What's Wrong with Fighting Sioux

[GeauxSioux]

Kelly McParland: Battle over hockey crest invents insults where there aren't any

So here's where I'm confused. What, exactly, is hostile and abusive about the term "Fighting Sioux"? Or the crest, which strikes me as pretty cool. If the team was named the "Snivelling Cowardly Sioux" or "Dirty Murderous Sioux Killers", I could see the point. Ditto if the crest depicted a native in an unflattering, stereotypicallight. But it doesn't. The warrior on the crest is a strong, dynamic-looking figure. If you called the team the Fighting Canadians and the crest pictured a Canadian looking even half as impressive, I doubt anyone up here would complain. It would be an improvement over our current image in the U.S., which, according to Stephen Colbert, is as a bunch of "syrup-sucking iceholes".

A question that begs to be answered honestly.

[Oxbow6]

A question that begs to be answered honestly.

Good luck with that!

[dmksioux]

Wasn't really sure which thread to put this in but felt this was good as any. Did any of you catch the Florida State vs. West Virginia game yesterday? Prior to the game, Coach Bowden took part in the "Seminole Tradition" invovling the flaming spear.

http://ballhype.com/video/bobby-bowden-fsu...ore-gator-bowl/

[LB#11]

Wasn't really sure which thread to put this in but felt this was good as any. Did any of you catch the Florida State vs. West Virginia game yesterday? Prior to the game, Coach Bowden took part in the "Seminole Tradition" invovling the flaming spear.

http://ballhype.com/video/bobby-bowden-fsu...ore-gator-bowl/

I think it's kind of funny when people say that Florida State got permission from the tribes. We all know they were bought off. To their credit, Florida State responded right away after the NCAA put forth their new rules in 2005. There were some very powerful people(Governor Jeb Bush & many others) that did not want to lose the Seminole name, I wish we(Sioux nickname supporters) had some help from our political leaders.

[the green team]

I've followed Fla St. for a long time and i am not aware of this buying off the tribe as many like to state from time to time. I know I have stated this before in previous topics. The Seminole tribe approached the state legislature, many many years ago, in which they got the legislature to draw up a resolution that the name would always remain Seminoles at FSU. I've never heard any stories or seen any evidence in which any dollars were exchanged in return for accteptance of the name.

[thecircus]

I've followed Fla St. for a long time and i am not aware of this buying off the tribe as many like to state from time to time. I know I have stated this before in previous topics. The Seminole tribe approached the state legislature, many many years ago, in which they got the legislature to draw up a resolution that the name would always remain Seminoles at FSU. I've never heard any stories or seen any evidence in which any dollars were exchanged in return for accteptance of the name.

I've often heard that the Seminole tribe shares in merchandise sales by some sort of percentage. Any truth to this?

[the green team]

No! There is no evidence of that.

[82SiouxGuy]

No! There is no evidence of that.

I have heard the same thing as you, the Seminole tribe didn't receive any payoff for the rights to the name. I remember reading an article that was written around the time of the NCAA decree. An attorney that worked with the tribe said that no money changed hands. I have not been able to find that article the last couple of times I searched for it.

[82SiouxGuy]

I think it's kind of funny when people say that Florida State got permission from the tribes. We all know they were bought off. To their credit, Florida State responded right away after the NCAA put forth their new rules in 2005. There were some very powerful people(Governor Jeb Bush & many others) that did not want to lose the Seminole name, I wish we(Sioux nickname supporters) had some help from our political leaders.

UND has faced 2 issues that I don't think Florida State and some other schools have faced in this nickname debate. The issues are somewhat related. The first issue is the level of activism by tribe members. Native American activism has been much more active and much stronger in this region than in many other parts of the country. While African Americans were fighting for their rights in the South and in other parts of the country, NAs were starting to fight for theirs in this part of the country. All you have to do is look at people like Russell Means, Clyde Bellecourt and the American Indian Movement (AIM). (I believe that Means is Oglala Sioux and Bellecourt is from the White Earth Ojibwa tribe.) AIM was started in the Minneapolis area during the late 1960s and spread around the country. It eventually split in 2, but 1 faction is still headquartered in Minneapolis. AIM took over Alcatraz, Mount Rushmore, the Mayflower II, the Bureau of Indian Affairs building in Washington, DC and Wounded Knee in separate protests between 1969 and 1973 along with many other actions. AIM has always been strong in this region. Native Americans haven't been as organized or as strong in protesting in some other parts of the country.

