Voting Results

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

Can the tribal council still formally oppose our use of the name and logo?

I think so. Obviously they would be disregarding the will of the very people who elect them, and therefore risking a shakeup in government but AFAIK there's nothing to prevent them from ignoring this vote. I guess the vote could be referred to as a "non-binding referendum" AFAIK.

If so, to whom will the NCAA listen.

I believe the agreement speaks to the idea that the permission must come from an group that's authorized under the Tribal Constitution to speak for and/or legally contract for the tribe. Therefore, the Tribal Constitution holds the answer.

If the members of Standing Rock manage to get to vote on the issue and also vote their support of our countinued use of the name and logo, can their tribal council formally oppose our use of the name and logo?

Same answer as above.

Edit: we may have some further info on the agreement even as we speak...

http://forum.siouxsports.com/index.php?sho...mp;#entry394038

[MplsBison]

I respect your position, MplsBison, but we'll have to agree to disagree. For you, at the moment, it is that simple, because it's a theoretical not a real-life challenge at the moment. Years ago Bobby Kennedy when asked about his pursuing the presidency of the United States quite adamantly ruled out that option for a long time. When, later, suddenly reenergized by then Minnesota U.S. Senator Eugene McCarthy's strong challenge tp sitting president Lyndon Johnson in the 1968 New Hampshire primary, Bobby suddenly "reassessed" his position. He quickly did a 180 degree turn and tossed his hat into the ring. I believe you at the moment when you say you would choose conference membership, and maybe you would even if the UND/NDSU situation were reversed at the moment. All I can reiterate is that the NDSU situation you talk about is theoretical, and is something you will likely never have to face in this either-or scernario. Knowing the scenario you are operating under (NDSU entry into the Summit or other auto-bid conferences) you are quite safe in saying what you say. By the way, why do you really care if UND is admkitted into the Summit anyway?

I see what your saying...but in my specific case you're still wrong.

I personally don't care one way or the other about nicknames. If every school was just called by the school's initials, that would be fine with me. That's what I do anyway. I say "NDSU" or "UND". I don't say "Bison" or "Sioux".

I care because for the Summit to survive and prosper, it needs to have a stable membership of flagship academic institutions. The Dakota 4 bring that foundation. There is just no sense in having 3 of the 4 schools and leaving UND out of the picture.

[Big A HG]

I care because for the Summit to survive and prosper, it needs to have a stable membership of flagship academic institutions. The Dakota 4 bring that foundation. There is just no sense in having 3 of the 4 schools and leaving UND out of the picture.

So, you're just a tough love type of guy, eh?

[mizzou/sioux]

I see what your saying...but in my specific case you're still wrong.

I personally don't care one way or the other about nicknames. If every school was just called by the school's initials, that would be fine with me. That's what I do anyway. I say "NDSU" or "UND". I don't say "Bison" or "Sioux".

I care because for the Summit to survive and prosper, it needs to have a stable membership of flagship academic institutions. The Dakota 4 bring that foundation. There is just no sense in having 3 of the 4 schools and leaving UND out of the picture.

MplsBison, I quite agree with you regarding the last paragraph of your post. For the stability of the conference it makes a good deal of sense to keep the four Dakota universities together in one conference, and even more specifically, in the same division. And thanks for responding to my question as to why it matters to you. You have spoken eloquently and for that I respect you. Good post.

[Siouxman]

OK, I'm setting myself up for flaming but I can't stay quiet. I am as big a supporter of the name and logo as anyone. I believe that we use the name and logo with the utmost respect, loyalty and love. But, I do not believe that our name and logo in anyway helps to educate people who the Sioux people are or were. Not once in my travels has anyone asked for the history of the Sioux people when they admire the Sioux logo on the clothing I am wearing......not once.

I will give you one example. Several years ago the Maine Black Bears came to The Ralph after losing their coach to cancer. There was a Sioux tribal ceremony on the ice for the Maine coach and all who had passed away during the prior year. I believe that the Maine people did get quite an education.

