Nickname on Ballot at Spirit Lake

[Goon]

I am sure this has already been posted but I didnt want to wade through all the threads to check....

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/tv/video.php?video_id=125

I remember someone posting it not too long. I actually helped her a little bit with historical stuff.

[fourwindsboy]

Here's more food for thought:

Say Ron loses, the new guy puts it to a vote, and the tribe approves it.

Nickname opponents will cite this development as the closest they've gotten to victory since the nickname's adoption and use that to spur them on.

I would not hold it to the more extreme of the anti-nickname crowd to try to egg on negative stories and acts to try to renew the push to change the name even hours after we win the right to keep it.

I'm not saying that it is the fight not worth fighting, but I think both directions can have distinct advantages. I'd love to keep the nickname. I'd love to drive the tribes out of UND's hair forever.

But the one factor will always remain: Even if the nickname goes away, the voices that led this whole thing, those UND employees who spoke out about how awful the nickname was and how horrible it is to work for UND, will just find a new flag to wave against the institution. This kind of power isn't the kind that comes and, upon success, goes away moving towards equality. The taste of it is good to these people and they want more. They equate this power to the fight for equality and not for what it really is: Simply the successful pushing around of the majority for the purposes of supposedly furthering their agenda.

The problem isn't the nickname. It's these leaders who traipse about stirring up unrest and creating a sense of inequality instead of empowering the people they lead towards changing their life for the better. The nickname isn't going to better the cause or lessen the plight of the Sioux people, but their anti-nickname leaders believe that it will at least be a step in that direction. News for them is that it won't. It will simply lead to some rough times for Sioux UND students (because lets face it: Like it or not, someone is going to do something incredibly stupid. Alcohol will probably be involved. And I'll cringe when I hear about it) and then fade into obscurity.

I hate to burst your bubble but it doesn't matter what the outcome of the election is at SR or the vote at SLT, the nickname is still going to be changed! This issue is never going to die. Us nickname opponents did not make an agreement with the NCAA or whore ourselves out like some of the name supporters on the SLT with cash and/or gifts from the Englestads. And it just sickens me that the people of the SRT are going to elect a chairman based on a nickname! WOW! The repurcussions from this could be serious for the people of SR. Also, I had a feeling that the SL tribal council would allow the vote but I can't for the life of me see them giving a 30 year agreement. The talk in the community is that they won't.

[SiouxMeNow]

I hate to burst your bubble but it doesn't matter what the outcome of the election is at SR or the vote at SLT, the nickname is still going to be changed! This issue is never going to die. Us nickname opponents did not make an agreement with the NCAA or whore ourselves out like some of the name supporters on the SLT with cash and/or gifts from the Englestads. And it just sickens me that the people of the SRT are going to elect a chairman based on a nickname! WOW! The repurcussions from this could be serious for the people of SR. Also, I had a feeling that the SL tribal council would allow the vote but I can't for the life of me see them giving a 30 year agreement. The talk in the community is that they won't.

Dude - here's a crazy thought you may not be familiar with. It's called democracy - in other words - the PEOPLE decide. If 2/3rd's of the Spirit Lake people "approve" the name, it should be a done deal. Ron His Horse is Thunder is obviously very afraid of a similar vote on his reservation because AGAIN, DEMOCRACY would likely prevail but we understand this isn't how you want things to go...it's not up to Mr. Ron or YOU - but to BLAME democracy for the possible OUSTER of the current chairman based on his personal opposition to something most of the people he represents don't mind?? That's not a leader...that's someone who's looking to make his own mark at his own peoples' expense. That's what you should really be pissed about because based on Ron's track record - he's ONLY about his only political career and he'll sell "loyal supporters" like you out a heartbeat to keep his job...which he's trying to do right now...and probably will down the road - so watch out.

You have a cause 4 Winds....as hard as it might be for you to believe it - some of us respect you for it but NOTHING gets down today without compromise and unless you're willing to come to the table? YOU LOSE! As soon as UND officially drops the Sioux nickname, you "technically" win but no one will ever pay attention to the Sioux tribes in ND again - why would they? It's like if you made Kentucky Fried Chicken change it's name to "southern fried poultry" ... it's about branding and marketing you idiot! If you want to go down in history as a brief notation in the dictionary - you're doing it Is that what you really want?

In 2009 - there's a curiousity about cultural icons like "Fighting Sioux" - you should be latching onto that like GRIM DEATH hoping someone recognizes your "brand" 5 years down the road but if you get your way...if that's REALLY what you want! Prepare to pass into the "who GIVES a SH*T chapter of the American Lexicon!" Personally after all this crap - I'd vote for that...

