Standing Rock/Spirit Lake

[Sioux-cia]

People don't know who the Sioux people are, or what their history is because of UND's sports teams. That's way too arrogant.

Yep

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

To think that there hasn't been ongoing evaluation of the federal monies is naive.

Okay, that's fine. I don't know who is performing such evaluations. Some federal agency? The board of trustees? And is the program funded 100% with federal money? The state has no money invested?

I think its equally naive to think that ANY of these programs are free from politics. And IMHO, the politics have changed (like it or not) with the nickname decision.

I don't know how effective the NA programs are at UND.

So, shouldn't someone find that out?

I do know that 20% of NA MDs in this country are UND graduates. I do know that a large number of NA RNs in ND, SD, Montana and Minnesota are graduates of UND. Not working in the field of engineering, education etc. I don't know how many NA graduates there are from those programs.

Again, if this is a program that benefits the nation (the USA) then it should be federally funded. And I'd also say that other states would love a taste of that federal money. But the bigger question is are all of those dollars being spent wisely? Cut 5% of the money out of the medical school program, and do we suddenly have less NA docs? Or the same number but less qualified? And what would that say?

Or, do the NA med students go to other schools?

(Personally, this entire argument is a big non-starter with me. White, black, male, female, whatever: the best students should become doctors period. The higher the education needed for a function, the less Affirmative Action is important IMHO.)

I do know that it's not just NAs that can't make it in college.

Did anyone here say that ONLY NA's can't make it in college?

And if all peoples "can't make it in college", what does that say about the need for any of these programs limited to one race, gender, etc?

[Sioux-cia]

Because I don't know how effective NA programs are does not mean there isn't an ongoing evaluation of said programs. I don't know for certain but I don't think I would be wrong to say that the NA programs at UND are funded 100% by federal money.

Explain to me how the name and logo would affect any 'politics' that may be associated with the federal money funding the UND NA programs. Our esteemed Senators and Representative distanced themselves from the name and logo issue.

The NA med students have to meet the same qualification for entry to the UND med school as other students.

There is no 'special' board examinations for NA physicians. All MDs take the same tests initially and every few years (depending on their specialties) to maintain their licenses and certifications. I've worked with plenty of poorly qualified non-Native physicians so let's not take that road, ok?

No one in this thread said only NAs can't make it in college. I said NAs are not the only ones who can't. I should have said that some NAs are not the only ones who can't make it in college.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

Explain to me how the name and logo would affect any 'politics' that may be associated with the federal money funding the UND NA programs.

Federal money, no. But as noted above, these programs aren't 100% Federal. The infrastructure, buildings, etc have to come under North Dakota jurisdicition AFAIK. And the closer you get to campus, the more the logo decision DOES affect the politics. Anyone reading this board can tell which way the wind is blowing. The strident anti-nickname people aren't making the greatest amount of friends.

The NA med students have to meet the same qualification for entry to the UND med school as other students.

There is no 'special' board examinations for NA physicians. All MDs take the same tests initially and every few years (depending on their specialties) to maintain their licenses and certifications. I've worked with plenty of poorly qualified non-Native physicians so let's not take that road, ok?

I never did. Someone else brought up the 20% number as some sort of badge of effectiveness of the special programs at the University of North Dakota. I didn't say that those 20% of physicians are automatically the least qualified, much less unqualified.

Personally, I don't care what the number is. I wouldn't care if it was zero. Best doctors should "doctor"; plain and simple. Same thing with teachers. And engineers.

I should have said that some NAs are not the only ones who can't make it in college.

Either way, what does that say about the need for a special program dedicated to bringing in more NA's to the U of North Dakota? Why not just call it the program to bring in ANYONE??

Edit to the first point above in this post, and also to prior posts: My mistake. I revisited the original post that Sioux-cia made as 5:43 pm, and Federal funds were specifically mentioned. In my responses, I more or less skipped over that and comingled the federal and state dollars.

