Big Sky or Summit/Valley?

[Blue]

Be honest, which would you REALLY be in?

The local media in my area are hammering UND for the move and were hammering USD and said they hoped USD was bluffing just to get the MVFC's attention. I told them that the UND fanbase is happy w/ the move and they told me that the fanbase is just basically pretending to be happy and making the best of their situation.

I understand you're first off just happy to be in a conference, period. Interested to hear some of your thoughts on the Big Sky versus the Summit/Valley.

[Csonked Out]

Be honest, which would you REALLY be in?

The local media in my area are hammering UND for the move and were hammering USD and said they hoped USD was bluffing just to get the MVFC's attention. I told them that the UND fanbase is happy w/ the move and they told me that the fanbase is just basically pretending to be happy and making the best of their situation.

I understand you're first off just happy to be in a conference, period. Interested to hear some of your thoughts on the Big Sky versus the Summit/Valley.

I never had any interest in being in the same conference as the XDSU's, to me part of the perk of moving up was to separate ourselves from the old NCC teams. I would much rather play Montana and Montana St. as opposed to NDSU and SDSU twice a year in most sports and every year in football. It is still possible to have a rivalry without being in the same conference ( see Florida St. and Florida). Furthermore NDSU was begging to get into the conference when they got rejected, my question is what has changed these last 6 years to all of the sudden make it a second class conference to some Bison fans?

UND was the first university in the Dakotas' to have athletic prominence on a national scale, we have the largest athletic budget in the Dakotas, and have the highest ranking academics in the Dakotas. If you ask me, I am quite happy with the direction of the university.

[dmksioux]

Be honest, which would you REALLY be in?

The local media in my area are hammering UND for the move and were hammering USD and said they hoped USD was bluffing just to get the MVFC's attention. I told them that the UND fanbase is happy w/ the move and they told me that the fanbase is just basically pretending to be happy and making the best of their situation.

I understand you're first off just happy to be in a conference, period. Interested to hear some of your thoughts on the Big Sky versus the Summit/Valley.

If you're interested in how Sioux fans feel about being in the Big Sky, I would recommend reading this thread:

For those that post on this board, I would say the majority are happy to be in the Big Sky...especially since Montana has decided to stay. There are many other reasons (peer instituions, Alumni fan base, television opportunities, etc) that people on here will cite as reasons they prefer the Big Sky. There are a few fans here that would like to see us in the Summit/MVFC...I was one of them. The Big Sky conference is beginning to "grow" on me however. It would be nice to be in a conference with the other Dakota schools, however, I am beginning to believe the Big Sky has a better future and offers more potential benefits for UND than what the Summit would have to offer.

[iramurphy]

Big Sky is a great conference. That is the conference UND, NDSU, USD, and SDSU should have joined back when we also should all have gove D1AA. We are going to a conference with trips to great spots in Montana, California, Oregon, Arizona, Colorado and Utah. Conference has great tradition and has had success in FB and BB. Nothing wrong wtith Summit but their FB conference was more attractive. Wouldn't be surprised in the other Dakota teams make the move in the future. The "old NCC' was a great conference and had great success.

I think Sioux fans are very happy with the conference. Should be attractive for recruiting. We need to move it up to the next level. $$$ support, fans in the stands, marketing, media coverage, entertainment at events and connection with the students, GF community and region.

Talked to John Q Paulsen last week. He made sure he told me he didn't think UND was any good but when I told him he needed to get the rivalry going again he agreed and said he had been trying but Taylor and Bohl don't want to. Too bad. They would likely have had the upper hand lately (especially this year). They might have made a dent on the big advantage UND has over them over the years in FB. If they wait too long it will be back to the norm with UND dominating again.

[dakota fairways]

I remember being very disappointed when NDSU and SDSU were turned down for the Big Sky back in 2004. I don't think it was just me, but a general feeling across the whole region. The Big Sky was the destination conference everyone wanted for D-I and now it looked like that door was closed and would not open for the Sioux when the time came for UND to find a D-I conference home. The Big Sky is the golden ring that all four schools wanted when they moved to D-I, and UND being the only one who ultimately got the invitation makes the move even better.

