The Ralph to Display Tribal Flags

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

The protest was a legitimate news angle to the story. REA payed the expenses for the supporters for this event, which actually was a contrived media event if you're honest.

(emphasis added)

Can anyone tell me what these expenses may have been? Perhaps carfare from the area? Or did they actually fly in people and put them up for the night?

JMHO, but a mileage rate for the price of gas is hardly anything to get excited about.

Then "THEY" can't bitch and we'll have a new identity that has links to the past with hopes for a idiot/PC free future!

You have opened Pandora's box. Any and every group of wacky protesters will be out demanding attention from you now that you have caved. One group will be satisfied: but "an idiot free future" is the exact opposite of what you're getting. You've powered up the large idiot electromagnet.

Why did they have to title it Protesters contest REA flag-raising. What would have been wrong with Tribal Elders and members show support for Sioux logo? It seems to me that there were more American Indians inside the arena supporting the name than standing outside protesting.

I still can't figure out why none of the news agencies that cover these protests never ask them why there aren't more protesters that come to these events and why it is always the same handful of liberal arts professors.

I think you answered your own question: the "man bites dog" angle is the small group of oddballs, not the far greater number of normal people who realize this nickname is not harming anyone. Its the same reason the wacky letter gets printed: most people know that nobody needs to be "ashamed every time they walk down the street" unless they themselves want to.

Every newspaper prints a letter like "the Martians are broadcasting to me via the fillings in my teeth" and very few "thankfully, the Boy Scouts cleaned the snow from my senior-citizen neighbor's driveway" letters.

[Fetch]

Hopefully this will end up Win-Win not Lose-Lose

I go to Devils Lake every weekend & I saw more Natives, this summer, wearing Fighting Sioux clothing, than ever before -

young & older

My Grandson was with me during the Ceremony & was really interested - I told him this is the Real Sioux, who let us use their name & that we want to Honor & Remember them & Thank them for our Name & I'm telling you he was impressed & very interested (how sad if this did not continue) - It is one of best PR opportunities for The Sioux Nations & UND

I think it was great to see

I wish the Team could give tickets to both Tribes Radio Stations - to give away (to those who will use them) & they can monitor how many are used - I bet most would be used & many will try to get them (just like they do here for concerts etc.)

But I too think it will take a vote of the People, to let us keep the name - I wonder if they had a petition, if the leadership would have a referral type vote - if they got enough signatures ?

[GeauxSioux]

While the REA is independent of UND, the lines of communication should remain open.

As was expressed in a Letter to the Editor in last Friday's issue of the Dakota Student, student associations like BRIDGES and other opposed parties attended the pre-game activities at the REA in protest, both against the nickname and to show their disapproval of the non-involvement of UND Indian Americans in the ceremony.

Can you really protest both things at once??

[fighting sue]

If the name gets dropped I don't think, as some on this forum and others have suggested, that UND can simply go nickname-less. It's not feasible for marketing and merchandising. I hope that there is a lot of student and alumni involvement throughout the re-naming process and that whatever is chosen isn't bland. I would hate to see another "Mavericks," "Wildcats," "Eagles," or the like. And, I think having a name that has to be explained in every breath -- the Norkotas, e.g. -- would just about be the worst thing. I would also hate to see something chosen unilaterally -- unilateral decisions (from any institution or individual) mostly reflect an arrogance of self and a contempt for disagreement, no matter the path.

I also agree with a previous poster that there seems to be a fear of having Sioux gear confiscated, kind of like when people say, "They're gonna take our guns away!" Not gonna happen. I would also be sad to see the Ralph lose the Sioux themes throughout. After all, you can take a jackhammer to the past, but that's not going to erase it, especially if that past is on Italian marble. However, if the name changes, I think the outside of the Ralph -- "Home of the Fighting Sioux" -- would have to go. I mean, how lame would that be?

[YaneA]

If the name gets dropped I don't think, as some on this forum and others have suggested, that UND can simply go nickname-less. It's not feasible for marketing and merchandising. I hope that there is a lot of student and alumni involvement throughout the re-naming process and that whatever is chosen isn't bland. I would hate to see another "Mavericks," "Wildcats," "Eagles," or the like. And, I think having a name that has to be explained in every breath -- the Norkotas, e.g. -- would just about be the worst thing. I would also hate to see something chosen unilaterally -- unilateral decisions (from any institution or individual) mostly reflect an arrogance of self and a contempt for disagreement, no matter the path.

I also agree with a previous poster that there seems to be a fear of having Sioux gear confiscated, kind of like when people say, "They're gonna take our guns away!" Not gonna happen. I would also be sad to see the Ralph lose the Sioux themes throughout. After all, you can take a jackhammer to the past, but that's not going to erase it, especially if that past is on Italian marble. However, if the name changes, I think the outside of the Ralph -- "Home of the Fighting Sioux" -- would have to go. I mean, how lame would that be?

