Injury Trends

[The Sicatoka]

From Schlossman's blog:

[sioux rube]

What happened to VV?

[Goon]

From Schlossman's blog:

Can someone explain to me why we can't seem to come out of Duluth without an injury?

- VandeVelde this year (and they took a run at Kristo)

- they took a shot at Genoway on a CFB not that long ago

- they got Trupp (broken leg) on a knee-to-kee

- they tried to get Duncan on a knee-to-knee (but Duncan is from Planet Krypton)

Now let us look at the SCSU hit (clearly a run, and a dirty hit) by Marvin on Genoway this year. That was intentional and malicious.

MSU-Mankato slew footed LaPoint and broke his leg last year.

Denver ended LaPoint's year the year before on a CFB at the Final Five.

Denver broke Robbie Bina's neck. Literally.

If we really are the bad guys, the villains, the scoundrels, as it seems the league believes (and my new signature mocks that belief), can someone point me to teams that are coming away with such serious, significant (to season ending) injuries after UND plays them?

It does appear that the league officials don't care if UND get run. Don't forget the Bulldog player that kneed Watkins at the final five last season as well.

That pretty much ended Watkins effectiveness for the year.

[siouxperseven]

What happened to VV?

We were at the games and Friday VV took two major hits...both legal and at the boards but his body wasn't braced for the second for sure. He then skated to the bench doing a stretch routine and made you think that he tweaked something. The Sat. game was bs. Jackson had a fit with the refs after the game and Eades had to take his arm and walk away. Hak was the last one off the ice walking sidways and wouldn't let his glare leave the refs. I think they're instructed to create parity!!!

[jk]

To be fair to the question, Brock Trotter had his season ended in the REA when Smaby crushed him legally into the boards, but his Achilles was cut in the aftermath.

As for Genoway, I'm sure all Sioux fans were pleased to see SCSU beat UAA Saturday on the strength of two Aaron Marvin goals.

[redwing77]

Remember Mitch Vig's incident too.... Finley's hit on Jack Skille... Though I'm not sure Skille's was season ending. i don't remember.

I hate the injuries, but my beef isn't necessarily about that. Injuries occur in contact sports. Everyone knows that.

My beef is that, essentially, there is no consistency on whether or not those hits that are illegal are actually called as such.

[The Sicatoka]

Vig sidestepped an out-of-control check. Vig was just the other guy in the photo.

Smaby? Clean hit with an unfortunate outcome.

Finley got tangled up with Skille. It wasn't an illegal type play or action.

(In the same game another Badger tweeked a knee and yet another got a bruised thigh in a collision with Chris Porter.)

You can't tell me knee-to-knee contact or CFB or slew footing is incidental or accidental.

As a matter of fact, all three (kneeing, CFB, slew foot) are explicitly mentioned in the rule book as penalties.

Yes, injuries happen in sport.

But the league needs to start consistently cracking down on the most dangerous of the illegal stuff.

I'm worried that the pace we're on that some day Robbie Bina's injury will seem minor. That should scare everyone.

[brianvf]

Finley and Skille? I don't recall the specifics on that one.

Happened the game where UW raised their banner from the 06 Championship season.

Zajac scored the GWG in OT to win for the Sioux:

http://www.uscho.com/recaps/20062007/m/10/13/und-uw.php

With Wisconsin already skating without senior Ross Carlson, who left the game early in the second period with a leg injury, Skille got caught between two Sioux defensemen and fell to the ice writhing in pain. After several minutes on the ice, Skille was helped to the locker room holding his right elbow and did not return.

From the stats that year, it looks like he missed about 14 games (not sure if they were all due to this injury or not).

[SiouxFanatic]

Finley got tangled up with Skille. It wasn't an illegal type play or action.

For your viewing pleasure:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0w9WajNpRg

I wouldn't say they got tangled up...

Legal or not. Who knows, if Finley intended to go in on Skille like that then I'd say debatable.

[soohockey15]

For your viewing pleasure:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0w9WajNpRg

I wouldn't say they got tangled up...

Legal or not. Who knows, if Finley intended to go in on Skille like that then I'd say debatable.

If that hit happened to a Sioux player, there would be a lot of people on this board screaming bloody murder. Must be nice seeing everything through green-shaded glasses.