My point(s) are that North Dakota should be evaluating how effective the dedicated Native programs are doing: they should be doing it annually with each budget cycle: the idea that the logo is dropped shouldn't create some sort of "defensive" posture among the bureacrats involved with/funded by such progams that "you're just doing this out of spite", and like it or not, politics are going to play a role.

[Chewey]

Any idea as to whether a vote has been scheduled with the Spirit Lake Tribe? It seems as though that tribe has been the one closest to giving support for the nickname. Any idea on whether the tribe will clarify its 2000 resolution supporting the nickname as long as good comes from it (or something like that)? I think that's what it said but I forget right now.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

Any idea as to whether a vote has been scheduled with the Spirit Lake Tribe? It seems as though that tribe has been the one closest to giving support for the nickname. Any idea on whether the tribe will clarify its 2000 resolution supporting the nickname as long as good comes from it (or something like that)? I think that's what it said but I forget right now.

I think the (rather strong) opposition from the other tribe will affect the Spirit Lake group. Will they choose not to "stick their neck out" and just play it cool, figuring that the first tribe's opposition trumps any decision they could make? Personally, that's the way I would look at it. Why make enemies when whatever you say is irrelevant to the final decision?

[petey23]

I am about done with this as well. UND honored the great Sioux people of the past and did so with honor and respect. While there are many great Sioux people today, the leadership on the reservations does them a great disservice and are probably not worthy of being honored by UND at this point. It is the tribal leaders of today who choose to dishonor the Great Sioux warriors and leaders AND ELDERS of the past and that will be their legacy.(along with the many ongoing problems on the reservations today).

However, before the towel is thrown in, I would like to see the enrolled tribal members and anyone else of Sioux descent on the reservations and around the state polled(this can be paid for by UND or alumni(I would contribute). This vote does not have to be binding, but at the very least the tribal leaders will then be exposed as not being in touch with the people that they are supposed to represent.(I think the vote would be upwards of 75% in favor or at the very least not thinking it is an issue).

I do not favor abolishing any Native American programs at UND, but no more reverse discrimination should be allowed for slots in engineering, nursing, medical programs etc. All students will have to meet minimum requirements(GPA, ACT scores, etc.) to be able to attend UND and especially when competing against other students for desired posts, internships, etc., the positions will be awarded based on merits.

And finally, I am not in favor of having some cheesy nickname naming contest or coming up with a name to replace The Fighting Sioux at this time, I would rather be known simply as THE University of North Dakota for now and if something comes up over the course of time that makes sense to UND, the area, and the people of North Dakota then address it at that time, lets not force the issue, remember we are dealing with replacing the greatest sports team name and logo in all of college sports, lets not be hasty.. I don't mind using the Force of the North as a marketing slogan and it actually sounds pretty good as in here comes The Force of the North, THE University of North Dakota!!

Long live UND! Long live The Fighting Sioux!!

On another note, even with the name gone, does anyone think they will be a Hockey or Football game 10 years from now and not hear LETS GO SIOUX, LETS GO SIOUX?

[Oxbow6]

There is no 'special' board examinations for NA physicians. All MDs take the same tests initially and every few years (depending on their specialties) to maintain their licenses and certifications. I've worked with plenty of poorly qualified non-Native physicians so let's not take that road, ok?

Agree 100% and I have worked with some truly gifted NA Docs myself, but I think what some in this thread are trying to say is that there might be some fall out as to how UND proceeds with it's NA students in general. Right, wrong or indiffernt--there more than likely will be some "political" change in thinking at UND regarding NA students, whether that be by administration, student government or the student body as a whole. Again, you can call it reverse discrimination, hand-outs, whatever...the point is the the general "white" public in this state will probably say "enough is enough" with regards to the preceived "gifts" granted NAs at UND if and when the nickname/logo go. Not neccessarliy right, but the 2 unfortunately are tied together to some extent. The loud barking from SOME in the NA school, program (I'll let PCM fill in the blank with the correct term) is preceived by many as hypocritical. "Wanting and taking" but not liking the umbrella under which this "getting" is coming from. These are just some of the thoughts/comments that I have heard from other UND alum/associates that I come in contact with. Racist? Ignorant? Misguided? All people have, right or wrong, is their perception, which in turn becomes their reality.