[choyt3]

I see what your saying...but in my specific case you're still wrong.

I personally don't care one way or the other about nicknames. If every school was just called by the school's initials, that would be fine with me. That's what I do anyway. I say "NDSU" or "UND". I don't say "Bison" or "Sioux".

I care because for the Summit to survive and prosper, it needs to have a stable membership of flagship academic institutions. The Dakota 4 bring that foundation. There is just no sense in having 3 of the 4 schools and leaving UND out of the picture.

So, why, then, is your name on here MplsBison and not MplsNDSU?

Your purpose here is what? You have been talking in circles for the last two days on this issue, basically re-stating the same points. I don't see what you're adding to the conversation. Your rebuttals are always something to the effect of "you are wrong, I am right". I also don't see how you can possibly care so much about UND's nickname, or what conference UND gets into. At least up to this post? Call me confused, I guess.

[Sioux-cia]

I will give you one example. Several years ago the Maine Black Bears came to The Ralph after losing their coach to cancer. There was a Sioux tribal ceremony on the ice for the Maine coach and all who had passed away during the prior year. I believe that the Maine people did get quite an education.

They don't talk about the Sioux tribal ceremony when they talk about that series, at least not the Maine fans I have spoken to, they speak about the support and caring that our hockey program and fans bestowed upon them once again.

[Goon]

So, why, then, is your name on here MplsBison and not MplsNDSU?

Your purpose here is what? You have been talking in circles for the last two days on this issue, basically re-stating the same points. I don't see what you're adding to the conversation. Your rebuttals are always something to the effect of "you are wrong, I am right". I also don't see how you can possibly care so much about UND's nickname, or what conference UND gets into. At least up to this post? Call me confused, I guess.

Good point, what the heck is your point MplsBison for posting here? It looks as if your just here to stir up trouble.

[fourwindsboy]

Thank You Goon! Fighting Sioux clothing is one of the highest selling in college sports. It's one of the most beautiful logos in the world. The loss of the logo will be another step towards people not knowing what the NA heritage is. If we change the name, few will know about the trIbes in North Dakota and i believe that its a huge step backward for Native Americans. I just dont get what they will gain out of the name change other than people mad about them changing it. Its sad. Really sad.

So your saying that wearing a UND jersey promotes Dakota culture? 9/10 caucasions who are UND fans wouldn't know Dakota culture if it hit them in the face! Nor do they want to know. All they care about is the logo/name and don't give a rats a$$ about NA's. By the way, the name is still going to be changed regardless of the vote results at SL, bank on it.

[The Sicatoka]

So your saying that wearing a UND jersey promotes Dakota culture? 9/10 caucasions who are UND fans wouldn't know Dakota culture if it hit them in the face! Nor do they want to know. All they care about is the logo/name and don't give a rats a$$ about NA's. By the way, the name is still going to be changed regardless of the vote results at SL, bank on it.

I have two concerns:

1. Do you always view people by the color of their skin ("caucasions" <sic>) and not the content of their character?

2. Say you are correct and the name changes: You will have great emptiness in your life. Which windmill will you tilt at next?

[Chewey]

So your saying that wearing a UND jersey promotes Dakota culture? 9/10 caucasions who are UND fans wouldn't know Dakota culture if it hit them in the face! Nor do they want to know. All they care about is the logo/name and don't give a rats a$$ about NA's. By the way, the name is still going to be changed regardless of the vote results at SL, bank on it.

I think I'll "bank" elsewhere. I keep hearing that kind of blather and it just encourages me even more. The "we will never quit" and the "name is still going to be changed......, bank on it" just smacks of PC frustration and that is humorous.

[fourwindsboy]

I have two concerns:

1. Do you always view people by the color of their skin ("caucasions" <sic>) and not the content of their character?

2. Say you are correct and the name changes: You will have great emptiness in your life. Which windmill will you tilt at next?