The perception of the Mid-Con was raised considerably when NDSU & SDSU joined them. The irony of that is that D-II upgrades raised the way the conference was looked at before they had even been D-I long enough to qualify for the post season. Cudos to the SU's for doing that for the Summit, but the fact remains that D-II schools were an upgrade for an existing D-I conference. As for the MVFC, it is a solid conference that has a very stable history as the Gateway, maybe even better than the Big Sky, since Big Sky schools tend to move up to the WAC, but IMHO the Big Sky has more recognition and esteem than the MVFC. On top of that, the Big Sky offers opportunities to develop rivalries with the same schools across football and basketball, that consistency will also help fan interest.

Recruiting athletes to play in Big Sky destinations should be easier than Summit/MVFC locations. There are no Summit or MVFC schools in Minnesota or Wisconsin, so there should not be a disadvantage for the Sioux to recruit in the traditional Sioux recruiting grounds. Then add the western US to the UND recruiting footprint and things should only get better. As for the argument that families will not be able to follow their student athletes in the Big Sky, especially in the winter, would you rather go watch your son/daughter in a warm weather or ski destination; or in Detroit, Kansas City or Tulsa?

The size of the conference may be an issue, but I do not think it is a disqualifier, either. The Big Sky is already too spread out to be a bus trip conference, as is the Great West. Other than the old NCC schools, the Summit/MVFC is not a bus conference for UND either. Whether you are traveling 5 hours by bus or by plane, the difference in the time on the road is probably not significant. The Sioux can still schedule out of conference games with NDSU, SDSU, USD and even Northern Iowa. This may be a blessing in disguise, since OOC games may not have to be scheduled against Stony Brook or Northeastern State. OOC games will have more fan appeal against the Dakota schools and potential rivalries in the Big Sky are very appealing.

So, a long winded answer to your question, but yes, IMHO the Big Sky move for UND is indeed a really good thing and it is even better when a school like Montana chooses to remain in the Big Sky. I would rather see Montana, Montana State, Idaho State, et al on the schedule every year than South, East, West Illinois on one schedule and Oakland, IUPUI, IPFW on another. NDSU, SDSU, USD can still be scheduled as OOC games, if it works out, and it more than likely will as the athletic departments of all the schools get an opportunity to look forward and plan for upcoming seasons.

[Ole in MSP]

Big Sky is a great conference. That is the conference UND, NDSU, USD, and SDSU should have joined back when we also should all have gove D1AA. We are going to a conference with trips to great spots in Montana, California, Oregon, Arizona, Colorado and Utah. Conference has great tradition and has had success in FB and BB. Nothing wrong wtith Summit but their FB conference was more attractive. Wouldn't be surprised in the other Dakota teams make the move in the future. The "old NCC' was a great conference and had great success.

I think Sioux fans are very happy with the conference. Should be attractive for recruiting. We need to move it up to the next level. $$$ support, fans in the stands, marketing, media coverage, entertainment at events and connection with the students, GF community and region.

Talked to John Q Paulsen last week. He made sure he told me he didn't think UND was any good but when I told him he needed to get the rivalry going again he agreed and said he had been trying but Taylor and Bohl don't want to. Too bad. They would likely have had the upper hand lately (especially this year). They might have made a dent on the big advantage UND has over them over the years in FB. If they wait too long it will be back to the norm with UND dominating again.

First, I am a Sioux fan, but here is how I see this. I don't know about UND ever dominating again, but in fact as time goes on, "the game" would get more important than ever as both teams being in different conferences may find the race for the playoffs more of a factor. In all likelihood NDSU would have beaten UND this year and probably the last several and would have been a counter win. As we go forward, the risk of a loss by one team to the other with playoff implications increases dramatically. Imagine a 6-3 or 6-4 record going into or aside from a rivalry game like this which could be a season breaker or maker for either team. As time goes on NDSU has even less to gain and more to lose by playing as UND gains playoff eligibility and hopefully better team play. The best time for NDSU to play UND may have passed, but as I see it the game gets less likely as time goes on.