[BigGame]

"Let's quit deluding ourselves that these people will be reasonable at any time. F**k 'em "

"rational thinking is not really part of the native mindset"

"..to check out the slots at the casino"

"diversity is only important to them when it is to their disadvantage."

"they could NOT find 2 QUALIFIED Indians student to give the scholarships to as their math skills were not even close to the other students applying for a slot in the engineering program."

"the tribes will be bitching that know one knows their history anymore." "Who? "

"People in this state know what their "history" has been over the past few decades"

Your right that some racist trash has been flying around, but I think in some of these statements above you may be reaching a little. I can't check on whether or not some of what has been said he in anger and frustration is true or not but if a statement is factual can it still be racist? If for example if the statement about the engineering students is accurate, then how can it be racist? You may not like it but if it is factual you really should not label it as racist, just because someone doesn't like something or is offended by it doesn't make it racist. It has been a while for me but growing up I spent a lot of time on and around several different reservations, and if I were to state some of the things I observed back then I would be called out as a racist right away in spite of telling the truth of the situation.

Here is another problem, in a cultural diversity class I took at UND I was told the first day and had it pounded into me for a semester that because I am white, inherently I was racist and that only white people (men specifically) are racist. It is very frustrating to me when the people champion the cause of fighting racism are actually perpetuating racism.

[PCM]

You know what I find disappointing about the direction the debate here has taken? For years, people on this board have been saying that American Indians have much greater issues to deal with than nicknames and logos. They bring up unemployment, drug abuse, alcoholism, infant mortality, diabetes, teen pregnancy, teen suicide, lack of education, etc. So the minute that UND's nickname and logo are in danger of going away, what do we do? We threaten to take away the very programs put in place at UND that are intended to help American Indians deal with the big problems.

So what's that make us?

[mksioux]

So what's that make us?

human.

I don't advocate cutting any programs over this. But I understand human nature. When you try to help someone, you want your help to be appreciated. You don't want that person to turn around, spit in your face, and take something you cherish. It's human nature to want to revoke that help, or at least question the help, when you perceive something like that happening. I'm not saying the analogy works in this situation, but that is the perception for many and I understand where their sentiment is coming from and I do not believe it is racism. It's human nature, with a healthy dose of emotion and frustration (and some would argue ignorance about how the programs work).

But mostly, I think it's an unpersuasive argument that makes "us" look bad. I wish people on "our side" would stop making it. Those programs simply will not get cut over this.

[Teeder11]

You know what I find disappointing about the direction the debate here has taken? For years, people on this board have been saying that American Indians have much greater issues to deal with than nicknames and logos. They bring up unemployment, drug abuse, alcoholism, infant mortality, diabetes, teen pregnancy, teen suicide, lack of education, etc. So the minute that UND's nickname and logo are in danger of going away, what do we do? We threaten to take away the very programs put in place at UND that are intended to help American Indians deal with the big problems.

So what's that make us?

PCM:

You post a lot of insightful things on there all the time. But, I must say, that last post is one of your best. Thanks for injecting some civility into this debate.

Fred

[PCM]

human.

I was thinking of a different "h" word, but your point is well stated and a good one.

[Fetch]

RIP Fighting Sioux

Before we go D1 lets have a New Name

Lame Duck President & No AD = No Leadership when we need it most

[Teeder11]

human.

I don't advocate cutting any programs over this. But I understand human nature. When you try to help someone, you want your help to be appreciated. You don't want that person to turn around, spit in your face, and take something you cherish. It's human nature to want to revoke that help, or at least question the help, when you perceive something like that happening. I'm not saying the analogy works in this situation, but that is the perception for many and I understand where their sentiment is coming from and I do not believe it is racism. It's human nature, with a healthy dose of emotion and frustration (and some would argue ignorance about how the programs work).

But mostly, I think it's an unpersuasive argument that makes "us" look bad. I wish people on "our side" would stop making it. Those programs simply will not get cut over this.