[Goon]

If that hit happened to a Sioux player, there would be a lot of people on this board screaming bloody murder. Must be nice seeing everything through green-shaded glasses.

It's a legal hit, he didn't lead with his elbow, he didn't jump up to hit Skille so I think it's pretty accurate to conclude that particular check was legal.

[The Sicatoka]

Finley's shoulder was

- lower than Skille's (good trick when you're 6'7")

- in front of Skille's

when contact was made.

Finley moved in front of the puck carrier to separate him from the puck. It's probably the best legal move Finley made in his career. Unfortunately for Skille the contact point was his elbow and it didn't deal with the force very well.

Now, compare that hit to the hit by Marvin on Genoway. Or the slew foot. Of the CFBs on LaPoint and Bina.

[nodak hockey fanatic]

i agree with sica here, don't try and compare injuries on legal plays to injuries that were a direct result of a dirty play. the incidents on bina, lapoint and genoway were all dirty... and all got a whopping one game suspension. the knee on knee on watkins and duncs, dirty and didn't get a penalty, let alone a suspension. as stated, finleys hit, completely legal and clean. don't know about smaby's, don't remember the hit or vigs, but don't compare apples to oranges here. i think the original point was that dirty plays leading to injuries need to be dealt with more severely... which i agree with. and i don't think any logical sioux fan would be screaming bloody murder if a sioux player was on the other end of the finley hit, it was a hard, clean check.

[The Whistler]

Finley's shoulder was

- lower than Skille's (good trick when you're 6'7")

- in front of Skille's

when contact was made.

Finley moved in front of the puck carrier to separate him from the puck. It's probably the best legal move Finley made in his career. Unfortunately for Skille the contact point was his elbow and it didn't deal with the force very well.

Now, compare that hit to the hit by Marvin on Genoway. Or the slew foot. Of the CFBs on LaPoint and Bina.

There's no way Finley's hit on Skille could be considered illegal. I thought at the time that Smaby's hit was perhaps a boarding. The thing about that that incident that injury was a freak thing that could have happened in a lesser hit.

[redwing77]

i agree with sica here, don't try and compare injuries on legal plays to injuries that were a direct result of a dirty play. the incidents on bina, lapoint and genoway were all dirty... and all got a whopping one game suspension. the knee on knee on watkins and duncs, dirty and didn't get a penalty, let alone a suspension. as stated, finleys hit, completely legal and clean. don't know about smaby's, don't remember the hit or vigs, but don't compare apples to oranges here. i think the original point was that dirty plays leading to injuries need to be dealt with more severely... which i agree with. and i don't think any logical sioux fan would be screaming bloody murder if a sioux player was on the other end of the finley hit, it was a hard, clean check.

I'm not.

I'm simply pointing to the hits that have other teams calling us scoundrels and all. To many, it doesn't matter whether it is legal or not. A UND player injured their player and that's all there is to it.

We're not saints either. I'm sure if Genoway had gotten injured in a legal hit there would still be some posters here calling out Marvin regardless.

It has to do with the perception rather than reality in many cases.

[jk]

... can someone point me to teams that are coming away with such serious, significant (to season ending) injuries after UND plays them?

I was answering this question, which doesn't refer to illegal hits, when I mentioned Trotter. I agree it was a fluky injury.

[siouxweet]

I was answering this question, which doesn't refer to illegal hits, when I mentioned Trotter. I agree it was a fluky injury.

and that was four years ago.

[nodak hockey fanatic]

I'm not.

I'm simply pointing to the hits that have other teams calling us scoundrels and all. To many, it doesn't matter whether it is legal or not. A UND player injured their player and that's all there is to it.

We're not saints either. I'm sure if Genoway had gotten injured in a legal hit there would still be some posters here calling out Marvin regardless.