I'm sure fans of the Salukis and the Geoducks (to name but two) explain all the time...It's not the worst thing in the world. A horse graphic, combined with the name Nokota, eliminates some of the "huh? what?"

[darell1976]

If the name gets dropped I don't think, as some on this forum and others have suggested, that UND can simply go nickname-less. It's not feasible for marketing and merchandising. I hope that there is a lot of student and alumni involvement throughout the re-naming process and that whatever is chosen isn't bland. I would hate to see another "Mavericks," "Wildcats," "Eagles," or the like. And, I think having a name that has to be explained in every breath -- the Norkotas, e.g. -- would just about be the worst thing. I would also hate to see something chosen unilaterally -- unilateral decisions (from any institution or individual) mostly reflect an arrogance of self and a contempt for disagreement, no matter the path.

I also agree with a previous poster that there seems to be a fear of having Sioux gear confiscated, kind of like when people say, "They're gonna take our guns away!" Not gonna happen. I would also be sad to see the Ralph lose the Sioux themes throughout. After all, you can take a jackhammer to the past, but that's not going to erase it, especially if that past is on Italian marble. However, if the name changes, I think the outside of the Ralph -- "Home of the Fighting Sioux" -- would have to go. I mean, how lame would that be?

I agree they are not going to take your Sioux gear away. If i go to a Central game in my Redskins jacket are they going to take that away..no, same with Sioux gear, its a part of history and its not like its banned in public. Also we cannot go nicknameless, i did that crap at Central when for a year we were just Grand Forks Central the school without a nickname then it was maroon and grey which at that time sounded better than just plain ol GFC but be thoughtful on the name don't rush on a stupid name and don't pick a common name...no more Mavs or Huskies. Wouldn't the WCHA be wierd on 3 teams named Huskies.

[Fetch]

I'd be willing to bet that the Ralph will never go along with a name change - so UND has to drop Fighting Sioux & we won't get to have NC$$ playoffs at the Ralph anymore (Big Deal) as far as Hockey goes - we will always be the Fighting Sioux at the Ralph & I bet they still sell Sioux gear

If the Alerus & UND want to change their Name - so be it

I still have hope this will never happen

[dakotadan]

I'd be willing to bet that the Ralph will never go along with a name change - so UND has to drop Fighting Sioux & we won't get to have NC$$ playoffs at the Ralph anymore (Big Deal) as far as Hockey goes - we will always be the Fighting Sioux at the Ralph & I bet they still sell Sioux gear

If the Alerus & UND want to change their Name - so be it

I still have hope this will never happen

UND owns the rights to the logo. If UND decides that the Ralph isn't going to use it anymore or sell items with the logo on them, that is UND's decision.

[Goon]

UND owns the rights to the logo. If UND decides that the Ralph isn't going to use it anymore or sell items with the logo on them, that is UND's decision.

Maybe the Ralp is postering. We will eventually find out. I still think if the NCAA and the various groups want the stuff taken down in the arena let them pay for it.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

I still think if the NCAA and the various groups want the stuff taken down in the arena let them pay for it.

I think you're right.

If I constructed an arena with the Blackhawks logo built into it; an arena with say, a 40-year lifespan, and five years after the Hawks had-

-allowed me to build it,

-given me the exact drawings and colors of their logo in order to build it,

-took team pictures in front of the logo built directly into my building,

-played 20-30 hockey games a year in my building (making money all the way)

then and only then then, if the Blackhawks told me for the first time that they were going to enforce their trademark rights against me and thereby attempt to compel me to undertake expensive alterations at my own expense-well, I'd tell the Hawks where they could go and what they could do with their demands.

In short, I doubt you'd find a judge that would force a third party to undergo that expense because the (long term!) tennant had previously agreed to let them use the logo, not objected for a lengthy period of time and even promoted the building with the logo. I think the judge would say that the arena had done a lot of things-and spent a lot of money-in good faith; and the University can choose to either use the building or not, but after this long period of time without objections UND can't make someone else spend money because they suddenly think a perfectly legal drawing is objectionable.

[fourwindsboy]

Great cermony at the Ralph. I saw the 14 protestors, after the editorials in the Dakota Student and the GF Herald, combined with the email sent to all UDN faculty and students....you would think if it were a worthy cause, there would be hundreds or a thousand people there. Compare this to the 100 plus reservation members at the game, they were not noticable at all. There was a very nice drum ceremony before the game...very educational. GO SIOUX!

Just curious, how was it educational?

[fourwindsboy]

Thanks 82SiouxGuy, and yes fourwindsboy, I was wondering if you thought it was appropriate for the landmark to be put up in Devils Lake, since the town isn't on the reservation. I don't care how much it cost, or who paid for them, I just wanted to know what you thought of it being there.

