Sioux/Winona State

[mksioux]

I give much credit to NDSU for an excellent year, but I just don't agree that they're already light years ahead of UND. If so, then I guess SDSU must be, also, since they apparently gave the Bison all they could handle, and also had a nice year in I-AA (couldn't beat Northern Iowa, though ). The recruiting disadvantage is a fact, but it will be temporary, and it can be compensated for by recruiting some different areas, such as Nebraska (stealing some of those high-end players who previously may have gone to UNO), Canada, Colorado, etc. The football program at UND is in very good shape as it heads into the transition into I-AA. IMO the challenge Dale Lennon faces now is far less than what Roger Thomas faced in 1986.

Good points. Hopefully UND will be able to make up ground in short order.

[mksioux]

The Bison had a great season and were definitely a very good football team who would have done a lot of damage in the playoffs this year, but I'm not sure how you can say their season was "head and shoulders better than UND's"? I just think the comparison of the two is silly.

They are in a different division and they have more scholarships.

I would hate to see what you would say about UND's season if they had went 5-5 or worse.

I thought UND had a great season. I'm not complaining about it at all. I'm just saying comparing what UND did to what NDSU did - particuarly against Minnesota - NDSU's season was more impressive. Maybe "head and shoulders" was a bit of hyperbole.

[Eskimos]

I thought UND had a great season. I'm not complaining about it at all. I'm just saying comparing what UND did to what NDSU did - particuarly against Minnesota - NDSU's season was more impressive. Maybe "head and shoulders" was a bit of hyperbole.

I think that is the point, you can't compare the two.

Both had great seasons in different divisions........enough said.

[Vegas_Sioux]

You forgot no beer.

And pushing the student section all the way into the corner so 3 WSU fans could sit there

[siouxforeverbaby]

And pushing the student section all the way into the corner so 3 WSU fans could sit there

No crap, we wanted to fill in those rows, but a security guard came down and stood there for the entire game to keep any Sioux fan that was not suppose to be there from sitting there. 7 rows and three fans is stupid I don't care what team they cheer for just fill up the section. Especially since there was fans higher up that would have gladly moved down, i think.

[The Sicatoka]

Random Observations after reading through this:

Fargo is sure of what it can achieve, to a fault. Grand Forks is sure of what it can't achieve, to a fault. Grand Forks could take a lesson in confidence from Fargo. (Those tech jobs didn't appear in Fargo by accident. They believed and maybe even overreached. GF needs to start believing in what it can do. The flood should have taught that lesson, but it still hasn't sunk in in some quarters.)

Massey's strength of schedule has NDSU (137) just 11 slots ahead of UND (148), of over 700 teams listed, so please don't tell me about "most difficult NDSU schedule ever". A watered down NCC (no UNC, no xDSUs), with DI-AA UNI and Winona State as non-conference, was nearly as good.

As far as "best Bison team ever", that's disrespecting the abilities of that (yes, I'll say it) Bison dynasty in the 1980s and what they could do. Those teams were powerful. Are the Bison very good this year. Yes. Are they believing a little of their own self-generated hype. Probably.

Why'd only 5000-ish come to The Al Saturday? Simple. 49-2. I almost didn't go for that reason. I saw WSU v. Wayne State on FSN-North on Friday night and knew that their run defense wasn't going to stand up to UND's offensive line and that their pass blocking schemes hadn't improved. (Ask that QB's wrist.)

Finally, never make the mistake of believing that today is the way it's always going to be. Using today as the reference point to how the future must turn out is an excuse to not do anything. Plus assuming that assumes that you won't slide down either. Set a stretch goal. Dream big, or go home.

[HockeyMom]

During the World Juniors- fans were encouraged to sit in the lower bowl for the games that didn't sell many tickets. I would have liked it if people did move closer to the 50 yard line and down closer to the field. I was waiting for the students to get up and move......