[iramurphy]

First, I am a Sioux fan, but here is how I see this. I don't know about UND ever dominating again, but in fact as time goes on, "the game" would get more important than ever as both teams being in different conferences may find the race for the playoffs more of a factor. In all likelihood NDSU would have beaten UND this year and probably the last several and would have been a counter win. As we go forward, the risk of a loss by one team to the other with playoff implications increases dramatically. Imagine a 6-3 or 6-4 record going into or aside from a rivalry game like this which could be a season breaker or maker for either team. As time goes on NDSU has even less to gain and more to lose by playing as UND gains playoff eligibility and hopefully better team play. The best time for NDSU to play UND may have passed, but as I see it the game gets less likely as time goes on.

Your first line should have read, "I don't know about NDSU ever dominating again". (UND won 10 of the last 13 games. They both had runs of 12 straight wins at different times, but UND holds a big advantage in this storied rivalry).

Having said that, I forgot to mention Idaho as another great destination for games. In the 1970's we flew to every game with the exception of the NDSU game. That included the South Dakota Schools, Northern Iowa, Morningside, Augie and our game against the Gophers. They were always charters and usually Turbo-Props. We flew in the AM of the game and home after the game. That was a big recruiting plus. We seldom missed school. We had extended trips to UNLV and for the Camilia Bowl. I can't remember if the Arkansas State game was an over night. As the Turbo props were taken out of service by the airlines UND started bussing. Flying is preferable.

Big Sky was always the goal if we finally moved up. Missouri Valley is a good FB conference. Big Sky is every bit as good and I think top to bottom more attractive. UNI, NDSU, SI, Youngstown, etc are all good FB schools. Big Sky for all other sports is much better. It was a good move at the time for NDSU and if they are happy there they enhance both conferences as do USD and SDSU.

UND NDSU rivalry will resume. Taylor is starting to act like an owner with post game interviews and comments etc.. Really needs to understand some leadership concepts. He does not need to be hanging out on the sidelines and jumping around with the coaches and players. When they lose he can give suppoortive comments otherwise he is starting to remind me of Bunning. Taylow is a roadblock to the game resuming. Their new president is a sharp guy and at some point in time the Governor will give them the word to get this game back on the schedules. It will happen, not sure when.

[Goon]

Taylor is a roadblock to the game resuming. Their new president is a sharp guy and at some point in time the Governor will give them the word to get this game back on the schedules. It will happen, not sure when.

The elected officials have no business gettting involved in this issue.

[82SiouxGuy]

The elected officials have no business gettting involved in this issue.

You're fooling yourself if you don't believe that officials like the governor don't get involved in situations like this. We definitely don't want the legislature involved on any kind of an official basis. Things get done behind the scenes. The governor or someone else will start putting pressure on both sides to make something happen. Too many people across the state want it to happen. So it will and the UND-NDSU rivalry will get restarted.

[Goon]

You're fooling yourself if you don't believe that officials like the governor don't get involved in situations like this. We definitely don't want the legislature involved on any kind of an official basis. Things get done behind the scenes. The governor or someone else will start putting pressure on both sides to make something happen. Too many people across the state want it to happen. So it will and the UND-NDSU rivalry will get restarted.

What is the Legislature going to do? If you two schools don't play we are going to fire the current AD's? I mean seriously, don't we have more pressing concerns to worry about than who plays in a college football game. The last bill that went before the legislature put forth by Corey Mock was defeated.

Rep. Corey Mock, D-Grand Forks, sponsored a bill in the 2009 session calling for the teams to play football every year. It was overwhelmingly rejected by lawmakers after NDSU officials said the game would resume sooner rather than later. Now Mock is wondering why nothing has been scheduled and says he might bring it up again.

"If I were to go about this with other legislators, I think it would probably be in the form of a resolution, if for nothing else to get both players into the room to answer the question," Mock said. "'Two years ago you said you were working on it. Why is that not happening?'"

Rep. Mike Schatz, R-New England, said he would support further discussion about the game.

"I think the problem the first time was people thought we were micromanaging the universities with trying to pass a bill," Schatz said. "I think a resolution would be a great idea."

The schools haven't played football since the 2003 season, after NDSU started its shift to Division I and UND decided it was staying in Division II. UND later changed its mind and is currently in the third year of its Division I transition. The school will begin league play in the Big Sky for the 2012-13 season.