I didn't ever hear why the 4 landmarks were put up, other than what is in the community.

They are:

Agriculture

Tourism

Spirit Lake Tribe

Camp Grafton (i think)

I guess I was surprised considering the shoddy treatment of NA's in DL. Every response I have heard about the landmark from SLT members is pretty much just a shrug and a feeling that its about time DL does something considering about 1/3 of the their revenue comes from the rez(oops, can't use that word, offensive!), SLT.

[fourwindsboy]

Hopefully this will end up Win-Win not Lose-Lose

I go to Devils Lake every weekend & I saw more Natives, this summer, wearing Fighting Sioux clothing, than ever before -

young & older

My Grandson was with me during the Ceremony & was really interested - I told him this is the Real Sioux, who let us use their name & that we want to Honor & Remember them & Thank them for our Name & I'm telling you he was impressed & very interested (how sad if this did not continue) - It is one of best PR opportunities for The Sioux Nations & UND

I think it was great to see

I wish the Team could give tickets to both Tribes Radio Stations - to give away (to those who will use them) & they can monitor how many are used - I bet most would be used & many will try to get them (just like they do here for concerts etc.)

But I too think it will take a vote of the People, to let us keep the name - I wonder if they had a petition, if the leadership would have a referral type vote - if they got enough signatures ?

In my 5 years at UND, no one ever thanked me for letting UND use the name nor did I feel one bit honored in my time there. I did though, experience more racial prejudice than I care to recount. You know, only about a handfull of SLT members have gone to school at UND, and pretty much all of them are oppsed to the name. I wish all of my brethren could spend some time on campus and get a feel for what its like to be an NA there.

[Chewey]

In my 5 years at UND, no one ever thanked me for letting UND use the name nor did I feel one bit honored in my time there. I did though, experience more racial prejudice than I care to recount. You know, only about a handfull of SLT members have gone to school at UND, and pretty much all of them are oppsed to the name. I wish all of my brethren could spend some time on campus and get a feel for what its like to be an NA there.

Maybe most of your brethren do not suffer from the same racial paranoia and social phobia as you do. You are of the twisted mindset where so-called racial prejudice is read into everything and presumed upon all people. Maybe someone called you a derogatory name. Maybe someone looked at you cross-eyed. Maybe not enough whites attended the Pow-Wow held at the university. Maybe you got a B in a course when you think you should have gotten an A. Maybe someone cut you off driving and flipped you off and you thought it was because that person saw your tribal license plate on your car. Maybe the HP ticketed you and you believed it was because the HP saw your tribal license plate. When I worked on the Turtle Mountain Indian Reservation, there was a lot of baseless controversy about this. By the way, I experienced racial prejudice when I worked up there. By the way, all of the foregoing have happened to me, except I am white. So, all the world is racist because of your paranoia and presumptions and because your feelings may have been hurt a few times? Talk about narcissism and the employment of broad based racial prejudices. Thank God not all of your brethren are like you. Time to grow up, put on your big boy pants and start acting your age, to use a trite saying.

[Oxbow6]

In my 5 years at UND, no one ever thanked me for letting UND use the name nor did I feel one bit honored in my time there. I did though, experience more racial prejudice than I care to recount. You know, only about a handfull of SLT members have gone to school at UND, and pretty much all of them are oppsed to the name. I wish all of my brethren could spend some time on campus and get a feel for what its like to be an NA there.

Well, don't you think you're all that and a bag of chips. And no NAs have ever thanked me for the chronic use/abuse of my tax dollars to subsidize their living or thanked me for giving them free medical care...oh, but I forgot, they are entitled to all that. My bad!! Your constant use of the victimization card is truly pathetic!

[Diggler]

Just curious, how was it educational?

How about because some people learned something? Isn't that the definition of educational? What about the 5 year old who has never seen anything like what was done at the ceremony? Obviously there can be and are better ways to become educated on who, what where, when, etc. about Native Americans, but just because you didn't agree with the ceremony occurring doesn't mean you should immediately dismiss the notion that it had some educational value.

If you would have gone to Norskfest in Minot last week, you could have learned at least a small amount about Norwegian Heritage. I believe the ceremony before the game presented the same opportunity to learn a small amount about Native American Heritage.

[sioux7>5]

Good point Diggler, anything can be used for education. Every game could be an opportunity to teach and learn something about the Natvie American culture.

How about because some people learned something? Isn't that the definition of educational? What about the 5 year old who has never seen anything like what was done at the ceremony? Obviously there can be and are better ways to become educated on who, what where, when, etc. about Native Americans, but just because you didn't agree with the ceremony occurring doesn't mean you should immediately dismiss the notion that it had some educational value.

If you would have gone to Norskfest in Minot last week, you could have learned at least a small amount about Norwegian Heritage. I believe the ceremony before the game presented the same opportunity to learn a small amount about Native American Heritage.

