What do we honor and respect about the Sioux?

[larsensa]

I bet if the majority of people on this board were being truthful, most would admit to not having very much honor and respect for Native Americans. There are so many comments on this board that are basically "we" vs. "them" statements, etc... I am guessing I may have made some myself? I am pretty sure that one of the reasons people want to keep the name is because they don't want the Native Americans to win this 30 year school name fight that UND has had with them. When I was living in Grand Forks I heard plenty of comments about what people really thought of Native Americans, etc... and none of them pointed to honor and respect.

I have been a Sioux fan my entire life but really a fan of the hockey team which is called the Sioux. I will always be a fan of the hockey team and other athletics at UND no matter what the name is because UND is the school I attended and that will never change. It will suck if we aren't the Sioux any longer but that really is only because it is all I have ever known.

So, be honest, what do you truthfully honor and respect about the Sioux and Native Americans? If UND loses the Sioux name, what will you do then to show your honor and respect to the Sioux tribes? How will you fill the void of not being able to honor and respect the Sioux at UND events any longer?

I am asking this because I am really curious about why people really want to keep the name. I am of the belief that it is only because of tradition and nothing else. It has nothing to do with us fans wanting to honor and respect the Sioux tribes.

[Fetch]

Where have you been ?

The University of North Dakota is the home of the Fighting Sioux. UND officially adopted the name of the Fighting Sioux in the 1930

[The Whistler]

I really don't think want to blame this game, but I do have a story.

For those that remember it the Old barn had a beautiful indian painted behind the penalty box. Some of the old player pictures used that as a backdrop.

Being around 6 and watching too many cowboy and indian movies I asked my dad why there was an Indian there.

He said because that's what the team stood for being the strongest toughest fighters there were.

Now my dad has never been politically correct. But that day he did what any father should.

[yzerman19]

How about we honor them with 10% of revenues off all merchandise bearing the fighting sioux name, image or logo...

[Fetch]

You know I would like to think the Kevin Costner Movie was kinda real ( In that movie they portrayed the Sioux as Fighters against other tribes)

& If I were a Sioux I'd be Pizzed at how they got the Shaft when we all took over their country. But at some point they just have to get over it - Or is this why some (Small band of rebels) still want to get even with us & see taking away our school name as a small victory

I'm not proud of how we treated them or how they have lived since - But how they lived here & survived for many generations & how they attempted to overcome - what was insurmountable odds against them - I am proud of them

But Hey I was proud of the Vikings too back when King Olaf tried to be king of the Hill

You ever watch the Discovery show about Barbarians - Man has been fighting/ slaughtering each other since the begining of time - Sad stuff but it's our nature as a species (Like it or not)

[ScottM]

He said because that's what the team stood for being the strongest toughest fighters there were.

As well, I've always tended to view it a sign of respect for the warriors from Red Cloud and Crazy Horse's era, not the whining bedwetters running things today.

[sioux7>5]

How about we honor them with 10% of revenues off all merchandise bearing the fighting sioux name, image or logo...

I am not opposed to giving them some merchandising revenue. If they will continue to support the name and logo. But no waffleing of the money comes back to the University. But I think 10% might be a little high. Maybe 3-5% would be better. But I think that would be a reasonable solution.

[larsensa]

The answers so far haven't been about how YOU personally want to honor the Sioux. Since the name debate has been going strong for as long as I can remember, I guess I am trying to understand why we fans have fought so hard to keep it over the years. Besides tradition, why do we care so much? Native American history hasn't been something I have really spent much time thinking about. It isn't the reason I chant, Let's Go Sioux or why I have sioux hats, shirts, jerseys, stickers on my car windows, Sioux license plate frames on my car, etc... The Sioux tribe is not why I brag up our hockey team to my friends in Illinois and talk about the Sioux in many different situations. It is because our hockey team usually rocks.

For me personally, I haven't ever really thought much about the historic Sioux tribes either. Maybe there are Sioux fans that are much different than me but I would think not? It seems that people in GF tend to make sterotypical comments about Native Americans more than comments about all of the great stuff they do. I am not saying people in GF are racist but I think people make more negative comments than positive. What great stuff do the Sioux tribes do that people in GF appreciate?

Part of the problem with all of this honor and respect is also that there are still Sioux tribes in existence that have been able to possibly tarnish the respect we originally felt towards the Sioux? It seems the honor we talk about is about the historic Sioux and not current. This makes the name debate more complicated.

[Goon]

I like Fighting Sioux name because it is in honor of the Great Sioux warriors.

Two it's not the name flickertails.

[Fetch]

Yeah the Sioux have always Killed the Bison - must be what your looking for

[larsensa]

I like Fighting Sioux name because it is in honor of the Great Sioux warriors.

Two it's not the name flickertails.

It is too bad that back in the 30's the UND administrators that picked the name weren't able to look into a crystal ball to see how America would become so PC about everything.