[read the whole article here]

[FSSD]

Just a reminder to "Blue" that the deal for UND was Big Sky or Summit/Indy football. Given those two options - I say go Big Sky and don't look back. Now on to your question about comparing Big Sky to Summit/Valley. I think the competition levels in Football and Basketball are very similar. So, for me I like the Big Sky over Summit/Valley because:

Plus:

- Big Sky is a destination FCS Level conference

Schools leaving the Big Sky go BCS. The Summit is not viewed as the final home for many of its members - note: I am not saying the Summit is a bad conference.

- Big Sky has direct control over membership

The primary draw back with the Summit/Valley is just that - the Summit and Valley FC are hooked at the hip. As we saw with UND what might be good for the Summit might not be viewed that way for the Valley FC. So, you have this strange relationship with the MVFC calling the shots for the Summit and member schools are OK with that because they have this long term dream of Valley/Valley FC. It will be interesting to see how the leadership of these two groups work together going forward. The recent conference realignment game is shaking out in the west right now.. but the east and south are next.

- In general, I look to the west...

I am not sure why but my entire life, my family and I have always looked west. I just don't have an interest in anything in the eastern part of the US. But, I would look into going West for a fall road trips to:

Portland, Pacific Coast (Poly and Davis), Montana, Idaho or Washington areas.

Minus:

- Well, I doubled my FSC giving this year and I will look into doubling again next year.

- No direct renewal of games with SUs, but at this point I am not sure how execited I am with those games.

[star2city]

The elected officials have no business gettting involved in this issue.

You've got it backwards. Government has every right to get involved in this issue: they are the owners.

The issue is if the non-elected parties involved (ADs and Presidents) are stupid enough to continue to defy the will of the people and not to get the issue resolved, they deserve what is coming.

I'm not advocating the legislature getting involved, but it is their right and responsibility to supply oversight to government institutions. Similar situations have been resolved by the governor or legislature in a number of states.

Elected officials got involved with the Potts / Chapman dispute. Potts got fired in an act that disgraced the whole state.

[Ole in MSP]

Your first line should have read, "I don't know about NDSU ever dominating again". (UND won 10 of the last 13 games. They both had runs of 12 straight wins at different times, but UND holds a big advantage in this storied rivalry).

Having said that, I forgot to mention Idaho as another great destination for games. In the 1970's we flew to every game with the exception of the NDSU game. That included the South Dakota Schools, Northern Iowa, Morningside, Augie and our game against the Gophers. They were always charters and usually Turbo-Props. We flew in the AM of the game and home after the game. That was a big recruiting plus. We seldom missed school. We had extended trips to UNLV and for the Camilia Bowl. I can't remember if the Arkansas State game was an over night. As the Turbo props were taken out of service by the airlines UND started bussing. Flying is preferable.

Big Sky was always the goal if we finally moved up. Missouri Valley is a good FB conference. Big Sky is every bit as good and I think top to bottom more attractive. UNI, NDSU, SI, Youngstown, etc are all good FB schools. Big Sky for all other sports is much better. It was a good move at the time for NDSU and if they are happy there they enhance both conferences as do USD and SDSU.

UND NDSU rivalry will resume. Taylor is starting to act like an owner with post game interviews and comments etc.. Really needs to understand some leadership concepts. He does not need to be hanging out on the sidelines and jumping around with the coaches and players. When they lose he can give suppoortive comments otherwise he is starting to remind me of Bunning. Taylow is a roadblock to the game resuming. Their new president is a sharp guy and at some point in time the Governor will give them the word to get this game back on the schedules. It will happen, not sure when.

IRA, I do not disagree with you. I was trying to make the point that as UND becomes playoff eligible their quality of play likely will improve and in addition to the game being BIG because of the rivalry, it will become bigger because of any playoff implications should one or both of the two teams records be "on the bubble" as happened this year. As a result I think NDSU will be more reluctant, not less, to play UND as the stakes get higher. That was the case when both were in DII also, but now the stage becomes national and the egos more impacted. I'd like to see them play, but the win pressure goes up too.

[darell1976]

I don't care what conference we are in as long as they renew the UND-NDSU rivalry. Iowa plays Iowa State every year and they are in separate conferences, same with Florida-Florida St.

[Ranger]

As long as public/tax payer dollars are involved, appointed and elected officials (overseers and appropriators) will be involved in some matters. It's in the best interest of both schools to make the deal, or someone else (Bismarck) will make it for them.