[Siouxmama]

I guess I was surprised considering the shoddy treatment of NA's in DL. Every response I have heard about the landmark from SLT members is pretty much just a shrug and a feeling that its about time DL does something considering about 1/3 of the their revenue comes from the rez(oops, can't use that word, offensive!), SLT.

What!!??

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

Good point Diggler, anything can be used for education. Every game could be an opportunity to teach and learn something about the Natvie American culture.

Sure, anything can be educational. Can't you learn something from so many of your own experiences in life? And that includes listening to some people as they talk about their heritage as they unfurl their flag.

Unless, of course, you don't "learn" that the logo is offensive, the name is causing people to dread walking down the street, and other baseless propoganda.

Then, you haven't learned anything.

That's

the point of education.

Or should I say "

re

-education"?

Time to grow up, put on your big boy pants and start acting your age, to use a trite saying.

Some people simply will not grow up, will not accept that the universe does not center around them. Most of the time, people learn to ignore these selfish, childish individuals and they slowly withdraw from society.

Simply giving into their irrational demands to keep them quiet does nothing but empower idiots.

And that is what the NCAA has done. Requiring no proof, nothing but "my feelings are hurt" statements from

SOME

(which are given 100% weight while the feelings of the Utes, Seminoles and so many other individuals are marginalized) has resulted in people who feel totally entitled to claim ownership rights over history.

If the name gets dropped I don't think, as some on this forum and others have suggested, that UND can simply go nickname-less. It's not feasible for marketing and merchandising.

FWLIW, I believe the soccer club in Dallas purposely went to the nickname "FC Dallas", discarding their old name of the Dallas Burn. FC simply stands for "Football Club". The name is used in Germany for one of their oldest teams. Obviously the soccer league needs all the marketing they can get-I doubt that they're trying to get less merchandising and marketing opportunities.

Some people seem to believe that "no nickname" not only feasible, in some cases it's preferable to a nickname. JMHO.

[GeauxSioux]

Simply giving into their irrational demands to keep them quiet does nothing but empower idiots.

Welcome to America of the past 20+ years.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

Welcome to America of the past 20+ years.

I don't disagree, but I sure wish we could change the pattern.

[andtheHomeoftheSIOUX!!]

Talk about completely biased reporting in the student. It was ridiculous.

On another note, I don't believe we should need to thank anyone for the use of the name. And I don't believe we should need permission for the name.

Go Fighting SIOUX!!!

[Let'sGoHawks!]

Just curious, how was it educational?

All I will say is that I have never attended a Pow Wow, etc. If these things are held on campus, I never hear of them because the groups that sponsor them don't alert me that they are happening. The Ralph greatly publicized the events being held on Sunday, and I was able to observe some time honored traditions that were very impressive. The sound of the drum echoing with the tribal member's chants gives a person chills. I would say more, but am afraid you will spin it and take it out of context to meet your agenda. Can I really win no matter what my response is?

[Fetch]

FWB it is sad you don't understand or are so bitter that you don't want to see things in a different light

It is also sad that people are raised to Win all the time

As you said I feel that only a handful (minority) of Native Americans feel like you do

This could be a positive for you & future generations to let the past go (It can't be changed)

http://www.mindtools.com/CommSkll/NegotiationSkills.htm

http://www.beyondintractability.org/essay/win-lose/

Hate & hard feelings only hurt self esteem & makes it hard to move forward

http://www.more-selfesteem.com/winwin.htm

Both sides need to see the bigger picture (& both sides will benefit) I don't think being stubborn will change anything

Say we lose the name - do you feel you have won ? & how will it affect the future ? I believe you were hurt, but how can you be healed by lose lose ? or win lose ?

I think those that did the ceremony want to move on & help us all heal from the past

If the majority feel as you do - then I'm all for changing the name - but I wonder if the leadership is representing all the people ? Or is it a vocal few that are bitter like you, who want to live in the past & see this as getting even ? - I'll never feel good about a name change unless I know the majority of the people in the two nations feel it is bad for them - only hearing from a few seems unfair & will only be a lose lose for us all.

[siouxforeverbaby]

All I will say is that I have never attended a Pow Wow, etc. If these things are held on campus, I never hear of them because the groups that sponsor them don't alert me that they are happening. The Ralph greatly publicized the events being held on Sunday, and I was able to observe some time honored traditions that were very impressive. The sound of the drum echoing with the tribal member's chants gives a person chills. I would say more, but am afraid you will spin it and take it out of context to meet your agenda. Can I really win no matter what my response is?

just to point out the Wacipi Pow Wow is held every Spring on campus and is a HIGHLY publicized event. I have never gotten to attend due to my schedule on those days, but I have heard that it is a great event to attend. And in case you don't read anything on it, they normally set up a teepee outside of the Union for UNDIA Timeout Week, which is that week.