that once had access to games and now once again are in the dark after all the positives were not as advertised.

[GeauxSioux]

Did the Big Sky ever want UND, or did they just want them as a package with USD? Why did they accept us in the first place when the nickname was still up in the air? You can say that Faison did a good job getting us in the Big Sky, but I believe we became unwanted right after USD fell through. Did Faison have no inkling to wait for South Dakota to sign, or did he have any conversations with USD officials that they could possibly work together to be in the same league be it the Big Sky or Summit/MVFC. Were all options explored with the MVFC? I guess when you jump the gun on new conferences twice and have the UND fan base excited both times only to realize that things weren't going to be as good as first advertised, it kind of makes one wonder if lessons were learned. You could even add the Spirit Campaign to the list of things that got the fan base excited only to leave fans with a sense of disappointment. Sure, all of these things are good in some form, but when you promise the world and need to backtrack, it certainly makes a person wonder if there isn't something learned along the way. "We get to be in a conference with a current rival"!! Guess not. "We get to be in a conference with Notre Dame"!! Guess not. "We as fans are going to be overwhelmed by an announcement that will outshine the Ralph Engelstad Arena"!! Yes, but nothing that is tangible to the fans that they convinced were going to be unbelievably excited for so they take off work early to meet at the Chester Fritz. Like I said, all things are good, but when you oversell, and undeliver, you would think you would learn from that. I only hope that Faison has a plan or something unseen for getting UND hockey on TV across the country after the plug was pulled on fans that once had access to games and now once again are in the dark after all the positives were not as advertised.

If Faison/Kelley hadn't jumped on the Big Sky invite, UND may still be homeless. USD had a huge exit fee from the Summit and big brother, SDSU, calling the shots, hoping to keep the Summit tournament in Sioux Falls. If USD had taken the Summit/MVFC route before UND accepted the offer, would the Big Sky have said backed away?

[82SiouxGuy]

Did the Big Sky ever want UND, or did they just want them as a package with USD? Why did they accept us in the first place when the nickname was still up in the air? You can say that Faison did a good job getting us in the Big Sky, but I believe we became unwanted right after USD fell through. Did Faison have no inkling to wait for South Dakota to sign, or did he have any conversations with USD officials that they could possibly work together to be in the same league be it the Big Sky or Summit/MVFC. Were all options explored with the MVFC? I guess when you jump the gun on new conferences twice and have the UND fan base excited both times only to realize that things weren't going to be as good as first advertised, it kind of makes one wonder if lessons were learned. You could even add the Spirit Campaign to the list of things that got the fan base excited only to leave fans with a sense of disappointment. Sure, all of these things are good in some form, but when you promise the world and need to backtrack, it certainly makes a person wonder if there isn't something learned along the way. "We get to be in a conference with a current rival"!! Guess not. "We get to be in a conference with Notre Dame"!! Guess not. "We as fans are going to be overwhelmed by an announcement that will outshine the Ralph Engelstad Arena"!! Yes, but nothing that is tangible to the fans that they convinced were going to be unbelievably excited for so they take off work early to meet at the Chester Fritz. Like I said, all things are good, but when you oversell, and undeliver, you would think you would learn from that. I only hope that Faison has a plan or something unseen for getting UND hockey on TV across the country after the plug was pulled on fans that once had access to games and now once again are in the dark after all the positives were not as advertised.

The name wasn't supposed to be up in the air. The SBoHE had announced months earlier that they were retiring the name. The process was working. The official deadline to get approval at the end of November, and Standing Rock was not going to look at the issue. Everyone thought the issue was done until Carlson stuck his nose in the situation a couple of months later.

Did the Big Sky want the pair of UND and USD, probably. By all appearances, everyone thought USD was in on the move to the Big Sky until the South Dakota trustees stepped in. They worked with SDSU and Douple at the Summit to convince the MVFC to take USD. The MVFC wasn't going to take both UND and USD. Getting UND into the Big Sky under all of these circumstances was a great accomplishment.