[The Sicatoka]

And it just sickens me that the people of the SRT are going to elect a chairman based on a nickname! WOW! The repurcussions from this could be serious for the people of SR.

Mr. Murphy, the top primary election vote-getter, by more votes than second and third combined mind you, is the former tribal chair at Standing Rock.

He was a multi-term chair before His Horse is Thunder was elected. Since his time as Standing Rock Chair, Mr. Murphy was nominated for the ND State Board of Higher Education by ND Governor Hoeven. Clearly, Mr. Murphy has some standing with political figures in Bismarck and must understand how the political game in Bismarck is played.

That seems more like the people of Standing Rock are picking someone who will be able to foster better, less antagonistic, relationships with the governor's office and the legislature and other state bodies. That seems like a great opportunity for Standing Rock.

So, exactly how would any of that have "repercussions" of a "serious" nature for the people of Standing Rock?

[The Sicatoka]

... it doesn't matter what the outcome of the election is at SR or the vote at SLT, ... This issue is never going to die.

You do realize that those statements reveal you know two things (but probably haven't admitted them to yourself):

- The votes at Spirit Lake and Standing Rock don't favor your point of view.

- You are choosing to stand petulant, a sign of either irrationality or immaturity, in the face of those votes.

[redwing77]

You do realize that those statements reveal you know two things (but probably haven't admitted them to yourself):

- The votes at Spirit Lake and Standing Rock don't favor your point of view.

- You are choosing to stand petulant, a sign of either irrationality or immaturity, in the face of those votes.

For the record, I don't care either way the vote goes just as long as the vote occurs.

You see, democracy is amazing.

First of all, it works (which is more that can be said for such forms of government as dictatorship (this works, but only as long as the dictator remains in absolute control), communism, socialism, fascism, and anarchy).

Second, the process is beautiful. No one is truly happy in the process but it doesn't matter. Discontent breeds methodology. IF you don't like it, vote against it. If your efforts fail, organize a new effort to vote it down. If that continues to fail, then you'll have to find a way to survive without it.

I cannot stand the state of government in the US right now. I could go into reasons why but it doesn't matter. I voted, I spoke my mind through voting. The results didn't work in my favor this time around. Oh well. That's how it goes. I hope people who have my same or similar political philosophy organize an effort to oppose the current elected officials in the next elections and the results go in favor of my beliefs. If they again don't, then I'll learn to survive until they do (and at this rate, I'm not so positive my fellow believers have their eggs in one basket).

In any case, I find those who oppose democracy rather sad individuals who really need to get to parts of the world where it doesn't exist. Then, when they live without it, when their voice isn't heard or if it is heard, it could lead to serious trouble (imprisonment or worse), they come back here and realize "Hey! This place does have problems, but it is a great place and I can live with it if things don't go my way!"

Now, I say that having NOT lived in that situation, so I admit that it is a tad biased. However, I don't need to because I believe in the system win or lose.

[fourwindsboy]

For the record, I don't care either way the vote goes just as long as the vote occurs.

You see, democracy is amazing.

First of all, it works (which is more that can be said for such forms of government as dictatorship (this works, but only as long as the dictator remains in absolute control), communism, socialism, fascism, and anarchy).

Second, the process is beautiful. No one is truly happy in the process but it doesn't matter. Discontent breeds methodology. IF you don't like it, vote against it. If your efforts fail, organize a new effort to vote it down. If that continues to fail, then you'll have to find a way to survive without it.

I cannot stand the state of government in the US right now. I could go into reasons why but it doesn't matter. I voted, I spoke my mind through voting. The results didn't work in my favor this time around. Oh well. That's how it goes. I hope people who have my same or similar political philosophy organize an effort to oppose the current elected officials in the next elections and the results go in favor of my beliefs. If they again don't, then I'll learn to survive until they do (and at this rate, I'm not so positive my fellow believers have their eggs in one basket).

In any case, I find those who oppose democracy rather sad individuals who really need to get to parts of the world where it doesn't exist. Then, when they live without it, when their voice isn't heard or if it is heard, it could lead to serious trouble (imprisonment or worse), they come back here and realize "Hey! This place does have problems, but it is a great place and I can live with it if things don't go my way!"

Now, I say that having NOT lived in that situation, so I admit that it is a tad biased. However, I don't need to because I believe in the system win or lose.

