Conference Realignments - Take 2

[The Sicatoka]

21 minutes ago, SiouxVolley said:

It has 8 for mbb, 6 for baseball, and 6 for men's soccer (E Ill is an affiliate).  

Are you < bleeping > kidding me?
Once IUPUI leaves (expected to happen Wednesday) the Summit is one departure away (in baseball or soccer) from losing its MBB autobid? 
And in reality, yeah, IPFW is eyeballing the door (and WIU just might be, and ORU might be). 

Spectacular.
There'd better be a plan. 

[GeauxSioux]

Need Northern Colorado. 

[The Sicatoka]

2 hours ago, SiouxVolley said:

They blew up at me and said Montana can't afford the travel ... 

If it turned out to be the west five and east five, well, Missoula to Omaha is about 140 miles different than Missoula to Flagstaff. < shrug > 

West: Montana, MSU, EWU, Idaho, Denver
East: UND, NDSU, USD, SDSU, Omaha

[SiouxVolley]

1 hour ago, The Sicatoka said:

Are you < bleeping > kidding me?
Once IUPUI leaves (expected to happen Wednesday) the Summit is one departure away (in baseball or soccer) from losing its MBB autobid? 
And in reality, yeah, IPFW is eyeballing the door (and WIU just might be, and ORU might be). 

Spectacular.
There'd better be a plan. 

Football needs at least three more members to be viable as a league.

51 minutes ago, GeauxSioux said:

Need Northern Colorado. 

That wouldn't be enough if IPFW leaves unless NoCo or one of the Dakotas start men's soccer.  If W Illinois leaves too, both those sports of baseball and mens soccer would be down to four members.  No Colorado wouldn't want such a fluid situation.

46 minutes ago, The Sicatoka said:

If it turned out to be the west five and east five, well, Missoula to Omaha is about 140 miles different than Missoula to Flagstaff. < shrug > 

West: Montana, MSU, EWU, Idaho, Denver
East: UND, NDSU, USD, SDSU, Omaha

Its common knowledge on Big Sky boards that flying to Grand Forks causes schools to go nearly broke.  But at the same time, the Griz fans want another Crack at NDSU football, as Fargo is not nearly as far.  Going east is insane for the Griz, unless they fly to Liberty or JMU or NDSU.  Going south is so cheap and easy according to them, which is BS.

The Montana fans absolutely deny that their presidents were the ones that insisted on UND and USD as they insist that Fullerton was the culprit for expansion  Somebody had to insist on us getting in and voting for us.  They seem to believe that a conference reunion with Boise St is inevitable, and the Dakotas are totally irrelevant, except a fb rematch with NDSU.

[The Sicatoka]

43 minutes ago, SiouxVolley said:

Its common knowledge on Big Sky boards that flying to Grand Forks causes schools to go nearly broke.  But at the same time, the Griz fans want another Crack at NDSU football, as Fargo is not nearly as far.  

Missoula to Grand Forks: 1018 miles 
Missoula to Fargo: 951 miles

Those last 67 miles are budget-killers.  

[SiouxVolley]

1 hour ago, The Sicatoka said:

Missoula to Grand Forks: 1018 miles 
Missoula to Fargo: 951 miles

Those last 67 miles are budget-killers.  

By charter, Grand Forks is only 793 air miles, while Fargo is 814.  But don't tell eGriz that!

[The Sicatoka]

19 minutes ago, SiouxVolley said:

By charter, Grand Forks is only 793 miles air miles, while Fargo is 814.  But don't tell eGriz that!

Those last 21 charter air miles are budget-killers.  

Oh wait, it's the wrong way!

Narrative killer! 

[southpaw]

Air Force was looking at the Big Sky when they were trying to get a football only home in the B12. 

The MW is open to affiliate members for football ala Hawaii. It would be tough for AF to lose CSU, Wyo and UNM for basketball but they could be paired with DU as non-FB members in the Summit. 

DU would be much happier with AF over UNC. 

[SiouxVolley]

40 minutes ago, southpaw said:

Air Force was looking at the Big Sky when they were trying to get a football only home in the B12. 

The MW is open to affiliate members for football ala Hawaii. It would be tough for AF to lose CSU, Wyo and UNM for basketball but they could be paired with DU as non-FB members in the Summit. 

DU would be much happier with AF over UNC. 