[Fetch]

How would you & most others feel if they next want us to rename the States

Maybe we better jump on North Blizzard Or South Threshers or North Mallards or South Calvary (I'd smile if it were not so )

[Trunk Monkey]

It is too bad that back in the 30's the UND administrators that picked the name weren't able to look into a crystal ball to see how America would become so PC about everything.

and if that were the case,in my warped head I can hear the NCAA screaming, that it is discriminatory to have the Cowboy's, Saints, Fighiting Irish, Vikings etc...yet there is not one team acknowledging the heritage of the Native American culture and that there should be team names that represent them as well....

[The Sicatoka]

Forget about history and you will repeat it. History is replete with examples. Humanity lever learns. We choose to ignore or forget unpleasant chapters in history.

Humanity destroyed Rome, gave us the Huns, went on the Crusades, brought us Ghengis Khan, destroyed native North American peoples from the Aztecs to the Illini, tried to annihilate Jews from Europe, and today has Sunni killing Shi'i, Bosnian killing Serb, Hutu killing Tutsis. In each case the cause was the same. Humanity tried to destroy other humanity that was different from it.

Humanity never learns because it refuses to look upon and learn from history that is unpleasant.

"That could never happen again," is a phrase that I am sure has echoed through history in reference to genocide.

Some people disagree with the moniker at the University of North Dakota as insensitive or oppressive, or "hostile and abusive". I believe those people are missing the point.

When I hear "Fighting Sioux" I hear man's inhumanity to man. I hear the story of killing people because they are different because I know the history of the Sioux. I hear of people and true Warriors standing up against genocide.

Maybe if more people knew and understood "Fighting Sioux" in the 1930s and 1940s the atrocities of World War II would have been stopped sooner. Maybe if more people knew and understood "Fighting Sioux" in the 1990s the genocide in the Balkans and Africa draws more attention and is drawn to a conclusion.

Maybe if more people understood who the "Fighting Sioux" and the (real) "Fighting Illini" and the "Seminoles" are, maybe we could use those words to rally a true change in human history.

"Fighting Sioux" is a harsh reminder to all of us of the inhumanity that humanity can lay upon itself.

Removing the moniker would merely serve to again shield our eyes from an unpleasant chapter in the history of humanity rather than having to face a constant reminder and learn from the mistakes of humanity's history.

What do I do to honor the "Fighting Sioux"?

I remember them, and how they got here by fighting against inhumanity and genocide.

The only sad part? Some people will hear it only as a slogan off of a jersey.

[larsensa]

Since so many here seem to feel like the current Sioux tribes have changed greatly since the days of the historic Sioux tribes, maybe we should look at the next three years in a completly different way. The Sioux tribes now have three years to earn UND's honor again! The current Sioux tribes haven't been so honorable to UND. They haven't supported our school in this fight. UND spent $1M to continue to honor them. That money could've been spent elsewhere had the Sioux tribes given the support we needed right when the NCAA put UND on the list. If the Sioux don't make an effort now to regain our honor and respect, UND should decide not to keep the name. Seriously.

It should be an honor for anyone to have a school named after them. I have said plenty of times that donors give tons of money to universities to get their names on buildings and UND gave this honor to Sioux tribes for free.

Let's see if the current Sioux tribes earn the right to have UND continue to honor them. Anyone else have any thoughts about this?

[The Sicatoka]

Anyone else have any thoughts about this?

Ya mean like ....

http://siouxsports.com/forums/index.php?s=...st&p=281634

[redwing77]

Forget about history and you will repeat it. History is replete with examples. Humanity lever learns. We choose to ignore or forget unpleasant chapters in history.

Humanity destroyed Rome, gave us the Huns, went on the Crusades, brought us Ghengis Khan, destroyed native North American peoples from the Aztecs to the Illini, tried to annihilate Jews from Europe, and today has Sunni killing Shi'i, Bosnian killing Serb, Hutu killing Tutsis. In each case the cause was the same. Humanity tried to destroy other humanity that was different from it.

Humanity never learns because it refuses to look upon and learn from history that is unpleasant.

"That could never happen again," is a phrase that I am sure has echoed through history in reference to genocide.

Some people disagree with the moniker at the University of North Dakota as insensitive or oppressive, or "hostile and abusive". I believe those people are missing the point.

When I hear "Fighting Sioux" I hear man's inhumanity to man. I hear the story of killing people because they are different because I know the history of the Sioux. I hear of people and true Warriors standing up against genocide.

Maybe if more people knew and understood "Fighting Sioux" in the 1930s and 1940s the atrocities of World War II would have been stopped sooner. Maybe if more people knew and understood "Fighting Sioux" in the 1990s the genocide in the Balkans and Africa draws more attention and is drawn to a conclusion.

Maybe if more people understood who the "Fighting Sioux" and the (real) "Fighting Illini" and the "Seminoles" are, maybe we could use those words to rally a true change in human history.

"Fighting Sioux" is a harsh reminder to all of us of the inhumanity that humanity can lay upon itself.

Removing the moniker would merely serve to again shield our eyes from an unpleasant chapter in the history of humanity rather than having to face a constant reminder and learn from the mistakes of humanity's history.

What do I do to honor the "Fighting Sioux"?

I remember them, and how they got here by fighting against inhumanity and genocide.

The only sad part? Some people will hear it only as a slogan off of a jersey.