It has to do with the perception rather than reality in many cases.

i couldn't care less what fans of other teams' perceptions are, that has absolutely no ramifications (or shouldn't) on the game itself, but i hear what you are saying. if a player gets hurt on a clean play, it's sports, injuries happen and you deal with it. you still may not like it, but you don't place the blame on the opponenet if it was a clean play, sioux or not. forney and murray had season (and und career ending) shoulder injuries, i didn't see anyone throwing blame on the opponenet who hit them. where it gets frustrating, and dangerous, is when the officials, the league office and even coaches and players are allowing, missing, blowing, whatever you call it, all these dangerous, illegal plays that are causing injury. the sioux aren't saints, we play physical, and have made dangerous hits (cfb, etc.) and even if they don't cause injury, i don't like it, and believe me neither does hak and company, have you seen his face when one of his players takes a dumb penalty or makes a dangerous play. but what kind of message are you sending the entire league when a guy breaks another guys neck and you give him a two minute minor and a one game suspension?? or if you head hunt a guy for 200 feet then slam his head into the glass when he's not expecting it... one game, and genoway still has no timetable for return?? this is the type of thing that is a joke. it starts with mcclown and papa shep... if you have two bafoons at the wheel, how do we expect anything more from the officials who report to them... or a$$clowns like gwoz who just do whatever they please because he knows they won't do anything to him. i'm not directing this at you, but this topic is one that gets me going, because if changes aren't made to protect the players, guys like toews, oshie, kessel, parise etc. will take their talent north of the border. one, the officiating has got to be better, although i have no first hand knowledge, as i haven't seen a game. and two, they allow self policing. a guy knows if he makes a dirty play, he's going to have to answer the bell. i'm not saying that fighting is the end all, be all solution to this, so please dave k, take a deep breath. just my little rant... it's going to be a long weekend if we are without two of our senior captains, uw can bury the puck!!

[redwing77]

i couldn't care less what fans of other teams' perceptions are, that has absolutely no ramifications (or shouldn't) on the game itself, but i hear what you are saying. if a player gets hurt on a clean play, it's sports, injuries happen and you deal with it. you still may not like it, but you don't place the blame on the opponenet if it was a clean play, sioux or not. forney and murray had season (and und career ending) shoulder injuries, i didn't see anyone throwing blame on the opponenet who hit them. where it gets frustrating, and dangerous, is when the officials, the league office and even coaches and players are allowing, missing, blowing, whatever you call it, all these dangerous, illegal plays that are causing injury. the sioux aren't saints, we play physical, and have made dangerous hits (cfb, etc.) and even if they don't cause injury, i don't like it, and believe me neither does hak and company, have you seen his face when one of his players takes a dumb penalty or makes a dangerous play. but what kind of message are you sending the entire league when a guy breaks another guys neck and you give him a two minute minor and a one game suspension?? or if you head hunt a guy for 200 feet then slam his head into the glass when he's not expecting it... one game, and genoway still has no timetable for return?? this is the type of thing that is a joke. it starts with mcclown and papa shep... if you have two bafoons at the wheel, how do we expect anything more from the officials who report to them... or a$$clowns like gwoz who just do whatever they please because he knows they won't do anything to him. i'm not directing this at you, but this topic is one that gets me going, because if changes aren't made to protect the players, guys like toews, oshie, kessel, parise etc. will take their talent north of the border. one, the officiating has got to be better, although i have no first hand knowledge, as i haven't seen a game. and two, they allow self policing. a guy knows if he makes a dirty play, he's going to have to answer the bell. i'm not saying that fighting is the end all, be all solution to this, so please dave k, take a deep breath. just my little rant... it's going to be a long weekend if we are without two of our senior captains, uw can bury the puck!!

Uh when the NCAA makes a rule emphasis directly related to Bina and Don Adam (The CFB rule) that forces officials' hands.... I think that pretty much says it all.

Right now, this sort of thing makes players like Toews, Kessel, Vanek, Oshie, etc. much more appealing and fun to watch at the DI level because, and I cannot believe the CHL fans that troll around haven't said this yet but, at the CHL level, cheap shots are handled immediately and are followed through according to the severity of the act. Yeah, the cheap shots that have occured in the CHL over the past few years have been jaw dropping (not in quantity, but in quality if you will) but two things happen right away: 1. The team that got hit can stand up to the other team and 2. The league doesn't care about records when it comes to punishment. They don't see themselves as any better or worse for having dealt out a suspension longer than 2 games.

I can't vouch for the competence of CHL refs. I've never watched them at a game. But I just can't believe that they don't face as lackluster accountability standards as WCHA officials.