I also believe that UND did too little in tribal relations. They have done some great things with programs aimed to help with Native American issues. But I don't think that they did enough with actually making personal contacts with tribal leaders and trying to work with them. That goes back to at least Tom Clifford and maybe further. With AIM and other groups out working with the tribes, UND should have been working with them also. I'm sure that most people didn't see this coming, including me, and hindsight is 20-20. But just look at the time lines. Real issues with the Fighting Sioux nickname and various logos started in the 1960s. AIM started in the same time period. UND didn't really work to create bonds with the tribes ever as far as I know. Therefore the tribes didn't relate to UND and have never been invested in the University or the nickname. The Seminole tribe seems to be much more invested in having Florida State represent their name.

[GeauxSioux]

I've followed Fla St. for a long time and i am not aware of this buying off the tribe as many like to state from time to time. I know I have stated this before in previous topics. The Seminole tribe approached the state legislature, many many years ago, in which they got the legislature to draw up a resolution that the name would always remain Seminoles at FSU. I've never heard any stories or seen any evidence in which any dollars were exchanged in return for accteptance of the name.

There are some relationships between the state and the tribe that I'm sure were discussed in 2005... Seminole Hardrock. See also Seminole Compact.

[Herd]

Conventional Wisdom would have been to drop the word "Fighting" and tried harder to make nice with the two main tribes, using the official name "Sioux". If that move had been made 10 years ago the nickname might have had a better chance of being more widely accepted by tribes, ncaa, opponents, etc. If I was a Sioux tribe descentant, I would not like the word fighting associated with me heritage. Just an opinion of how things might have been different in this situation.

[82SiouxGuy]

Conventional Wisdom would have been to drop the word "Fighting" and tried harder to make nice with the two main tribes, using the official name "Sioux". If that move had been made 10 years ago the nickname might have had a better chance of being more widely accepted by tribes, ncaa, opponents, etc. If I was a Sioux tribe descentant, I would not like the word fighting associated with me heritage. Just an opinion of how things might have been different in this situation.

Very few of the nickname opponents have had a problem with the "Fighting" part of the nickname. The ones that did thought it was stereotyping based on history. But even most of the opponents don't care about the "Fighting" part. They think that it is an insult to use the actual name, Sioux, for something like a sports nickname. They believe it is racist. They hear opposing teams yell nasty things or put see nasty things on signs. And they believe that those opposing teams are including the tribes in what they say. They don't accept that the insults are directed at the University of North Dakota and have nothing to do with the tribes. They also believe that objectifying the tribes by using the nickname helps promote racism in the community in some way. Like some idiot is going to think less of a Native American just because UND teams are called the Fighting Sioux. Using just the name Sioux would have made no difference at all in this debate.

[SiouxMeNow]

Conventional Wisdom would have been to drop the word "Fighting" and tried harder to make nice with the two main tribes, using the official name "Sioux". If that move had been made 10 years ago the nickname might have had a better chance of being more widely accepted by tribes, ncaa, opponents, etc. If I was a Sioux tribe descentant, I would not like the word fighting associated with me heritage. Just an opinion of how things might have been different in this situation.

Yeah THANKS for the advice! No one here has ever thought of that...wow! You're a real BRAIN SURGEON!! Lets see how many glaring smilies I can post in a sarcastic reply....

OHH 4!!!! What can you tell us about shoring up collapsing buildings on your own campus magicial genuis?

[Big A HG]

The other day I was at Oneida Bingo & Casino in Green Bay, WI with a buddy. I had my '09 Macnaughton Cup Champs shirt on while just watching my buddy throw a couple hundred bucks on the craps table. There were 4 employees working the table, 3 of which were people of the Oneida Tribe. One gentleman asked me if my shirt was hockey related in Grand Forks, in which I proudly replied yes. He mentioned he had some Native American classes of some sort in South Dakota at one point. I politely asked him what he thought about the nickname issue, which led to an interesting discussion....

At first he was like, "well, I'm not a Sioux so I really don't care." At that point, I told him to put himself in a Sioux person's shoes and answer it that way. He didn't care if we used it, since there were more important issues to worry about as a Native American, but overall was against it. At that point, a lady chimed in at the table (another employee and fellow Oneida citizen) and said it was great that we used the name to honor the Sioux tribes. She was so far it and actually argued verbally at the table with the other guy about the rights and wrongs while I just stood there and listened. She was proud to see that a Native American image was so proudly presented above all else on the campus and said it should stay forever.

The other guy, again, then got a bit more against it by saying it'd be like them giving themselves a "White Nazis" nickname. He also said that our logo was very "weak" and wondered why another Native American would draw such a weak-figured image. I didn't know what he meant, but I just assumed that he thought an image of a chief or something should have been depicted.

However, as much as he's against all this, he mentioned that his favorite NFL team is the Washington Redskins, just because of the Native American connections.

