Negotiated Settlement?

[GeauxSioux]

If the two sides came to an agreement so that both sides could come away with something, what would be the most that you would be willing to give up?

A thought crossed my mind today. Hey, I can have one every once and a while.

What if UND was able to retain the name for hockey, thus allowing the Ralph to not have to make any changes at all? All other sports would have to change or just be known as North Dakota with an interlocking "ND" on the uniforms. Since some folks think "Force of the North" is more than just a slogan, maybe that would be the name for all UND sports with the exception of hockey.

[andtheHomeoftheSIOUX!!]

If the two sides came to an agreement so that both sides could come away with something, what would be the most that you would be willing to give up?

A thought crossed my mind today. Hey, I can have one every once and a while.

What if UND was able to retain the name for hockey, thus allowing the Ralph to not have to make any changes at all? All other sports would have to change or just be known as North Dakota with an interlocking "ND" on the uniforms. Since some folks think "Force of the North" is more than just a slogan, maybe that would be the name for all UND sports with the exception of hockey.

It is an interesting idea. Though I want UND to be able to continue using the name and logo across the board. Having said that, I don't think the NCAA would go for it. Hockey is UND's highest profile sport and the sport with the largest fan base. That in itself is significant in addition to the fact that because of that, people would likely continue to call all the other teams the "Fighting Sioux".

Go Fighting Sioux!

[mikeypat15]

I still think just dropping the "fighting" from our name would be a huge step in the NCAA's view, ever think that the two schools that have the most problems with their names each have "fighting in their name; fighting sioux, and fighting illini. Maybe that is a reason they think it is hostile?

[elkman]

If the two sides came to an agreement so that both sides could come away with something, what would be the most that you would be willing to give up?

A thought crossed my mind today. Hey, I can have one every once and a while.

What if UND was able to retain the name for hockey, thus allowing the Ralph to not have to make any changes at all? All other sports would have to change or just be known as North Dakota with an interlocking "ND" on the uniforms. Since some folks think "Force of the North" is more than just a slogan, maybe that would be the name for all UND sports with the exception of hockey.

I think the writing is on the wall. We dont have the tribes support for the use of the name and logo.The NCAA will fight us until they win. Other schools wont play us. With the move to D1 the school does not need this on its plate.I think the name will be gone within the next year or two.

[BobIwabuchiFan]

I'm sorry, but I've got to disagree with elkman...We are prosecuting these guys using the ND state laws in a ND state court with a UND judge and UND attorneys for the plaintiff and defendant...If that wasn't enough, we also have the supreme court of ND should we win and the NCAA decides to appeal that is filled with UND law graduates! Lastly, we will never again get tribal council support, but if you polled the actual tribe you would see things differently - also, who wants tribal council support anyway because they change their minds every two days anyway and we would be bipolar trying to gauge support on any given day. Let the court decide and we'll have to live with it!

BobIwabuchiFan

[The Sicatoka]

No, we run the courts until we prove the NCAA breeched contract. Don't kid yourselves, as much as the PC group of university presidents that triggered all of this loves what the NCAA is doing to us they also fear that they could be next and need someone to reign in Myles and the Executive Committee going outside of the stated rules of the NCAA constitution.

Get the breech victory in hand.

Then, with that victory in hand, make "last call" to the tribes.

Part of last call would be a friendly view of their future as stated here. That's not a threat (because there's no direct action), it's simple reality in the "cause de jour" world of PC politics and academic zealotism.

If they don't want us, we don't need them, and the hastles that come with (like this lawsuit).

[Sioux-cia]

I totally disagree with just keeping the Fighting Sioux name and logo for only Hockey. What are we saying about our other sports? They're second class and aren't important enough to keep/use the same name as hockey? Why are we moving to D1? I know that's not what you're saying but that's the message that will be sent.

Removing 'Fighting' from our name is not the only hostile and abusive part of our name and logo (per the NC$$ and the zealots), it the name Sioux and the logo, an Indian head. They're not going to be happy until we're know as the 'Whatchamacall'ems'. I believe if we called ourselves North Dakota, some fool and his followers will object because the name is Native American.

This has to be resolved in a court of law. After we win, WE can decide if, when or how we want to change our name and/or logo.

[Sioux-cia]

Then, with that victory in hand, make "last call" to the tribes.

Part of last call would be a friendly view of their future as stated here. That's not a threat (because there's no direct action), it's simple reality in the "cause de jour" world of PC politics and academic zealotism.

If they don't want us, we don't need them, and the hastles that come with (like this lawsuit).

I disagree. We don't have Native American programs so we can keep/use the Fighting Sioux name and logo. We have them because our institution is in North Dakota and it's the right thing to do. We offer Native American programs so NAs can get an education, so they can shed the cloak of 'victim', so they can move forward. Hopefully, they go back to their reservations and help fight alcoholism, promote health and education, and stop the vicious cycle of 'us against them'.