Right now, I'm starting to think that there is a dichotomy in DI hockey. The best league and the best division. Here's the difference:

Division - The best division is the best grouping of teams top to bottom on average in a subjective, overall nature.

League - The best league is the best run division from an administrative standpoint including officiating, policy, operations, marketing and publicity, etc.

Right now, I maintain that the WCHA is the best Division in DI hockey.

I think the HEA has the best league in DI.

[nodak hockey fanatic]

Uh when the NCAA makes a rule emphasis directly related to Bina and Don Adam (The CFB rule) that forces officials' hands.... I think that pretty much says it all.

Right now, this sort of thing makes players like Toews, Kessel, Vanek, Oshie, etc. much more appealing and fun to watch at the DI level because, and I cannot believe the CHL fans that troll around haven't said this yet but, at the CHL level, cheap shots are handled immediately and are followed through according to the severity of the act. Yeah, the cheap shots that have occured in the CHL over the past few years have been jaw dropping (not in quantity, but in quality if you will) but two things happen right away: 1. The team that got hit can stand up to the other team and 2. The league doesn't care about records when it comes to punishment. They don't see themselves as any better or worse for having dealt out a suspension longer than 2 games.

I can't vouch for the competence of CHL refs. I've never watched them at a game. But I just can't believe that they don't face as lackluster accountability standards as WCHA officials.

Right now, I'm starting to think that there is a dichotomy in DI hockey. The best league and the best division. Here's the difference:

Division - The best division is the best grouping of teams top to bottom on average in a subjective, overall nature.

League - The best league is the best run division from an administrative standpoint including officiating, policy, operations, marketing and publicity, etc.

Right now, I maintain that the WCHA is the best Division in DI hockey.

I think the HEA has the best league in DI.

uh, the wcha and du did next to nothing in reguards to the bina incident (the one game suspension was a joke). the ncaa is a different entity, and made a point of emphasis for players safety, which they should have, and good for them, but i wasn't talking about the ncaa. lapoint lost half a season and has more hardware in his leg than most veterans... because he can skate again, a slew foot isn't a point of emphasis? do we need a cam neely incident (i think it was him who had his career ended?) before a knee on knee is an automatic suspension? what if genoway misses the rest of the season? then will there be a point of emphasis for headhunting hits from behind to a defenseless, unsuspecting opponenet? i'm not talking about the ncaa rules committee, i am talking about the wcha league office and how they handle their officials and incidents like the ones being discussed, and my opinion on the matter is the same... its a joke. do we need a point of emphasis to protect the players? can't mcclown grow a pair and hand out a suspension worthy of the act? i would think you would have to kill someone to get more than a one game suspension, and even then if it's a first offense, i wouldn't be shocked if the mandatory one game is all they got. i used to get very frustrated with the subpar officiating in such a great conference, but after all these years, i have come to the realization that the guys in charge are setting these guys up for failure, although there are still instances where the officiating is atrocious (how do 4 officials miss a puck hitting the netting?

also, its the end of the day, so my reading comprehension is suspect at best, but you might have to clarify for me why the top end talent is better off in college hockey? im not being a smart a$$, i just didn't get your reasoning. and i agree with you the wcha is still the best conference in hockey, but how long will it stay that way?

[redwing77]

uh, the wcha and du did next to nothing in reguards to the bina incident (the one game suspension was a joke). the ncaa is a different entity, and made a point of emphasis for players safety, which they should have, and good for them, but i wasn't talking about the ncaa. lapoint lost half a season and has more hardware in his leg than most veterans... because he can skate again, a slew foot isn't a point of emphasis? do we need a cam neely incident (i think it was him who had his career ended?) before a knee on knee is an automatic suspension? what if genoway misses the rest of the season? then will there be a point of emphasis for headhunting hits from behind to a defenseless, unsuspecting opponenet? i'm not talking about the ncaa rules committee, i am talking about the wcha league office and how they handle their officials and incidents like the ones being discussed, and my opinion on the matter is the same... its a joke. do we need a point of emphasis to protect the players? can't mcclown grow a pair and hand out a suspension worthy of the act? i would think you would have to kill someone to get more than a one game suspension, and even then if it's a first offense, i wouldn't be shocked if the mandatory one game is all they got. i used to get very frustrated with the subpar officiating in such a great conference, but after all these years, i have come to the realization that the guys in charge are setting these guys up for failure, although there are still instances where the officiating is atrocious (how do 4 officials miss a puck hitting the netting?

also, its the end of the day, so my reading comprehension is suspect at best, but you might have to clarify for me why the top end talent is better off in college hockey? im not being a smart a$$, i just didn't get your reasoning. and i agree with you the wcha is still the best conference in hockey, but how long will it stay that way?