HAHAHAHA!!!!!

[Chewey]

HAHAHAHA!!!!!

I'd say the nickname supporters are the ones who are jubliant. At leat the vast majority of one tribe has said that they do not want the nickname retired. I am sure the members of the tribe who support the name are happy that they finally had their voices heard above the non-sensical racist cacophony of the name changers.

[darell1976]

I'd say the nickname supporters are the ones who are jubliant. At leat the vast majority of one tribe has said that they do not want the nickname retired. I am sure the members of the tribe who support the name are happy that they finally had their voices heard above the non-sensical racist cacophony of the name changers.

I could see the tribal council ignoring the vote of the people and not approving the name. But are they willing to risk re-election to do so..thats the #1 question.

[dagies]

As has been pointed out the vote victory isn't binding but it does refute the arguments made by the opponents including the NCAA. If the Tribal Councils continue to refuse their consent that is their right, but their denial will never be accepted as true representation of their people except by the few who agree with the Tribal decisions (those members that voted against, the NCAA, and the other well-meaning but misguided nickname opponents).

Not that we couldn't anyway, but with this vote we can all hold our head high regardless of the final outcome because the proof is irrefutable.

[Sioux-cia]

So what is your point? Do you think people/sport's fans really care about the origin/history of the Vikings, the (Fighting) Irish, the Chippewas... So unless education of others is involved, a nickname/logo representing a "group" of people can't be used? Heck, most Sioux youth today don't even know their own history!

You should read the post I responded to before you ask what my point is.

[redwing77]

As has been pointed out the vote victory isn't binding but it does refute the arguments made by the opponents including the NCAA. If the Tribal Councils continue to refuse their consent that is their right, but their denial will never be accepted as true representation of their people except by the few who agree with the Tribal decisions (those members that voted against, the NCAA, and the other well-meaning but misguided nickname opponents).

Not that we couldn't anyway, but with this vote we can all hold our head high regardless of the final outcome because the proof is irrefutable.

I don't know why it is even in question that the tribal council could accept the results.

It's not whether they will or won't. It's when they won't.

Reelection isn't going to be much of a problem because I really think this issue overall is a minor issue in the eyes of reservation people. Now, that's an assumption of course, based upon a myriad of different problems I see the poor folks on the reservations go through. I mean, really, if I were in the position of a reservation resident, why would I care what UND calls itself? I'd be more worried about my socioeconomic status or perhaps possible personal issues such as health or education or alcoholism.

And for those of you who jump on my use of education, know this: If the nickname is affecting education on the reservation than the problem isn't the nickname, it's within the walls of the schools. Fix what you can fix to make your lives better. Changing outside visages based on idealism and victimology (to make up a term) is not effective.

What is effective is to try to make some sort of progress towards public health and public education. Is there a way to curb alcoholism? Is there a way to curb truancy and dropping out of high school? There are others I'm sure, but those are great starts.

I'd love to see NA graduation rates in ND get over 60%. All it takes is a 4% shift to the positive (based upon old, but accessible information). Is there a public perception on NA reservations that education just isn't important? I realize that there are quality issues with the schools themselves, which is a problem, but seriously..... Why any ethnicity allows themselves to fail in basic public education like the NA do (hispanics in ND apparently have worse numbers due to many being migratory I'm sure).

Make a difference, NA people. Graduate high school. Go to college. Look at African Americans. Not 60 years ago, they were in similar positions. They didn't seem to place much value in education as they were bound to menial jobs and no real future. Then, in the 1960s (and surely leading up to the 1960s) their civil rights movement took full swing and now, things are much better for them. Sure, there are still issues, but they've shaken the image for the most part and now there are many prominent African Americans in society.

I firmly believe that the NA people could be the same way. They just have to shed a mentality and come to terms with moving to the future rather than staying in the quagmire of doom and gloom that is their terrible past.