[Chewey]

I disagree. We don't have Native American programs so we can keep/use the Fighting Sioux name and logo. We have them because our institution is in North Dakota and it's the right thing to do. We offer Native American programs so NAs can get an education, so they can shed the cloak of 'victim', so they can move forward. Hopefully, they go back to their reservations and help fight alcoholism, promote health and education, and stop the vicious cycle of 'us against them'.

I agree in principle. However, the programs have not worked in the last 50 years and the problems on the reservations have only gotten worse. The victim mentality is still pervasive. Perhaps the dollars could be better spent elsewhere (Hmm, where have I heard that before?)?

[Sioux-cia]

I agree in principle. However, the programs have not worked in the last 50 years and the problems on the reservations have only gotten worse. The victim mentality is still pervasive. Perhaps the dollars could be better spent elsewhere (Hmm, where have I heard that before?)?

Noted. I just don't think the two issues, our name and logo/Native American programs, should be dependent on the other.

[kvinbe]

In summary: (1) The origins of the "Fighting Sioux" name are dubious at best. (2) The NCAA's moral high-ground is nothing but a house of cards. (3) I've been a supporter of retaining the name and using it as a tool for a positive educational end. (4) Its' now become a national issue that is no longer in any way rational, and in which people take sides based on prejudice without any actual knowledge of the circumstances. (5) By continuing the fight to retain the name, UND is now coming dangerously close to tarnishing its national image and subsequently having its student-athletes punished. (6) For reasons that have nothing to do with caving to the tyranny of the NCAA, and for reasons that have everything to do with maintaining the superior standards of UND and ensuring the best playing field possible for UND student-athletes, it's time to change the name. Our future UND student-athletes deserve only the best opportunities at what has always been a top-notch university.

So, yes, screw you to Myles Brand and the NCAA, but it's time to make the change.

[sioux7>5]

In summary: (1) The origins of the "Fighting Sioux" name are dubious at best. (2) The NCAA's moral high-ground is nothing but a house of cards. (3) I've been a supporter of retaining the name and using it as a tool for a positive educational end. (4) Its' now become a national issue that is no longer in any way rational, and in which people take sides based on prejudice without any actual knowledge of the circumstances. (5) By continuing the fight to retain the name, UND is now coming dangerously close to tarnishing its national image and subsequently having its student-athletes punished. (6) For reasons that have nothing to do with caving to the tyranny of the NCAA, and for reasons that have everything to do with maintaining the superior standards of UND and ensuring the best playing field possible for UND student-athletes, it's time to change the name. Our future UND student-athletes deserve only the best opportunities at what has always been a top-notch university.

So, yes, screw you to Myles Brand and the NCAA, but it's time to make the change.

I do not agree with you at all. I think it is a good thing to stand up to groups like the NCAA and say No to them. They are just like a school yeard bully. They will always get their way untill someone punches them in the damn mouth. I think UND winning this lawsuit would be just that. I nice punch in the face to the NCAA.

[The Sicatoka]

We don't have Native American programs so we can keep/use the Fighting Sioux name and logo.

You're right. One isn't directly tied to the other.

However, my willingness to make an extra effort to help out a person or group directly relates to their willingness to show good will back toward me.

Expect no further or future heroic efforts is the simple message. And it most likely wouldn't just be me.

[Chewey]

I do not agree with you at all. I think it is a good thing to stand up to groups like the NCAA and say No to them. They are just like a school yeard bully. They will always get their way untill someone punches them in the damn mouth. I think UND winning this lawsuit would be just that. I nice punch in the face to the NCAA.

Very well said. Maybe it's the NC00's reputation and image that is getting tarnished? It is to the publilc for sure. And UND's image? If one does not do as the PC jack boots want, one's image is going to be tained with the same group of PC Jackboots? That's a bit like saying the Nazis are going to be mad at you if you don't wear your special patch. I understand your points but I disagree with them entirely.

[Goon]

I do not agree with you at all. I think it is a good thing to stand up to groups like the NCAA and say No to them. They are just like a school yeard bully. They will always get their way untill someone punches them in the damn mouth. I think UND winning this lawsuit would be just that. I nice punch in the face to the NCAA.

I agree as well.

[Goon]

Maybe it's the NC00's reputation and image that is getting tarnished? It is to the publilc for sure. And UND's image? If one does not do as the PC jack boots want, one's image is going to be tained with the same group of PC Jackboots? That's a bit like saying the Nazis are going to be mad at you if you don't wear your special patch. I understand your points but I disagree with them entirely.

NCAA = Jack Booted Thugs

[GeauxSioux]

I totally disagree with just keeping the Fighting Sioux name and logo for only Hockey. What are we saying about our other sports? They're second class and aren't important enough to keep/use the same name as hockey? Why are we moving to D1? I know that's not what you're saying but that's the message that will be sent.

Removing 'Fighting' from our name is not the only hostile and abusive part of our name and logo (per the NC$$ and the zealots), it the name Sioux and the logo, an Indian head. They're not going to be happy until we're know as the 'Whatchamacall'ems'. I believe if we called ourselves North Dakota, some fool and his followers will object because the name is Native American.