[82SiouxGuy]

What is the Legislature going to do? If you two schools don't play we are going to fire the current AD's? I mean seriously, don't we have more pressing concerns to worry about than who plays in a college football game. The last bill that went before the legislature put forth by Corey Mock was defeated.

In my post I clearly said that we don't want the Legislature involved on an official level (try reading it before answering it). But as others have noted, the elected officials are involved. Think of state government as a corporation. The governor is the CEO, citizens are the stockholders. Higher education is one department, and it reports to the CEO (governor). So if the governor wants to make a call, or say something while he is on a site visit, he is going to do it. It is the responsibility of the governor to do what is best for the citizens of the state. If he feels that it is best to get those 2 schools competing against each other in football then he is going to put on some pressure to get that done. Other elected officials are also capable of putting on subtle or unofficial pressure.

[Goon]

In my post I clearly said that we don't want the Legislature involved on an official level (try reading it before answering it). But as others have noted, the elected officials are involved. Think of state government as a corporation. The governor is the CEO, citizens are the stockholders. Higher education is one department, and it reports to the CEO (governor). So if the governor wants to make a call, or say something while he is on a site visit, he is going to do it. It is the responsibility of the governor to do what is best for the citizens of the state. If he feels that it is best to get those 2 schools competing against each other in football then he is going to put on some pressure to get that done. Other elected officials are also capable of putting on subtle or unofficial pressure.

I would be surprised if the new North Dakota Governor Jack Dalrymple gets involved in this process. Also, in a way I kind of blame Roger Thomas for the Rivalry not being held anymore, if we had played the Bison when they were going through the transition to Division I we might not be having this discussion now. Don't get me wrong I miss the Bison vs Sioux football games and the fight for the Nickle trophy.

[Goon]

The issue is if the non-elected parties involved (ADs and Presidents) are stupid enough to continue to defy the will of the people and not to get the issue resolved, they deserve what is coming.

Has anyone taken a poll on this matter?

[iramurphy]

The elected officials have no business gettting involved in this issue.

I agree, but they also need contributions and votes. Somewhere along the line the right people will tell both sides to grow up and resume the game. If John Q. who has been huge in the last 10yrs for NDSU doesn't get them to resume the game, it may take the Gov. or the big donors. The schools should be able to figure this one out but if there is enough political pressure Taylor et all will be reminded they work for someone and that someone will tell them how it is going to be. The politicians should have more important things but it won't be the first time they get involved with stuff they shouldn't be involved in.

[Goon]

it may take the Gov. or the big donors.

Now that might get them moving.... Money talks.

[iramurphy]

IRA, I do not disagree with you. I was trying to make the point that as UND becomes playoff eligible their quality of play likely will improve and in addition to the game being BIG because of the rivalry, it will become bigger because of any playoff implications should one or both of the two teams records be "on the bubble" as happened this year. As a result I think NDSU will be more reluctant, not less, to play UND as the stakes get higher. That was the case when both were in DII also, but now the stage becomes national and the egos more impacted. I'd like to see them play, but the win pressure goes up too.

Good point, but I think they will resume regular season play within the next 5 years.

[iramurphy]

I would be surprised if the new North Dakota Governor Jack Dalrymple gets involved in this process. Also, in a way I kind of blame Roger Thomas for the Rivalry not being held anymore, if we had played the Bison when they were going through the transition to Division I we might not be having this discussion now. Don't get me wrong I miss the Bison vs Sioux football games and the fight for the Nickle trophy.

The way the point system worked for D II UND wouldn't have made the playoffs had they played NDSU those first years. We should have still played them in all other sports.

[Hansel]

The way the point system worked for D II UND wouldn't have made the playoffs had they played NDSU those first years. We should have still played them in all other sports.

That is false- the point system was changed before NDSU's first season as a DI school

[RD17]

That is false- the point system was changed before NDSU's first season as a DI school

No it wasn't... the point system was in place through the 2005 season. UND was a five seed in the region in 2004 and a four seed in 2005 and would have missed the playoffs both years if they had played NDSU.

2006 was the year it was changed so that results against opponents outside of D-II were essentially meaningless.

[homer]

That is false- the point system was changed before NDSU's first season as a DI school

It was changed the year UND went down and beat UNI. That wasn't ndsu's first season as a D1 school.