[siouxforeverbaby]

During the World Juniors- fans were encouraged to sit in the lower bowl for the games that didn't sell many tickets. I would have liked it if people did move closer to the 50 yard line and down closer to the field. I was waiting for the students to get up and move......

had two guards sitting there to keep us from it and the guy kept saying how the ncaa guys were right there. I wanted to say screw them, but decided to be nice.

not an excuse i know, but just saying that there is a reason to why we didn't.

[NanoBison]

Random Observations after reading through this: ...... Massey's strength of schedule has NDSU (137) just 11 slots ahead of UND (148), of over 700 teams listed, so please don't tell me about "most difficult NDSU schedule ever"...

You mean that same rating here, which shows us ranked #1 in DI-AA (we're the first one on the list)...

Can you please explain how it was NOT the most difficult schedule the school has ever played?

.... A watered down NCC (no UNC, no xDSUs), with DI-AA UNI and Winona State as non-conference, was nearly as good....

Then perhaps it would be wiser for your school to remain in the NCC and quit with this foolish move up to DI-AA?

I didn't think so...

Why'd only 5000-ish come to The Al Saturday? Simple. 49-2. I almost didn't go for that reason. I saw WSU v. Wayne State on FSN-North on Friday night and knew that their run defense wasn't going to stand up to UND's offensive line and that their pass blocking schemes hadn't improved. (Ask that QB's wrist.)

That's a hell of an excuse to not go and support your team. Even when we played Concordia-St. Paul, we had many butts in the seats... including my own. Made it to every home game and even paid for tickets when I could have got in free. (Better seats...)

[Diggler]

Students didn't move because UND didn't want them behind the Winona bench. They wanted to kiss up to the NCAA as much as possible and having the students behind the Winona bench ripping the team wasn't the best way to do that. At least that is what students in line were told by security and what Mike Schepp said. The students would've moved if they had been allowed to.

[LeftyZL]

You mean that same rating here, which shows us ranked #1 in DI-AA (we're the first one on the list)...

Can you please explain how it was NOT the most difficult schedule the school has ever played?

You do realize that The Sicatoka was comparing strength of schedule involving all of the 700 schools in the NCAA and you come and throw out the fact that NDSU is ranked #1 in the Massey Ratings for 1-AA...Good Job.

As for explaining how NDSU's schedule wasn't the most difficult, here goes nothing:

NDSU's toughest opponent, records-wise, finished at 7-4. Georgia Southern, known around the D1-AA football world, had one of it's worst seasons that I can recall and finished 3-8. Ball State, a D1-A opponent, finished at 4-7. Their 4 wins came against teams with a combined record of 9-35. Minnesota, another D1-A opponent, had a record of 6-6. If you can honestly tell me that the Iowa team Minnesota beat on Saturday was the same team that was once ranked in the top 10 in the country, then I'm all ears for that one. Anyone with any knowledge of the game knows that Iowa gave up on their season. The best team the Gophers beat besides NDSU, records-wise, was Kent. And they finished at 6-5 in the mighty Mid-American Conference. And Kent is in the same conference was Ball State. South Dakota State lost to a D-3 opponent. Concordia-SP was a D-2 opponent that finished 5-6 in the NSIC. That is the same league that Winona State belongs to, which UND beat by a combined score of 91-2 this year.

I'm done now. I have better things to do than look up every team that NDSU played. But, you get my point. NDSU had a great season. I've said that before in other threads. On paper, their schedule looked tough before the season started. But, in the end, it's only a decent schedule IMO. As I've said elsewhere on this board too, NDSU had no way to control this and played the hand they were dealt. Any NDSU fan who disagrees with that is delusional, as is any UND fan who disagrees that NDSU didn't have a great season. End of Story.

[NanoBison]

But, in the end, it's only a decent schedule IMO. As I've said elsewhere on this board too, NDSU had no way to control this and played the hand they were dealt. Any NDSU fan who disagrees with that is delusional, as is any UND fan who disagrees that NDSU didn't have a great season. End of Story.