I don't disagree with you totally.

It is human nature. But, the fact that some of us would have programs revoked in retaliation, also means we hold dearer our love for the nickname and logo over the virtues and challenges of a community of people who we purport to hold in the highest esteem. Some of us on here are little disingenuous when we claim how much we honor the Sioux people through the use of their name.

[Oxbow6]

I don't disagree with you totally.

It is human nature. But, the fact that some of us would have programs revoked in retaliation, also means we hold dearer our love for the nickname and logo over the virtues and challenges of a community of people who we purport to hold in the highest esteem. Some of us on here are little disingenuous when we claim how much we honor the Sioux people through the use of their name.

There in lies the dilema. There is a small faction who think that way. As there is a small faction that thinks that there is that sentiment from most on this thread. I am not advocating cutting NA programs, but I think there will be a cry at some point from the general public as to why we are continuing to support those (NA) who feel violated/abused by us. Again, I am not saying that is the right action to take, but when there are certian percpetions, there will be some fallout by what was previously noted as getting spit in the face.

Human nature? The other "H" word per PCM I am guessing is hypocritical?? Personally, the sooner all of this is resolved the better.

[SiouxCrioux1]

You know what I find disappointing about the direction the debate here has taken? For years, people on this board have been saying that American Indians have much greater issues to deal with than nicknames and logos. They bring up unemployment, drug abuse, alcoholism, infant mortality, diabetes, teen pregnancy, teen suicide, lack of education, etc. So the minute that UND's nickname and logo are in danger of going away, what do we do? We threaten to take away the very programs put in place at UND that are intended to help American Indians deal with the big problems.

So what's that make us?

I feel that is is just a build up of what has happened for the last couple of years. How would you like if you were donating money to a program that helps Native Americans go to UND and then all of the sudden out of left field you were labeled as a "hostile and abusive" person. I know I wouldnt be too pleased. I agree that there are lots of problems among Native Americans out there today and I think its sad. And it angers me that their leaders have chosen to come after one thing they got going for them. It also angers me that we have professors calling the school they are employed by "hostile and abusive" but still collect all the "hostile and abusive" checks every month. You know all the PC nuts can spin it however they want. But the truth is that both sides need to look in the mirror. We are not 100% right on this issue but neither are the Native Americans.

[CDog]

I hardly believe UND's use of the Fighting Sioux nickname is keeping alive the history of the Sioux nation.

Personally, I think one of the problems we've had in winning this battle is the idea that we are somehow tied, or honoring, the current Sioux culture. We picked a nickname that identifies with the Sioux warrior of 150 years ago.

People don't know who the Sioux people are, or what their history is because of UND's sports teams. That's way too arrogant.

While I don't know who the Sioux people are, or what their history is because of UND's sports teams, my knowledge of them has been supplemented immensely by UND's sports teams. To wit: The PA announcement before each home sporting event concerning the Sioux and why the name was chosen, the page in the game program devoted to the name, the Fancy Dancers from the Sioux Tribe that perform at many sporting events, the chanters that have performed at many games, the drum players from the Spirit Lake tribe that perform several times a year at sporting events. All of these are examples of things I would have never seen otherwise.

Finally, UND was given permission by Tribal elders to use the name Sioux. I thought the Native American culture was based in the undying respect for their elders.

[Fetch]

http://www.accessgenealogy.com/native/trib...nfamilyhist.htm

[Sioux-cia]

When an entire race of people is judged by actions/intelligence/color/living situation/parentage, etc. of a few or even more, that's racism.

Because a professor told some one that the School of Engineering couldn't find a NA to meet the math criteria to be accepted, does not mean there are not gifted in math NAs. When I read something like that I read it as saying there are not NAs who can meet the math criteria. They just didn't happen to want to apply to UND and chose to go elsewhere. Because tribal leaders do not support the Fighting Sioux name and logo, does not mean the majority of NA's do not support the name and logo.