I agree 100% with your words about democracy and I have voted many times and my guy or issue didn't pass and I have lived with it, also, big deal. This issue is different because we are asking a viable government to vote ON A NICKNAME!! Not a person for office or an issue that will have an economic or cultural impact. A NICKNAME!!! Are you kidding me! Can someone give me an example of this that has happened somewhere in the US? I think they SBofHE and the NCAA are making us look like idiots, pawns, chess peices in a stupid game and a significant number of NA's are letting them do it! That just eats me to the core. Come people of the SLT and the SRT, we're better than that!

[82SiouxGuy]

I agree 100% with your words about democracy and I have voted many times and my guy or issue didn't pass and I have lived with it, also, big deal. This issue is different because we are asking a viable government to vote ON A NICKNAME!! Not a person for office or an issue that will have an economic or cultural impact. A NICKNAME!!! Are you kidding me! Can someone give me an example of this that has happened somewhere in the US? I think they SBofHE and the NCAA are making us look like idiots, pawns, chess peices in a stupid game and a significant number of NA's are letting them do it! That just eats me to the core. Come people of the SLT and the SRT, we're better than that!

If voting on a nickname is such a small item, of so little importance, so trivial, than why does an important legislative body such as a tribal council need to get involved? An issue is as important as the people want it to be. If the citizens of the reservations want to decide the issue then the democratic way to decide it is to let them. The proper treatment isn't to force a decision on them by a their elected government.

[redwing77]

If voting on a nickname is such a small item, of so little importance, so trivial, than why does an important legislative body such as a tribal council need to get involved? An issue is as important as the people want it to be. If the citizens of the reservations want to decide the issue then the democratic way to decide it is to let them. The proper treatment isn't to force a decision on them by a their elected government.

Good point.

Maybe 4winds is saying that this issue just isn't worth it and the tribes should just drop the issue? Oh.. that would mean UND would get to keep the nickname.... I guess fourwinds would then be a hypocrite.

[82SiouxGuy]

Good point.

Maybe 4winds is saying that this issue just isn't worth it and the tribes should just drop the issue? Oh.. that would mean UND would get to keep the nickname.... I guess fourwinds would then be a hypocrite.

It's pretty simple. Either it is an important topic, which means that a democratic decision by a vote of the people would be appropriate if they choose to do it, or it is a trivial issue, which means that the tribal government probably shouldn't be wasting any time getting involved in any way. It's awfully difficult to say that it is important enough for the tribal council but the people really shouldn't bother themselves with it.

[Big A HG]

It's pretty simple. Either it is an important topic, which means that a democratic decision by a vote of the people would be appropriate if they choose to do it, or it is a trivial issue, which means that the tribal government probably shouldn't be wasting any time getting involved in any way. It's awfully difficult to say that it is important enough for the tribal council but the people really shouldn't bother themselves with it.

That's just way too logical for many people.

[BobIwabuchiFan]

I agree 100% with your words about democracy and I have voted many times and my guy or issue didn't pass and I have lived with it, also, big deal. This issue is different because we are asking a viable government to vote ON A NICKNAME!! Not a person for office or an issue that will have an economic or cultural impact. A NICKNAME!!! Are you kidding me! Can someone give me an example of this that has happened somewhere in the US? I think they SBofHE and the NCAA are making us look like idiots, pawns, chess peices in a stupid game and a significant number of NA's are letting them do it! That just eats me to the core. Come people of the SLT and the SRT, we're better than that!

Maybe, just maybe if you take the blinders off and look at what people on the reservations are probably responding to it most likely has nothing to do with the nickname and everything to do with how the current councils are treating their people. By not listening to the voice of the people and lecturing them on their motives, they are not performing their duties as a representatives of the people. Maybe, just maybe if you put yourself in the shoes of the people on your reservation who feel the nickname and the process in which the tribe originally granted the name is sacred and part of their beloved history, then you could understand the behaviors they are exhibiting by rejecting Ron His Horse is Thunder's outright disdain for the name and ultimately for his own constituents for which he labels as traitors or ignorant masses sucked in by the majority culture. I think Ron needs to have some humility and a quick lesson on how Pride comes before the fall.

I also think that the reservations benefit more from leaders who can disagree without becoming disagreeable and also understand that we all work together and sometimes compromises are made and sometimes they benefit everyone as well. I I also believe that we need some new perspectives from the tribal councils that reflect more on respecting people and their differences as opposed to dictating what it means to be NA and rejecting everything that is not NA as racist or with hidden agendas to destroy the NA culture.