We're arguing the same point. My point is that the NCAA doesn't usually interfere with the game by game administration of a league unless its hand is forced. These points of emphasis aren't there to promote the NCAA. They are there to fill in the inadequacies of the conferences under its care. Time and time again, Officials and Administrators of the individual conferences fail to enforce the rulebook in an adequate manner in various areas. The NCAA isn't the only entity that has had the problem (See the NHL and the transition from "The Old" to "The New"), but DI hockey seems to be the only aspect of the NCAA that has the number of problems that are major to the game. Sure, every year college football puts some emphasis on this or that, but they aren't major big deals in many cases (horse-collar tackles and helmet-to-helmet shots to the QB aside). We are always announcing points of emphasis on BASIC rules. And they always result in taking the discretion of the ref OUT of the equation. When enough of that is occuring one has to ask the question "Is there a way to invent a robot to officiate?" After all, if you can't trust the PEOPLE, then replace them. Kindof extreme, but if you don't have the personnel and administration is too blind to see it as a problem and too unwilling to deal with their shortcomings as well, it's kindof becoming the only answer since the NCAA can't come in and fire people...though with their pro-active ways (see Nickname) maybe that's on the way too.

I agree completely that it starts at the top and works its way down. I'll use the same old tired analogy again. Jon Campion and even Zelkin, when they first started officiating in this league, were GOOD officials. They called real penalties and weren't ever the center of attention. They were fair and even. They blew a few here and there but not too badly that it brought bias into the equation. For Zelkin, I don't recall, but shortly after Campion joined and peaking at his injury at the Ralph, Campion's work changed. It went down until it matched the other incompetents wearing black and white.

The WCHA only took three actions after the Bina tragedy:

1. They changed the penalty after the game to be a CFB Major and a DQ. The Major was all semantics because Paukovich played all but 2 minutes of the remainder of the game. DU was the entity that made it into an extra game, not the WCHA or NCAA.

2. They hired Greg Shepherd full time.*

3. The suspended Don Adam for 1 month (the first month of the following season). Assuming that he would be working every weekend in that month, that equates to 8 games. I do not recall the verbage of the suspension so I cannot say whether or not there was a withholding of pay. Remember: Don Adam once worked for Hockey East for a time and they either fired him or did not ask him back. That, in itself, tells me that there was some sort of accountability standards in place in the HEA for officials that didn't care about seniority... a valuable system to have. An official can suck at his job for 1 year or 50 years... any way you cut it, he still sucks.

* - This is the most baffling of the reactions. Under this guy's watch, the most heinous injury in DI hockey in recent history occurs, they take very little action, and he's given a full time job out of it. Doesn't that seem rather odd? Let's go back to April/May 2005 and make Robbie Bina an NHL player, Don Adam an NHL official (I know, but dream it up anyways), and have the NHL Director of Officiating being held part time by Greg Shepherd (actually, I can't find a record of the NHL Director of Officiating from July 2004 to August 2005). Do you think Colin Campbell would stimply sit there, shrug, and say "Well, I think the reason why this happened was because we don't have a full time Director. So, I'll let the guy this came through take the reins full time." Honestly? NOT A CHANCE. Greg's ass would be fired instead of hired. Don never would have been suspended unless the term "indefinitely" appeared after that word.

As for the last statement: I meant to say, with this state of officiating, why would a top tier player like Oshie, Toews, etc. want to come to DI hockey? They're much better protected in the WHL. This is what Kelly has to deal with. However, I don't know what he can do to help prospects overlook this level of big picture corruption.