The rest of it sounds like self-inflicted pain. Notre Dame was never a sure thing. They worked it for a long time, but they went east. The Spirit campaign is a great thing, especially to the people that are working on it. $300 million is a large goal for a University the size of UND, and they are well on the way. Sorry it didn't live up to your expectations. Maybe they should have worded things a little differently, but it was very much worth celebrating.

[tnt]

If Faison/Kelley hadn't jumped on the Big Sky invite, UND may still be homeless. USD had a huge exit fee from the Summit and big brother, SDSU, calling the shots, hoping to keep the Summit tournament in Sioux Falls. If USD had taken the Summit/MVFC route before UND accepted the offer, would the Big Sky have said backed away?

I just question whether they really explored everything with the MVFC. Don't know if being in a league where they don't want you is that desirable. I guess if UND is that undesirable, I wonder why they made the move to begin with. Guess we put one over on the Big Sky though. If anybody has the most egg on their face, it is the powers that be in the Big Sky. They obviously didn't want UND without the package, yet they pulled the trigger without USD's name on the dotted line.

[tnt]

The name wasn't supposed to be up in the air. The SBoHE had announced months earlier that they were retiring the name. The process was working. The official deadline to get approval at the end of November, and Standing Rock was not going to look at the issue. Everyone thought the issue was done until Carlson stuck his nose in the situation a couple of months later.

Did the Big Sky want the pair of UND and USD, probably. By all appearances, everyone thought USD was in on the move to the Big Sky until the South Dakota trustees stepped in. They worked with SDSU and Douple at the Summit to convince the MVFC to take USD. The MVFC wasn't going to take both UND and USD. Getting UND into the Big Sky under all of these circumstances was a great accomplishment.

The rest of it sounds like self-inflicted pain. Notre Dame was never a sure thing. They worked it for a long time, but they went east. The Spirit campaign is a great thing, especially to the people that are working on it. $300 million is a large goal for a University the size of UND, and they are well on the way. Sorry it didn't live up to your expectations. Maybe they should have worded things a little differently, but it was very much worth celebrating.

Don't know that the MVFC wasn't an option. If they would have worked with USD and made clear that the two were a package deal to go to one conference or the other there might have been some movement with the Summit working to secure a few more schools with the possible departure of a few. As far as the Spirit Campaign, I said it was a good thing, but even after people were speculating wildly on new football stadiums and such, they continued with the more awesome than the Ralph talk. I know few people who weren't a little disappointed in the way they went about trying to get people to donate more money.

[82SiouxGuy]

Don't know that the MVFC wasn't an option. If they would have worked with USD and made clear that the two were a package deal to go to one conference or the other there might have been some movement with the Summit working to secure a few more schools with the possible departure of a few. As far as the Spirit Campaign, I said it was a good thing, but even after people were speculating wildly on new football stadiums and such, they continued with the more awesome than the Ralph talk. I know few people who weren't a little disappointed in the way they went about trying to get people to donate more money.

The MVFC stated for years that they didn't want to add anyone. It had nothing to do with whether they liked UND or not, it was a numbers game. They liked having 9 because it was simple, everyone played everyone else and they still had 3 non-conference games open. Plus, as has been discussed before, adding 2 Summit schools would have given control over to them instead of the MVC schools. They didn't want that to happen. The eastern MVFC schools didn't want to travel to the Dakota's twice every year. They were told that they could still only make 1 trip per year by adding USD, that would have been even more difficult if they added UND also. The MVFC option was explored and it wasn't available to UND. Just because you didn't watch Faison make the phone calls doesn't mean that the effort wasn't put in to put UND in the best position possible.

[MAIDEN]

Makes you think...are 14 team leagues "like the Big Sky" sustainable? Not long term. Likely these "Super Sized Mc Leagues" popping up everywhere will realized that a good league is 8-10 team where you play everyone..............just like the NCC