Could see AFA and BYU doing a fb only deal with the Big12, but Denver and AFA heading to the WCC and BYU staying there.

AFA would hate a small market conference except in single sports.

[North Dakota]

From what I have seen and read from most Summit League members is the loss of IUPUI is actually not that big a deal. They are apparently a bottom feeder and unwilling to spend to be competitive. Addition by subtraction maybe. Now losing IPFW might be more painful but it may allow for better geographic fits for the Summit. Without the Indiana schools the travel would be significantly reduced. Time will tell where it all leads but I don't think it's time to panic just yet. Summit will be back to 8 with the loss of IUPUI but back to 9 with UND. Perhaps they will try to get UMKC back.

[The Sicatoka]

20 hours ago, SiouxVolley said:

At least the Summit is not on watch for its mbb autobid yet.  It has 8 for mbb, 6 for baseball, and 6 for men's soccer (E Ill is an affiliate).  Since UND doesn't have those two other sports, it must start both to keep the bid once IPFW goes. 

 

5 hours ago, North Dakota said:

Now losing IPFW might be more painful but it may allow for better geographic fits for the Summit. 

Seems you missed or failed to understand what SV said: Losing IPFW means losing a baseball and a men's soccer team. That puts each of those at 5 teams in Summit League play. That's not enough conference teams playing the sports to allow for a MBB autobid. 

See NCAA Division I manual sections 31.3.4.5 and 20.02.5 if you don't believe me.  

The key is in 20.02.5.2 (b): 

Quote

The conference shall sponsor a minimum of six men’s sports, one of which shall be men’s basketball. In addition to men’s basketball, the conference shall sponsor football or two other men’s team sports. A minimum of seven members shall sponsor men’s basketball. A minimum of six members shall sponsor five other sports, including football or two additional men’s team sports; 

Lose IPFW and you fall below six in baseball and men's soccer. And thus the MBB autobid goes "poof!". 

[SiouxVolley]

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/college/2017/06/26/iupui-expected-join-horizon-league-week/103218394/

This report says the Horizon wants 14 teams in the future.  Fourteen may be a stretch, but 12 isn't. The two most likely candidates are IPFW and Robert Morris, which both have new arenas coming aboard after this coming season.  The probability IPFW within the year  is gone is extremely high.

The MVC has also stated that they are looking at 12 for the next season.  The two likeliest schools to jump are Murray St and Milwaukee.  If Milwaukee leaves, the Horizon needs another school.  When Murray St leaves, the OVC will be looking, probably at W Ill.  The OVC already knows Jacksonville St is looking real hard at FBS like Liberty, and they have another Olympic option with the Atlantic Sun.  The OVC could pick off W Illinois easily.

Think the Horizon and MVC both want to stash extra teams in their leagues because the Summit won't have more teams in their footprint anymore.  If either of those leagues need teams again, the Summit won't have any more schools to pick off as those leagues have relied on the Summit to backfill.  Omaha, UMKC and ORU could all have interest before this round of realignment is finished.

A league of the Dakotas, Montanas, and Idaho would be incredibly stable, as no other school wants to travel to those remote parts.  The Horizon and MVC look at the Dakotas as a forbidden zone with no people or media.  Same is true for the MWC and Big West with regard to the Montanas.  

A lot of SDSU fans and some NDSU ones believe that the Summit is safe, as who doesn't want to go to Sioux Falls, Brookings, Vermillion, and Fargo for games.  A schedule like that defeats the purpose of DI, bring notoriety and recruit students, for most Midwest schools.

IUPUI and IPFW have been begging the Horizon for a spot ever since they went DI.  They effectively hate the Summit and look on it as a conference that is holding them back from connecting with fans and prospective students.  And their right.  When Valpo and Oakland finally left the Summit, there was an Hallelujah chorus springing from their campuses for a year.  IPFW considered dropping from DI nearly a year ago.  With IUPUI gone, that drumbeat will get louder if they are stuck in the Summit longer with no real rivals.

[SiouxVolley]

For some reason, Idaho knew the Montanas were thinking about leaving the Big Sky according to their Big Sky acceptance contract.   Montana fans steadfastly deny this, but Presidents of Universities know a lot more about potential conference movements than fans.  Idaho's President has actually had earnest conversations with the Montana's Presidents at a level that fans never get to hear.