[Goon]

We're arguing the same point. My point is that the NCAA doesn't usually interfere with the game by game administration of a league unless its hand is forced. These points of emphasis aren't there to promote the NCAA. They are there to fill in the inadequacies of the conferences under its care. Time and time again, Officials and Administrators of the individual conferences fail to enforce the rulebook in an adequate manner in various areas. The NCAA isn't the only entity that has had the problem (See the NHL and the transition from "The Old" to "The New"), but DI hockey seems to be the only aspect of the NCAA that has the number of problems that are major to the game. Sure, every year college football puts some emphasis on this or that, but they aren't major big deals in many cases (horse-collar tackles and helmet-to-helmet shots to the QB aside). We are always announcing points of emphasis on BASIC rules. And they always result in taking the discretion of the ref OUT of the equation. When enough of that is occurring one has to ask the question "Is there a way to invent a robot to officiate?" After all, if you can't trust the PEOPLE, then replace them. Kindof extreme, but if you don't have the personnel and administration is too blind to see it as a problem and too unwilling to deal with their shortcomings as well, it's kindof becoming the only answer since the NCAA can't come in and fire people...though with their pro-active ways (see Nickname) maybe that's on the way too.

I agree completely that it starts at the top and works its way down. I'll use the same old tired analogy again. Jon Campion and even Zelkin, when they first started officiating in this league, were GOOD officials. They called real penalties and weren't ever the center of attention. They were fair and even. They blew a few here and there but not too badly that it brought bias into the equation. For Zelkin, I don't recall, but shortly after Campion joined and peaking at his injury at the Ralph, Campion's work changed. It went down until it matched the other incompetents wearing black and white.

The WCHA only took three actions after the Bina tragedy:

1. They changed the penalty after the game to be a CFB Major and a DQ. The Major was all semantics because Paukovich played all but 2 minutes of the remainder of the game. DU was the entity that made it into an extra game, not the WCHA or NCAA.

2. They hired Greg Shepherd full time.*

3. The suspended Don Adam for 1 month (the first month of the following season). Assuming that he would be working every weekend in that month, that equates to 8 games. I do not recall the verbage of the suspension so I cannot say whether or not there was a withholding of pay. Remember: Don Adam once worked for Hockey East for a time and they either fired him or did not ask him back. That, in itself, tells me that there was some sort of accountability standards in place in the HEA for officials that didn't care about seniority... a valuable system to have. An official can suck at his job for 1 year or 50 years... any way you cut it, he still sucks.

* - This is the most baffling of the reactions. Under this guy's watch, the most heinous injury in DI hockey in recent history occurs, they take very little action, and he's given a full time job out of it. Doesn't that seem rather odd? Let's go back to April/May 2005 and make Robbie Bina an NHL player, Don Adam an NHL official (I know, but dream it up anyways), and have the NHL Director of Officiating being held part time by Greg Shepherd (actually, I can't find a record of the NHL Director of Officiating from July 2004 to August 2005). Do you think Colin Campbell would stimply sit there, shrug, and say "Well, I think the reason why this happened was because we don't have a full time Director. So, I'll let the guy this came through take the reins full time." Honestly? NOT A CHANCE. Greg's ass would be fired instead of hired. Don never would have been suspended unless the term "indefinitely" appeared after that word.

As for the last statement: I meant to say, with this state of officiating, why would a top tier player like Oshie, Toews, etc. want to come to DI hockey? They're much better protected in the WHL. This is what Kelly has to deal with. However, I don't know what he can do to help prospects overlook this level of big picture corruption.

Nothing is going to happen until the member schools in the WCHA start expressing their displeasure with the state of the officials in the WCHA. The reason McClown is the WCHA commissioner is because the member schools of the WCHA let him remain in that position. Every year we hear how the schools are not unhappy with the officials. I think this thing is starting to come to a head with the blown goals, the Anderson reprimand for grabbing a player last season. We the fans need to start letting our WCHA Faculty reps and the AD's know that we aren't happy with the way things are. I think some of the articles that Virg Foss has written is starting to shed light of the situation. I don't know if it would hurt if fans starting flooding the NCAA ice hockey committee and and Paul Kelly Emails. Maybe it's time to let him know what is going on in our league.

[Blackheart]

Once again...

Players - world class

Fans - diehard

Arenas - some of the nicest you'll see at any level

Referees - Beer League Rejects