Don't tie the name and logo up with NA programs at UND. If you don't believe there should be NA programs because it's not equal for all or because you believe that money should be earmarked for someother issue, or what ever other reason, fine. But I don't believe the programs shouldn't exist because we can't use the Fighting Sioux name and logo.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

So what's that make us?

Someone responded with the word "human" but I was going to go with "political creatures, no different than virtually everyone on earth".

Seems like the same answer in retrospect.

...long list of medical and social ills...

At some point I think its a valid question to ask whether holding specific spots in a public university open only to a race or gender is connected to stopping diabeties. Or alcoholism. Is that the best use of tax dollars? Will Indians be the only ones who can develop solutions to these diseases?

Again, the higher the education level, the less I can get behind affirmative action.

Those programs simply will not get cut over this.

Probably not, at least not immediately. But this doesn't make people eager to expand them IMHO; and as noted previously, also makes people think about what they're costing and if they're worth it given the unending list of special "programs" being demanded.

How would you like if you were donating money to a program that helps Native Americans go to UND and then all of the sudden out of left field you were labeled as a "hostile and abusive" person.

I personally see extremely little difference between a donation and the tax dollars here. When it all comes down to it, the "want to" factor ultimately rules.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

[Here is another problem, in a cultural diversity class I took at UND I was told the first day and had it pounded into me for a semester that because I am white, inherently I was racist and that only white people (men specifically) are racist.

We're getting away from the point of this thread, but you should look at the recent happenings at the University of Delaware.

[NDSUguy]

You know what I find disappointing about the direction the debate here has taken? For years, people on this board have been saying that American Indians have much greater issues to deal with than nicknames and logos. They bring up unemployment, drug abuse, alcoholism, infant mortality, diabetes, teen pregnancy, teen suicide, lack of education, etc. So the minute that UND's nickname and logo are in danger of going away, what do we do? We threaten to take away the very programs put in place at UND that are intended to help American Indians deal with the big problems.

So what's that make us?

I totally agree.... It's almost as if some people (not the majority) feel that payment for using the nickname/logo is native american programs. I am left wondering if UND would have these programs if they would have never been the Sioux. I personally think that UND would have just as many programs with or without the logo.

No nickname should ever come in front of care helping other people. I understand your love for the Sioux logo and nickname but when all is said and done you'll love your team regardless of what they are called or not called.

[darell1976]

RIP Fighting Sioux

Before we go D1 lets have a New Name

Lame Duck President & No AD = No Leadership when we need it most

I agree that we should have a new name before we go to D1 this fall. Lets have a brand new start to a new division. We are still North Dakota, until the NCAA takes that away from us.

[Oxbow6]

When an entire race of people is judged by actions/intelligence/color/living situation/parentage, etc. of a few or even more, that's racism.

Because a professor told some one that the School of Engineering couldn't find a NA to meet the math criteria to be accepted, does not mean there are not gifted in math NAs. When I read something like that I read it as saying there are not NAs who can meet the math criteria. They just didn't happen to want to apply to UND and chose to go elsewhere. Because tribal leaders do not support the Fighting Sioux name and logo, does not mean the majority of NA's do not support the name and logo.

Don't tie the name and logo up with NA programs at UND. If you don't believe there should be NA programs because it's not equal for all or because you believe that money should be earmarked for someother issue, or what ever other reason, fine. But I don't believe the programs shouldn't exist because we can't use the Fighting Sioux name and logo.

Again, you paint with an extremely broad brush. Most in this thread are not judging the entire NA race by the actions/comments of a few NA. But if that is your perception, so be it.

I was the one who had the conversaion with the engineering prof. The point was that there was made available 2 SCHOLARSHIP slots for NAs that they were having diffuculting filling because of academic reasons and that those 2 slots limited some "other" students from gaining enterance into the program. So if you want to read into that that all NAs can't add or subtract, again that is your perception.

The NA programs should continue regardless of the logo/nickname outcome, but valid points were made prior that there might be questioning by some as to why we are continuing to support those who feel violated and disrespected by the same university they are getting an education from. Not saying that is right.