Kennedy is too tuned in to knowlingly step in a pasture cow pie by joining a Slummit that is flailing.  Something big is up.

[noquestion]

3 hours ago, SiouxVolley said:

For some reason, Idaho knew the Montanas were thinking about leaving the Big Sky according to their Big Sky acceptance contract.   Montana fans steadfastly deny this, but Presidents of Universities know a lot more about potential conference movements than fans.  Idaho's President has actually had earnest conversations with the Montana's Presidents at a level that fans never get to hear.

Kennedy is too tuned in to knowlingly step in a pasture cow pie by joining a Slummit that is flailing.  Something big is up.

Do you have a link to the contract?  If fans never get to hear the presidents conversations.  How do you know what was discussed?

[SiouxVolley]

30 minutes ago, noquestion said:

Do you have a link to the contract?  If fans never get to hear the presidents conversations.  How do you know what was discussed?

Thought I posted it before with a link.  That link expired.  Got it through an FOIA request to the U of Idaho.

Have talked with key people years before U of South Alabama started football and went FBS.  They talked about the steps needed to go FBS.   Knew them through our church. Those same people never gave insight to the media into their FBS dreams for USA until the plans were in action.  The previous President was steadfastly opposed, but as soon as a new one got installed, things started happening towards that goal, like a football study, more women's sports, having a new bball facility, more practice fields, better indoor facilities.  They didn't have to be concerned for a 15k facility as they could use the city's 40k stadium, but there is plans now for an on campus stadium.

In UND's case, we really need to cut expensive sports, which we did.

[SiouxVolley]

Big Sky requires one year notice for Olympic Sports for no exit fee.

Big Sky requires two years notice for Football, then no exit fee.

UND gave three years notice for fb, as we wouldn't be in the MVFC until 2020.

An probable explanation for the discrepancy ( only need two years, not three):

If the Montanas, Idaho, and EWU give their notice in the coming year ending July 1st 2018, their football exit date will be the same as UND.  NDSU, SDSU, and USD might need to pay MVFC exit fees, but that's their problem.  The Summit will need to sponsor football by 2020, or the Summit's mbb autobid and NCAA conference payments are likely dead.

UND IMHO will never see the MVFC, but something better.

[noquestion]

25 minutes ago, SiouxVolley said:

Thought I posted it before with a link.  That link expired.  Got it through an FOIA request to the U of Idaho.

Have talked with key people years before U of South Alabama started football and went FBS.  They talked about the steps needed to go FBS.   Knew them through our church. Those same people never gave insight to the media into their FBS dreams for USA until the plans were in action.  The previous President was steadfastly opposed, but as soon as a new one got installed, things started happening towards that goal, like a football study, more women's sports, having a new bball facility, more practice fields, better indoor facilities.  They didn't have to be concerned for a 15k facility as they could use the city's 40k stadium, but there is plans now for an on campus stadium.

In UND's case, we really need to cut expensive sports, which we did.

Basically you have no proof of the contract or what the Idaho president has or hasn't discussed with the Montana presidents.  Correct?

[SiouxVolley]

12 minutes ago, noquestion said:

Basically you have no proof of the contract or what the Idaho president has or hasn't discussed with the Montana presidents.  Correct?

It doesn't take a brain surgeon to realize that Idaho needs seven more schools to form an FBS capable conference.  Can state confidently that Idaho's President has had those conversations, or he's not doing his job and would be fired otherwise.  

Gave contract proof but the onus is on you to find it.  Know that that contract was on the Sun Belt board, where for the first time I revealed that Idaho and NMSU would be given notice two years after they became affiliates if they would get extended beyond four years.  The Sun Belt board went wild after I linked it because they didn't know the contract specifics before.

[southpaw]

39 minutes ago, SiouxVolley said:

Big Sky requires one year notice for Olympic Sports for no exit fee.

Big Sky requires two years notice for Football, then no exit fee.

UND gave three years notice for fb, as we wouldn't be in the MVFC until 2020.

An probable explanation for the discrepancy ( only need two years, not three):

If the Montanas, Idaho, and EWU give their notice in the coming year ending July 1st 2018, their football exit date will be the same as UND.  NDSU, SDSU, and USD might need to pay MVFC exit fees, but that's their problem.  The Summit will need to sponsor football by 2020, or the Summit's mbb autobid and NCAA conference payments are likely dead.

UND IMHO will never see the MVFC, but something better.