You're entitled to your opinion, but I think you're overly biased, and your comparisons are mute.

I'm done now.

Thank god.

[LeftyZL]

You're entitled to your opinion, but I think you're overly biased, and your comparisons are mute.

Thank god.

How am I being overly biased? Look at the numbers. They don't lie. Delusional might be a bit strong, how about silly? Maybe blind? Anyways, How are the comparisons mute? Do you want a mute comparison? Here goes: UND beat UNI, UNI beat SDSU, NDSU beat SDSU. Therefore UND beats NDSU. Now there is a mute comparison. That's sarcasm if you missed it. Don't snap on me.

Like I said, it was just one of those years where potentially great teams on their schedule had rather mediocre, if not poor years. Are you honestly going to try and tell me that those teams had good/great years? Anyways.....If NDSU played the same teams next year, it could be completely different. In fact, it probably would. I can't imagine Georgia Southern being down for more than this year. Minnesota might get to 7 wins next year with a new coach. Cal-Poly, UC-Davis, and SDSU will always have very competitive teams IMO. But this year is just that, this year. Don't get so bent out of shape.

[NanoBison]

How am I being overly biased? Look at the numbers. They don't lie. Delusional might be a bit strong, how about silly? Maybe blind? Anyways, How are the comparisons mute? Do you want a mute comparison? Here goes: UND beat UNI, UNI beat SDSU, NDSU beat SDSU. Therefore UND beats NDSU. Now there is a mute comparison. That's sarcasm if you missed it. Don't snap on me.

Like I said, it was just one of those years where potentially great teams on their schedule had rather mediocre, if not poor years. Are you honestly going to try and tell me that those teams had good/great years? Anyways.....If NDSU played the same teams next year, it could be completely different. In fact, it probably would. I can't imagine Georgia Southern being down for more than this year. Minnesota might get to 7 wins next year with a new coach. Cal-Poly, UC-Davis, and SDSU will always have very competitive teams IMO. But this year is just that, this year. Don't get so bent out of shape.

Liar, I thought you said you were done.

[SiouxMD]

I truly wish that the Bison football team was playoff eligible for this season...it would have kept the Bison posters off our board for another week (or two).

GO SIOUX! BEAT UNO!

[Sioux27]

Students didn't move because UND didn't want them behind the Winona bench. They wanted to kiss up to the NCAA as much as possible and having the students behind the Winona bench ripping the team wasn't the best way to do that. At least that is what students in line were told by security and what Mike Schepp said. The students would've moved if they had been allowed to.

I was pretty sure that it is a NC$$ rule. This came up last year and I remember reading it somewhere that the NC$$ imposes some seating restrictions during the event.

[GeauxSioux]

You mean that same rating here, which shows us ranked #1 in DI-AA (we're the first one on the list)...

Can you please explain how it was NOT the most difficult schedule the school has ever played?

Then perhaps it would be wiser for your school to remain in the NCC and quit with this foolish move up to DI-AA?

I didn't think so...

That's a hell of an excuse to not go and support your team. Even when we played Concordia-St. Paul, we had many butts in the seats... including my own. Made it to every home game and even paid for tickets when I could have got in free. (Better seats...)

I think LeftyZL did a good job of explaining the SOS, but I wanted to throw in my two cents. Nano, if you go to the Massey website that you referenced click on the column for schedule you will see that NDSU had the 19th toughest schedule in Division I-AA, with an overall SOS at 137. The Sicatoka was correct in his assessment that even though NDSU, SDSU and UNC have left the NCC, UND had nearly as tough SOS at 148. In fact, if you look through the SOS, you will see NCC teams at 139, 144, 146, 148, 149 and 155. NDSU has had tougher schedules than this year. I didn't see where either The Sicatoka or LeftyZL were trying to diminish NDSU's performance. It was strictly talk about the schedule strength.