Overall, it was a very kind and genuine conversation, but you could tell that there are very mixed feelings among all Native Americans about related imagery. Just thought I'd share my experiences.

[Chewey]

The other day I was at Oneida Bingo & Casino in Green Bay, WI with a buddy. I had my '09 Macnaughton Cup Champs shirt on while just watching my buddy throw a couple hundred bucks on the craps table. There were 4 employees working the table, 3 of which were people of the Oneida Tribe. One gentleman asked me if my shirt was hockey related in Grand Forks, in which I proudly replied yes. He mentioned he had some Native American classes of some sort in South Dakota at one point. I politely asked him what he thought about the nickname issue, which led to an interesting discussion....

At first he was like, "well, I'm not a Sioux so I really don't care." At that point, I told him to put himself in a Sioux person's shoes and answer it that way. He didn't care if we used it, since there were more important issues to worry about as a Native American, but overall was against it. At that point, a lady chimed in at the table (another employee and fellow Oneida citizen) and said it was great that we used the name to honor the Sioux tribes. She was so far it and actually argued verbally at the table with the other guy about the rights and wrongs while I just stood there and listened. She was proud to see that a Native American image was so proudly presented above all else on the campus and said it should stay forever.

The other guy, again, then got a bit more against it by saying it'd be like them giving themselves a "White Nazis" nickname. He also said that our logo was very "weak" and wondered why another Native American would draw such a weak-figured image. I didn't know what he meant, but I just assumed that he thought an image of a chief or something should have been depicted.

However, as much as he's against all this, he mentioned that his favorite NFL team is the Washington Redskins, just because of the Native American connections.

Overall, it was a very kind and genuine conversation, but you could tell that there are very mixed feelings among all Native Americans about related imagery. Just thought I'd share my experiences.

Hmmm. Against the Fighting Sioux nickname but likes the Washington Redskins because of the team's affiliation with NA's? Wow, nothing contradictory there.

[darell1976]

Hmmm. Against the Fighting Sioux nickname but likes the Washington Redskins because of the team's affiliation with NA's? Wow, nothing contradictory there.

University of North Dakota Redskins it is. We will use Central's old logo.

[The Sicatoka]

UND has faced 2 issues that I don't think Florida State and some other schools have faced in this nickname debate. The issues are somewhat related. The first issue is the level of activism by tribe members. Native American activism has been much more active and much stronger in this region than in many other parts of the country. While African Americans were fighting for their rights in the South and in other parts of the country, NAs were starting to fight for theirs in this part of the country. All you have to do is look at people like Russell Means, Clyde Bellecourt and the American Indian Movement (AIM). (I believe that Means is Oglala Sioux and Bellecourt is from the White Earth Ojibwa tribe.) AIM was started in the Minneapolis area during the late 1960s and spread around the country. It eventually split in 2, but 1 faction is still headquartered in Minneapolis. AIM took over Alcatraz, Mount Rushmore, the Mayflower II, the Bureau of Indian Affairs building in Washington, DC and Wounded Knee in separate protests between 1969 and 1973 along with many other actions. AIM has always been strong in this region. Native Americans haven't been as organized or as strong in protesting in some other parts of the country.

I also believe that UND did too little in tribal relations. They have done some great things with programs aimed to help with Native American issues. But I don't think that they did enough with actually making personal contacts with tribal leaders and trying to work with them. That goes back to at least Tom Clifford and maybe further. With AIM and other groups out working with the tribes, UND should have been working with them also. I'm sure that most people didn't see this coming, including me, and hindsight is 20-20. But just look at the time lines. Real issues with the Fighting Sioux nickname and various logos started in the 1960s. AIM started in the same time period. UND didn't really work to create bonds with the tribes ever as far as I know. Therefore the tribes didn't relate to UND and have never been invested in the University or the nickname. The Seminole tribe seems to be much more invested in having Florida State represent their name.

UND has twenty-some programs targetted for American Indians.

One in five American Indian medical doctors in the US has a UND Med degree.

No one else comes close.

Short of handing the tribes a blank check, what else (other than better PR about its efforts with a notoriously challenging group to deal with) should UND do?

[82SiouxGuy]

UND has twenty-some programs targetted for American Indians.

One in five American Indian medical doctors in the US has a UND Med degree.

No one else comes close.

Short of handing the tribes a blank check, what else (other than better PR about its efforts with a notoriously challenging group to deal with) should UND do?

What I am talking about probably wouldn't have cost a lot of money. It is often all about the personal relationships. People at different levels of the administration probably should have been in regular contact with the tribes, and made trips out to the reservations on a regular basis. Many of the programs targeted at Native Americans are run by the group that opposes the nickname. They have been the only ones communicating with the tribes. Other people should have been out working with the tribes to give them a different, and hopefully more balanced, view of the University. Like I said, this is 20-20 hindsight. But I think it would have made for a better working relationship with the tribes.