[Sioux-cia]

Can I ask about the flip-side? Do you personally believe that when you wear a jersey, sweatshirt, etc. that the people you encounter think that you are mocking the Sioux; do you think that the people you meet believe that by wearing that clothing you are placing yourself in a superior position to the Sioux?

I'll also add this much: I think the number of people who support the Univ. of North Dakota who are far more likely to learn about the Native Americans because of the nickname is greater than the number of people who take the time to learn about say, the Bison or Jackrabbits.

No one has ever come up to me and said a negative thing about the Fighting Sioux logo on the clothing I wear.

I think it's great if the Sioux name and logo generates enough curiosity in some people that they will educate themselve. I don't believe it is the 'norm'. When I moved to ND, I educated myself about the Native American people who live in ND because there are four reservations in the state. When I first moved here I wasn't aware of the Fighting Sioux name and logo. I'm ashamed to say, I wasn't a college sports fan when I moved here.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

I think it's great if the Sioux name and logo generates enough curiosity in some people that they will educate themselve. I don't believe it is the 'norm'.

No it's probably not the norm: but OTOH, IMHO the number of people who come to UND and learn about the NA and the Sioux far outnumber those who go to Connecticut and learn about the Huskies, or those who go to St. John's and learn about the Red Storm, and so on.

Off the top of my head I can't think of many institutions that I would automatically put in the category of inspiring a

greater

amount of student/fan interest in learning about what their nickname means; nor many that have a nickname that have a great historical story to tell about their nickname.

As noted, you haven't had anyone else come up to you and say something negative. I'd be willing to bet that most people from NDSU, the South Dakota schools, etc. can say the same thing. Most student/alums/fans concentrate on their own schools.

[Sioux-cia]

No it's probably not the norm: but OTOH, IMHO the number of people who come to UND and learn about the NA and the Sioux far outnumber those who go to Connecticut and learn about the Huskies, or those who go to St. John's and learn about the Red Storm, and so on.

Off the top of my head I can't think of many institutions that I would automatically put in the category of inspiring a

greater

amount of student/fan interest in learning about what their nickname means; nor many that have a nickname that have a great historical story to tell about their nickname.

As noted, you haven't had anyone else come up to you and say something negative. I'd be willing to bet that most people from NDSU, the South Dakota schools, etc. can say the same thing. Most student/alums/fans concentrate on their own schools.

1 & 2. We agree.

3. I don't understand what your responding to? My answer was in response to your question, "....do you think that the people you meet believe that by wearing that clothing you are placing yourself in a superior position to the Sioux?"

Since no person who I have met when I am wearing Sioux gear has said anything negative to me about the name and logo, I can't answer that question.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

I don't understand what your responding to? My answer was in response to your question, "....do you think that the people you meet believe that by wearing that clothing you are placing yourself in a superior position to the Sioux?"

Since no person who I have met when I am wearing Sioux gear has said anything negative to me about the name and logo, I can't answer that question.

My point is this: for most schools, a nickname isn't something that inspires much interest from their own students and fans. IMHO your nickname has inspired at least SOME people (probably only your own fans/students/alums, but still) to learn something about NA's and their relation to North Dakota.

Not only is Sioux not a negative, IMHO its about as much of a positive as any nickname out there.

As an aside, I can say my own experience isn't yours. I've heard from both grads of other schools and people who never attended college what an incredible sight our Chief was. But just as you experienced, I never heard anyone say anything negative.

[Sioux-cia]

My point is this: for most schools, a nickname isn't something that inspires much interest from their own students and fans. IMHO your nickname has inspired at least SOME people (probably only your own fans/students/alums, but still) to learn something about NA's and their relation to North Dakota.

Not only is Sioux not a negative, IMHO its about as much of a positive as any nickname out there.

As an aside, I can say my own experience isn't yours. I've heard from both grads of other schools and people who never attended college what an incredible sight our Chief was. But just as you experienced, I never heard anyone say anything negative.