So why didn't UND wait and announce at the same time as the other schools?

[homer]

24 minutes ago, noquestion said:

Basically you have no proof of the contract or what the Idaho president has or hasn't discussed with the Montana presidents.  Correct?

This is one time I will defend SiouxVolley as he did post the contract a few years back when Idaho joined the conference.  Specifically stated that Idaho was not tied to the conference if UND or either Montana team left the conference.  UND was barely a member at that time.  

[SWSiouxMN]

The dream:  Montana and MSU

the likely candidates:  UMKC UNC

Wild-card: NMSU

Just say no: GCU

[SiouxVolley]

37 minutes ago, southpaw said:

So why didn't UND wait and announce at the same time as the other schools?

UND has a vote if ORU or Omaha raise a stink.

UND can grease the skids for the northern Big Sky - UM, MSU, UI and EWU.

It's how conference politics are played.

[SiouxVolley]

43 minutes ago, homer said:

This is one time I will defend SiouxVolley as he did post the contract a few years back when Idaho joined the conference.  Specifically stated that Idaho was not tied to the conference if UND or either Montana team left the conference.  UND was barely a member at that time.  

And nobody believes the Montanas will leave the Big Sky except the Idaho President and AD.  Really is a major revelation, as most think the Montanas are permanent fixtures in the BSC, but Idaho doesn't think that as they know differently.

The Montanas have wanted the Dakotas in the Sky since the 60s, but they were always outvoted.  Now for the first time, Idaho needs us if we all agree to go FBS, so they will agree with the Montanas.  EWU will go where ever those other three go as remaining in the Sky will be a disaster, as those three schools have by far the most interest in E Wash.+

[jdub27]

1 hour ago, SiouxVolley said:

Big Sky requires one year notice for Olympic Sports for no exit fee.

Big Sky requires two years notice for Football, then no exit fee.

UND gave three years notice for fb, as we wouldn't be in the MVFC until 2020.

An probable explanation for the discrepancy ( only need two years, not three):

If the Montanas, Idaho, and EWU give their notice in the coming year ending July 1st 2018, their football exit date will be the same as UND.  NDSU, SDSU, and USD might need to pay MVFC exit fees, but that's their problem.  The Summit will need to sponsor football by 2020, or the Summit's mbb autobid and NCAA conference payments are likely dead.

UND IMHO will never see the MVFC, but something better.

It wasn't UND's choice to wait that long to join the MVFC, it was the MVFC.  UND wanted to join both at the same time but for various reasons, they were denied. FOIA emails published by the Herald verify this ss UND was pushing to get in sooner. The Big Sky threw UND a lifeline by giving them a two year scheduling alliance.

I've never seen a different requirements for different sports, can you provide a link to that? UND will not technically be a member of the Big Sky for football next year, so I'm pretty sure your info is wrong.

The Big Sky had a right to charge an exit fee but since UND acted in good faith and kept them in the loop, it was waived as their entry contract stated it would be. 

[SiouxVolley]

52 minutes ago, jdub27 said:

It wasn't UND's choice to wait that long to join the MVFC, it was the MVFC.  UND wanted to join both at the same time but for various reasons, they were denied. FOIA emails published by the Herald verify this ss UND was pushing to get in sooner. The Big Sky threw UND a lifeline by giving them a two year scheduling alliance.

I've never seen a different requirements for different sports, can you provide a link to that? UND will not technically be a member of the Big Sky for football next year, so I'm pretty sure your info is wrong.

The Big Sky had a right to charge an exit fee but since UND acted in good faith and kept them in the loop, it was waived as their entry contract stated it would be. 

A CSNBBS poster had the bylaws and posted the one year and two year exit fee waived parts.

Most posters there think the Summit is semi-doomed, but they don't have a clue about the NoDak-Montana history wanting the same conference.  Minnesota schools didn't want to be DI and absolutely would not consider the Montanas.  Montanas like Idaho back and for the first time they agree about the Dakotas.  The Sac St, Port St, and Northridge St expansion in the 90's after Idaho, Boise St and Nevada left has been an unmitigated disaster and 20 years later they still don't have mbb facilities as promised.  Chasing big media markets with sucky teams doesn't work.

Academics has always been a main driver for really stable conferences.  That's what Presidents want, a flagship to be associated with other flagships, not commuter schools.  Like schools attract like schools.