BobIwabuchiFan

[redwing77]

Maybe, just maybe if you take the blinders off and look at what people on the reservations are probably responding to it most likely has nothing to do with the nickname and everything to do with how the current councils are treating their people. By not listening to the voice of the people and lecturing them on their motives, they are not performing their duties as a representatives of the people. Maybe, just maybe if you put yourself in the shoes of the people on your reservation who feel the nickname and the process in which the tribe originally granted the name is sacred and part of their beloved history, then you could understand the behaviors they are exhibiting by rejecting Ron His Horse is Thunder's outright disdain for the name and ultimately for his own constituents for which he labels as traitors or ignorant masses sucked in by the majority culture. I think Ron needs to have some humility and a quick lesson on how Pride comes before the fall.

I also think that the reservations benefit more from leaders who can disagree without becoming disagreeable and also understand that we all work together and sometimes compromises are made and sometimes they benefit everyone as well. I I also believe that we need some new perspectives from the tribal councils that reflect more on respecting people and their differences as opposed to dictating what it means to be NA and rejecting everything that is not NA as racist or with hidden agendas to destroy the NA culture.

BobIwabuchiFan

I can't speak for NA people, but I can say this:

When you are told that you cannot believe something or not to like something without questioning why, how do you react? Or maybe someone tells others what you believe and it is not what you believe? How do you react then?

Do the Spirit Lake people dislike the nickname? I don't know. Do they like it? I don't know. But there is a tendency to vote with emotion. And resentment is an emotion that can be very powerful. They could resent RHHiT and the way he's handled the issue and simply vote for the nickname because RHHiT was against it. It is a way of saying that they did not appreciate the way he handled the issue.

Now, I'm not saying that's going to happen. Nor am I saying that the vote will turn out in favor of UND. Who knows how it will turn out. But it will turn out one way or another. THAT is what matters.

[Chewey]

Yes, and if the nickname is not such a huge issue why are RHHIT and professors and other pc'ers getting so bent out of shape by it? If it's so trivial, should they be insulted by it? Of course not. One will not find logic or reasonable thought with 4 winds and his ilk.

[redwing77]

Yes, and if the nickname is not such a huge issue why are RHHIT and professors and other pc'ers getting so bent out of shape by it? If it's so trivial, should they be insulted by it? Of course not. One will not find logic or reasonable thought with 4 winds and his ilk.

But to a certain extent, I understand 4 winds.

The nickname is such a trivial issue when less than half of their kids are graduating high school.... but to drop the nickname issue would be tacit approval. So 4winds is in a bind.

[fightingsiouxfan86]

I agree 100% with your words about democracy and I have voted many times and my guy or issue didn't pass and I have lived with it, also, big deal. This issue is different because we are asking a viable government to vote ON A NICKNAME!! Not a person for office or an issue that will have an economic or cultural impact. A NICKNAME!!! Are you kidding me! Can someone give me an example of this that has happened somewhere in the US? I think they SBofHE and the NCAA are making us look like idiots, pawns, chess peices in a stupid game and a significant number of NA's are letting them do it! That just eats me to the core. Come people of the SLT and the SRT, we're better than that!

4winds I'm not sure how much you know about the history of democracy but if you do a little research you would find that no issue, large or small, is exempt from the democratic process. And how can you say that changing the nickname wouldn't have a cultural or economic impact? Are you kidding me 4winds? Do you realize that college athletics are the only major source for sports entertainment in the state? Do you know how much tourism money comes from the colleges and their athletics? And the cultural impact is pretty much impossible to miss, the entire town of Grand Forks and much of the surrounding area is flooded with Sioux and Bison logos and such. I'm not even talking about the inevitable collapse of UND Alumni support and donations which bring a hell of a lot of money into the school and the greater Grand Forks area. Even if you think the nickname issue is trivial, the fact remains that a change like that would have a huge impact on the whole community. And as for an example of something like this happening elsewhere in the US... um how about pretty much the exact same situation with the Florida Seminoles that took place a few years ago. The two major Seminole tribes in the nation backed the nickname and Florida got to keep it. If you need a few more examples to completely demolish that point I am sure I can find some. You of course have the right to form your own opinion but I would suggest you find a more intelligent way to make your points clear because your current method just makes you sound ignorant, naive, and boorish.