Well put, Sic.

[larsensa]

Ya mean like ....

<a href="http://siouxsports.com/forums/index.php?s=...st&p=281634" target="_blank">http://siouxsports.com/forums/index.php?s=...st&p=281634</a>

I must be drunk because I actually read that great post by IRA Murphy! I guess I am getting old or something?

[larsensa]

What do I do to honor the "Fighting Sioux"?

I remember them, and how they got here by fighting against inhumanity and genocide.

The only sad part? Some people will hear it only as a slogan off of a jersey.

I think it is probably the majority don't you? That it is only a mascot and logo? Just watch Jay Walking on Jay Leno when he asks people about history, etc.. Most people don't care about the historical meaning of things, etc..

[PCM]

This article describes very well the people that the Fighting Sioux name and logo are intended to honor and respect.

Vernon Ashley bends his 6 ft. 3 in. frame in two over his mother's tombstone on the Crow Creek reservation. He's tearing up the tall grass crowding her memory.

"Just a shame we don't keep these graves up," he says.

Ashley says the cemetery is one of many things that need attention at Crow Creek. Just as his childhood home is gone, he says the reservation of his youth has disappeared.

The Indians shipped here after the 1862 war had nothing, but he says his people were honest and hardworking. Ashley says things are different now, and he pins the blame on the tribal government

"They've lost all principles. They run it like dictators," he claims.

The reservation is almost $35 million in debt. Ashley says he's found many examples of wasteful, possibly fraudulent, spending. He says in one case, the tribal council paid off the gambling debt of one of its members. He says the leaders of his boyhood would never have done that.

"They were not educated men, but the one thing I said - they were honest," Ashley says. "They were dedicated to helping their people. They wouldn't take a dime if it wasn't theirs. But we lost that."

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

Maybe if more people understood who the "Fighting Sioux" and the (real) "Fighting Illini" and the "Seminoles" are, maybe we could use those words to rally a true change in human history.

One thing I will add: remember that many of the tribes that used "Illiniwek" as a word that described "all of mankind" were killed off by other Indian tribes. I'm not trying to deny that the coming of the Europeans changed their lives also; but many people today labor under the misimpression that the only killing that ever took place was perpetrated upon Indians by Europeans.

[The Whistler]

One thing I will add: remember that many of the tribes that used "Illiniwek" as a word that described "all of mankind" were killed off by other Indian tribes. I'm not trying to deny that the coming of the Europeans changed their lives also; but many people today labor under the misimpression that the only killing that ever took place was perpetrated upon Indians by Europeans.

There you go trying to inject some facts into the debate.

[BobIwabuchiFan]

The whole process was almost sickening...We have the attorney general telling the public that he is optimistic about the process he just got us and that we need to convince the tribal councils to provide us the use of the name going forward. Why did we even go down this process a year ago when this is all we were going to get? What happened to making the NCAA force us to lose the name rather than allow them to continue their disregard for their own contracts and policy? Why not stick it to the NCAA and let them divulge the information they wished wouldn't be divulged? Sure, we would have won the case and set precedent and most likely the NCAA would have rewritten the rules, but damn it at least we know who was really to blame for the name change@! Even if after 3 years we get the use of the name, its subjective use is up to every new tribal council - Christ, you might as well pick a new name now and just stop the suffering.

I also don't believe the tribes understand what they are going to get...Basically, the majority culture is going to ignore or forget the American Indian and since it will be out of sight and out of mind, do not count on the culture we have today really giving a damn about the indians or the reservation...Do the tribes understand that this is the probable outcome should we eliminate the name? Sadly, it will be too late when they do and thus we will become just like the rest of the PC universities that deal with Indians with the silent form of racism called low expectations.

Lastly, we need to change the name to something that reflects the majority and not a minority which will play the victim card everytime someones feelings are hurt. I would recommend going with the Roughriders as they represent the best of North Dakota fighting for America in Cuba with the most likeable President of the 20th century, Teddy Roosevelt. What's everyones thoughts on that one?

PS I will buy enough Sioux Jerseys to last my family for at least 10 generations and I will continue to refer to the teams as the Fighting Sioux until the NCAA tells me I'm not allowed to do that!!!!

BobIwabuchiFan

[Stone Buddha]

In our country's history, Indian people have always been depicted as warlike savages because this characterization allowed the Europeans to wipe them out. It was genocide. The U.S. Army and bands of heavily armed "settlers" marched across the country and killed most of the Indians and rounded up the rest. Indians were no more warlike than any other group of people -- it was a convenient stereotype that was used to justify and make it Politically Correct to kill Indians. That is one reason that American Indians object when those historical stereotypes are used today.

The second reason is that the stereotype hurts the current generation. If all of you have the idea in your brains that Indian people are noble savage warriors - reinforced by thousands of sports images -- are you going to hire an Indian as a computer programmer, or go to an Indian accountant or dentist? Nope.

[PCM]

If all of you have the idea in your brains that Indian people are noble savage warriors - reinforced by thousands of sports images -- are you going to hire an Indian as a computer programmer, or go to an Indian accountant or dentist? Nope.

How do you know what all of us have in our brains?