This has to be resolved in a court of law. After we win, WE can decide if, when or how we want to change our name and/or logo.

I believe that we would win in court, but I'm skeptical that it will ever get there. I think the NCAA has too much to lose and won't want to see it get there and therefore will try to settle. They don't have a solid foundation for their edict and they don't want their dirty laundry aired in court.

My reason for breaking hockey out in this negotiation exercise is the cost of changing all of the logos throughout the Ralph and the powers that be won't allow hockey to change during a negotiation. The football team already has the interlocking ND on the helmet and just a small logo on the front of the jersey. I'm not advocating that football make the change, this is purely a speculative "what could you stomach" exercise. Additionally, I don't look down at the other sports as second-class sports. You can probably tell by my past posts, that I'm not a "hockey only" person. I have an interest in just about all things UND.

My vote is that UND wins in court and we keep the Sioux name and logo.

[ScottM]

You're right. One isn't directly tied to the other.

However, my willingness to make an extra effort to help out a person or group directly relates to their willingness to show good will back toward me.

Expect no further or future heroic efforts is the simple message. And it most likely wouldn't just be me.

Precisely.

[Goon]

I believe that we would win in court, but I'm skeptical that it will ever get there. I think the NCAA has too much to lose and won't want to see it get there and therefore will try to settle. They don't have a solid foundation for their edict and they don't want their dirty laundry aired in court.

My reason for breaking hockey out in this negotiation exercise is the cost of changing all of the logos throughout the Ralph and the powers that be won't allow hockey to change during a negotiation. The football team already has the interlocking ND on the helmet and just a small logo on the front of the jersey. I'm not advocating that football make the change, this is purely a speculative "what could you stomach" exercise. Additionally, I don't look down at the other sports as second-class sports. You can probably tell by my past posts, that I'm not a "hockey only" person. I have an interest in just about all things UND.

My vote is that UND wins in court and we keep the Sioux name and logo.

I think that UND wouldn't have gone to court unless the legal team thought they had a good chance of winning the lawsuit, I can't see them wasting money unless the University had a good case, which I believe UND does... Also, I believe the NCAA has pushed itself into a corner and have to see this thing out, if the NCAA loses, maybe the organization ask Brand to step down. I am hoping that once the NCAA is slapped they will back off and leave UND alone, I don't think a vocal minority should dictate what happens at UND, its Bravo Siera in my opinion... I can't imagine the NCAA having an unlimited amount of money to just wait UND out... I think we can't give in to P.C. pressure and have to see this all the way in. The logo should be preserved.

[PCM]

(5) By continuing the fight to retain the name, UND is now coming dangerously close to tarnishing its national image and subsequently having its student-athletes punished.

So admitting that UND is "hostile and abusive" to American Indians and that the NCAA was right all along would do nothing to tarnish the university's national image?

I would much prefer to see facts on how UND actually treats American Indians become the public record in a court of law than to allow the NCAA and other groups smear the university with their lies.

[Sioux-cia]

Additionally, I don't look down at the other sports as second-class sports. My vote is that UND wins in court and we keep the Sioux name and logo.

[Sioux-cia]

You're right. One isn't directly tied to the other.

However, my willingness to make an extra effort to help out a person or group directly relates to their willingness to show good will back toward me.

Expect no further or future heroic efforts is the simple message. And it most likely wouldn't just be me.

I think that we can all agree there are a small number of 'zealots', NA and non NA, that are behind the name change agenda. As polls have proven, the majority of Native Americans do not object, do support or do not have an opinion regarding NA sports names/logos/mascots. Why throw the baby out with the bath water??

[GeauxSioux]

Back atcha

[darell1976]

Maybe the NCAA thought that no school would challenge them in court as sort of a bluff now that UND did, they are trying to settle out of court because they know what they did was IMO stupid and not thoughtout very well. One they came out with the list of schools they thought these schools must comply or else. But when they first starting to allow the schools to come off that list their credibility of being a "bully" to big schools deminished greatly so they picked on the little schools like William and Mary, IUP, and especially UND but when UND said we are taking your butt to court they know they messed up with them. NCAA your nothing when someone stands up to you. So put your tail between your legs and run the other way cause the Sioux are going to kick your a$$!!

[Tommiejo]

Maybe the NCAA thought that no school would challenge them in court as sort of a bluff now that UND did, they are trying to settle out of court because they know what they did was IMO stupid and not thoughtout very well. One they came out with the list of schools they thought these schools must comply or else. But when they first starting to allow the schools to come off that list their credibility of being a "bully" to big schools deminished greatly so they picked on the little schools like William and Mary, IUP, and especially UND but when UND said we are taking your butt to court they know they messed up with them. NCAA your nothing when someone stands up to you. So put your tail between your legs and run the other way cause the Sioux are going to kick your a$$!!

AMEN TO THAT! Second, the NCAA doesn't want it's dirty laundry air out in public & to me that's the only reason if any that they want to settle out of court that's what I think on that bit. Now if that happens great if not we'll just have to wait & see like everybody else.