[Goon]

4winds I'm not sure how much you know about the history of democracy but if you do a little research you would find that no issue, large or small, is exempt from the democratic process. And how can you say that changing the nickname wouldn't have a cultural or economic impact? Are you kidding me 4winds? Do you realize that college athletics are the only major source for sports entertainment in the state? Do you know how much tourism money comes from the colleges and their athletics? And the cultural impact is pretty much impossible to miss, the entire town of Grand Forks and much of the surrounding area is flooded with Sioux and Bison logos and such. I'm not even talking about the inevitable collapse of UND Alumni support and donations which bring a hell of a lot of money into the school and the greater Grand Forks area. Even if you think the nickname issue is trivial, the fact remains that a change like that would have a huge impact on the whole community. And as for an example of something like this happening elsewhere in the US... um how about pretty much the exact same situation with the Florida Seminoles that took place a few years ago. The two major Seminole tribes in the nation backed the nickname and Florida got to keep it. If you need a few more examples to completely demolish that point I am sure I can find some. You of course have the right to form your own opinion but I would suggest you find a more intelligent way to make your points clear because your current method just makes you sound ignorant, naive, and boorish.

Yet Fourwinds boy doesn't care.

[redwing77]

Yet Fourwinds boy doesn't care.

I'd argue that most blind advocates don't.

They only care about their cause. They don't care about any information that counters their cause unless it is easily defended against.

If the cause dies for any reason, they will simply find another cause.

Its how they roll.

[Oxbow6]

I can't for the life of me see them giving a 30 year agreement. The talk in the community is that they won't.

The "voice" was overwhelming in favor of keeping the nickname when the SL community voted. I think, like most of your ilk, you listen to what you want to hear.

[Old Time Hockey]

Things seem very quiet regarding the name as of late?

Where are all the big guns on this? I hope there are people out there pushing on the governors office to halt this deadline so things can play out at Standing Rock.

[fightingsiouxfan86]

I recently had the opportunity to chat with a member of the Spirit Lake Tribe and he gave me some of the best news I have heard in a very long time!!! His name is Frank Black Cloud and he works for Spirit Lake and is not only an active member of the pro-nickname group but is also one of the founding members. He was largely involved in pushing the ballot through to vote on the nickname issue and is currently working with members of the Standing Rock Tribe to get a ballot pushed through there as well. He told me that he is confident that a ballot just like the one done at the Spirit Lake Tribe will be pushed through in the very near future, he believes it will be done before the elections take place on the 30th of September. He says that there are many supporters of the nickname that want to ensure that the outcome of this issue reflect the opinions of the majority Native American population. We also discussed the odds of the Tribal Council approving a 30-year committment and he was adamant that if the vote returns with majority support the Tribal Council will approve the contract. I understand his word is not set in stone and I don't have any additional confirmation on this information but what the hell, it sure give me some real hope! This guy seems very legit and I for one am glad to have him on our side!

[Goon]

Things seem very quiet regarding the name as of late?

Where are all the big guns on this? I hope there are people out there pushing on the governors office to halt this deadline so things can play out at Standing Rock.

They are MIA and not interested in getting involved in this fight.

[darell1976]

I recently had the opportunity to chat with a member of the Spirit Lake Tribe and he gave me some of the best news I have heard in a very long time!!! His name is Frank Black Cloud and he works for Spirit Lake and is not only an active member of the pro-nickname group but is also one of the founding members. He was largely involved in pushing the ballot through to vote on the nickname issue and is currently working with members of the Standing Rock Tribe to get a ballot pushed through there as well. He told me that he is confident that a ballot just like the one done at the Spirit Lake Tribe will be pushed through in the very near future, he believes it will be done before the elections take place on the 30th of September. He says that there are many supporters of the nickname that want to ensure that the outcome of this issue reflect the opinions of the majority Native American population. We also discussed the odds of the Tribal Council approving a 30-year committment and he was adamant that if the vote returns with majority support the Tribal Council will approve the contract. I understand his word is not set in stone and I don't have any additional confirmation on this information but what the hell, it sure give me some real hope! This guy seems very legit and I for one am glad to have him on our side!

This would be an early Christmas gift for all if this stays true. What they need to do is get everything done including the contract agreement by Oct. 1st. If something can be signed and legalized in Sept or even late this month the school board and Kelly would have to do what the tribe wants even though it sounds like they want this issue to go away.

[sioux7>5]

OK I know that this is the wrong forum but I have to ask. It is nickname related.

Myles Brand has pancreatic cancer, when he dies is there a remote chance a new NCAA head would go against this policy of Brands and let UND keep the nickname. Sorry for being morbid but I had to ask.

[krangodance]

OK I know that this is the wrong forum but I have to ask. It is nickname related.

Myles Brand has pancreatic cancer, when he dies is there a remote chance a new NCAA head would go against this policy of Brands and let UND keep the nickname. Sorry for being morbid but I had to ask.

i'm guessing there isn't enough time for the ncaa to change it's position on this matter.