I attended the U of I for one year (I was born and grew up in Chicago). I was aware of the name and logo but since I was not a college sports fan, that's all I was, just aware. I did not educate myself, at that time, as to who the Illini people were.

[fourwindsboy]

I read in the Herald today that a Lakota band from SD was scheduled to play at the Fritz but cancelled due to lack of ticket sales. Huh? So many peolple on this site have said they would like to educate themselves more about Dakota/Lakota culture and a native entertainment group comes to GF and no one wants to see them! Just goes to prove my point that 99% of name supporters don't give a damn about NA's or Native culture. And you all know thats the truth. All they are concerned about is thier precious logo/nickname. People of Standing Rock, take note of this. Me and my family were in GF today and we were in Target shopping. When we got to the checkout we were the 3rd in line. The check out girl was this bubbly person who struck up a conversation with the 2 customers ahead of us, both caucasions. When it was our turn all she said was "hi" and "did you find everything". That was it. Thats how it is for Natives in towns like DL and GF. You stay classy GF!!

[choyt3]

I read in the Herald today that a Lakota band from SD was scheduled to play at the Fritz but cancelled due to lack of ticket sales. Huh? So many peolple on this site have said they would like to educate themselves more about Dakota/Lakota culture and a native entertainment group comes to GF and no one wants to see them! Just goes to prove my point that 99% of name supporters don't give a damn about NA's or Native culture. And you all know thats the truth. All they are concerned about is thier precious logo/nickname. People of Standing Rock, take note of this.

Were you able to get what you paid for your tickets refunded?

Me and my family were in GF today and we were in Target shopping. When we got to the checkout we were the 3rd in line. The check out girl was this bubbly person who struck up a conversation with the 2 customers ahead of us, both caucasions. When it was our turn all she said was "hi" and "did you find everything". That was it. Thats how it is for Natives in towns like DL and GF. You stay classy GF!!

That's happened to me, too, and I'm "caucasion", at least I think I am anyway. I used to take it as the checkout girls not wanting to hit on me. I guess they were just being racist.

[82SiouxGuy]

I read in the Herald today that a Lakota band from SD was scheduled to play at the Fritz but cancelled due to lack of ticket sales. Huh? So many peolple on this site have said they would like to educate themselves more about Dakota/Lakota culture and a native entertainment group comes to GF and no one wants to see them! Just goes to prove my point that 99% of name supporters don't give a damn about NA's or Native culture. And you all know thats the truth. All they are concerned about is thier precious logo/nickname. People of Standing Rock, take note of this. Me and my family were in GF today and we were in Target shopping. When we got to the checkout we were the 3rd in line. The check out girl was this bubbly person who struck up a conversation with the 2 customers ahead of us, both caucasions. When it was our turn all she said was "hi" and "did you find everything". That was it. Thats how it is for Natives in towns like DL and GF. You stay classy GF!!

Grand Forks is known for buying tickets late, right before a show. Unless it is a major act, most tickets are sold in the last week to 10 days. Sometimes the day of show or walk-up traffic are the difference between making money and losing money. A marketing study was done approximately 5 years ago in Grand Forks that proves that. It drives most promoters nuts because they don't know if they are going to make money or lose money until the last minute. Several concerts have been canceled because promoters don't want to take the risk. This show was canceled at the beginning of that window.

Grand Forks also doesn't like to support shows by groups that they have never heard of, or don't know the music. Some really great bands have played in town with very small audiences because of that. Sometimes promoters have lost money on shows hoping that they can build an audience and make it up by bringing the band back again in the future. It also happens with theater. People like to go to what they know they like, and not risk their money on something they might not like. It is a tough town to book entertainment.

Were you actually insulted at Target? Or did you just feel "slighted" because she didn't treat you the same as the previous customers? Is it possible that she knew them? Or were they cute guys that she wanted to flirt with? Or were they friendly people that started the conversations? A lot of times people react based on the attitude that you project. But claiming that you were mistreated because the girl working at the checkout counter just did her job is really pushing it.