[The Sicatoka]

What I am talking about probably wouldn't have cost a lot of money. It is often all about the personal relationships. People at different levels of the administration probably should have been in regular contact with the tribes, and made trips out to the reservations on a regular basis. Many of the programs targeted at Native Americans are run by the group that opposes the nickname. They have been the only ones communicating with the tribes. Other people should have been out working with the tribes to give them a different, and hopefully more balanced, view of the University. Like I said, this is 20-20 hindsight. But I think it would have made for a better working relationship with the tribes.

I have it on strong authority (someone who's made the trips you describe) that those things have been happening for the last decade plus.

At risk of repeating myself ...

Short of handing the tribes a blank check, what else (other than better PR about its efforts with a notoriously challenging group to deal with) should UND do?

It takes two to negotiate. The chair on the tribe's side of the table seems to be empty.

[82SiouxGuy]

I have it on strong authority (someone who's made the trips you describe) that those things have been happening for the last decade plus.

At risk of repeating myself ...

It takes two to negotiate. The chair on the tribe's side of the table seems to be empty.

It's good to know that they were doing something. Did it start early enough? Could more have been done? I don't know and don't have any details.

You are right about the lack of negotiation from the other side. My only thought was that if the communication had been ongoing for years maybe some of those chairs would be filled. There was a relationship of some kind when the elders made a presentation to President Starcher approximately 40 years ago. It went bad after that.

[The Sicatoka]

FSU is doing so much more than UND ... not.

FSU administrators also regularly travel to Seminole reservations to recruit students to be "Seminole Scholars." Wetherell established the scholarships, which pay 80 percent of a student's tuition. Because of his efforts, Florida State will have four new Seminole students this fall, the most ever enrolled at one time. They will join four Seminole students currently enrolled. Three other Seminole students are alumni.

Wow. Eight Seminole students. Eight. Plus three alumni.

UND has nearly three times the programs for American Indians than FSU has enrolled Seminole students!

http://www.fsu.edu/news/2005/06/17/seminole.support/

[The Sicatoka]

How about we start with something that better fits the economic demographics of the reservations, like basketball.

I know that's been brought up (Roebuck) but I'm not sure it ever happened. It wasn't because UND (Roebuck) was unwilling.

[The Sicatoka]

The reservations can't maintain their tribal facilities, even basic services like water treatment plants and schools.

And now they should add ice facilities?

[The Sicatoka]

Either way, if people set their mind to doing something, anything can happen.

You're right.

Just ask David Gipp and Ron His Horse is Thunder.

They're determined to keep their Peoples in a victim mindset and mode, and they're succeeding.

[Big A HG]

I'm not going even pretend I know anything about solving all the problems on a reservation, but I'm not going to cop out either because of a poor track record on the reservations. All I said earlier was my little take on what could've been and still could be a way for UND to give back to the community, in this case helping the namesake tribes of the school's nickname. Certainly it would be challenging, but maybe if a prestigious hockey institution like UND were to have some sort of partnership in an endeavor as I've described it could come to fruition and start the ball rolling in the right direction. That said, this is highly unlikely given UND's track record.

The government has given Native American's a lot of opportunity. They get a lot of benefits when attending college. How many take that path? Very few. They get a lot of money not only because of the suffering of their people many years ago, but to help them get a jump start in life and make something of themselves. What do they do? Waste the money and choose to live in poverish conditions. Not every Native American does this, and I commend the ones who don't. The ones that live off the system will always do just that, though, and that's the majority.

On a reservation near me, the state took money to build them nice houses to live in on their reservations instead of run-down mobile homes. The Native Americans on that reservation welcomed their new free houses, only to run those down so bad they weren't liveable anymore, so back to the trailer homes they went.

That's the problem with this new Socialist attitude our government has. They want to give money to the poor so they can make something of themselves, the only problem is it will never work, because those people will only go and buy the latest high-definition television with every channel imaginable while drinking themselves further into poverty. If you really want to make something of yourself, there are ways to do it, most just choose not to...not because it's not possible.

I'm all for providing Native Americans with what they need in order to succeed, if they actually put in the effort to do just that...succeed. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way. That's why building them a nice facility to play hockey in will only become another run-down facility while some people who want to lead normal lives on the reservation will go without clean water and without heat in the winter.

I really feel for the people who want to be something, but can't...so don't get confused with what I said. It's just that you have to face the facts when it comes to the situation, and that is most of them don't want to be something in life.