[Eskimos]

I was pretty sure that it is a NC$$ rule. This came up last year and I remember reading it somewhere that the NC$$ imposes some seating restrictions during the event.

They do have that rule, but once Winona returns their unpurchased seats, anyone can buy tickets in that area, including students if they wanted to.

What I find ridiculous is Alerus Center security has allowed visiting fans to go and sit in the general admission student section in the past. Two years ago, about 20 fans did this from a visiting team and it just about caused a riot in the stands and the security ended up kicking out a bunch of UND students.

If they want to apply this policy of not allowing the students to move once the game has started and nobody is showing up in those sections, than the policy has to be applied across the board.

[BigGame]

I think LeftyZL did a good job of explaining the SOS, but I wanted to throw in my two cents. Nano, if you go to the Massey website that you referenced click on the column for schedule you will see that NDSU had the 19th toughest schedule in Division I-AA, with an overall SOS at 137. The Sicatoka was correct in his assessment that even though NDSU, SDSU and UNC have left the NCC, UND had nearly as tough SOS at 148. In fact, if you look through the SOS, you will see NCC teams at 139, 144, 146, 148, 149 and 155. NDSU has had tougher schedules than this year. I didn't see where either The Sicatoka or LeftyZL were trying to diminish NDSU's performance. It was strictly talk about the schedule strength.

The Bison schedule was likely there toughest ever, and it is certainly a lot tougher then UND's. UND had a tough D2 schedule, but massy ratings are a joke and aren't really a proper indication. Cal-Poly, UC-Davis, Ball State, the Goofers among others would have all pretty much walked UND schedule this season with the exception of playing UNI. Comparing schedule strength from D2 to 1aa is pretty foolish unless you are comparing to the non-scholarship 1aa schools.

Example, USD is a very good D2 team that got beat badly by Central Arkansas in there first year of transitioning to 1aa (someone on D2.com told me they are already using the full number of scholarships). Cal-Davis a 5-5 team went in and spanked Central Arkansas later that season and I believe SDSU did as well.

The overall level of play is slightly higher at 1aa compared to the elite D2 football teams, and it's a lot higher when compared to most D2 teams.

People might say that Chadron beat Montana State and they aren't even a fully funded D2 school. Anything can happen in a game and if the teams played now MSU would put a hurt of Chadron (they hit the 1 in 10 shot they had to win the game). The reasons they won the game is because MSU was still celebrating the big win over Colorado, MSU took them lightly as a lower level D2 school, obviously Chadron played very well and MSU didn't. These types of games happen all the time, usually UND lets a doormat team hang with them and occasionaly beat them at least once a year.

[Woden]

I was reading through this thread and had to post on this comment. I almost feel sorry for you up there but then I remember all the past and that goes away. But this comment is just way to out there not to point out the obvious. You can't draw flies for a playoff game (using that term playoff losely here) and you have someone posting your ultimate goal is to go IA with a 30,000 seat outdoor facitlity? That's hilarious and ridiculous at the same time. One of your own points out what many in Fargo have said for years and now you come down on him. If this was someone from Fargo that said this you'd be all over that tenfold. Your other comment about leading, Please lets not go there, you are following and you know it. I will give credit to some who at least see things clearly (walrus) but woden you need to lay off the bottle when your at the computer posting this stuff.

Why do you waste your time on a lowly DII board again? Never can figure you guys out. Talk about how you don't need UND yet you come back here time after time. You are definitely not the only one concerned with how many fans showed up for the playoff game. But with everything going on and everyone knowing it would be a blowout, as well as having to pay for tickets this time, no one really wanted to come. But on second thought, what is NDSU's average attendance for playoff games at the Fargodome? That would be a good way to make a comparison. That would be apples to apples. Let me know how many show up for playoff games in the Fargodome. If you average more, I'll concede the victory to you. I don't really have the time to go searching, so if you could come up with that answer I'd be grateful.

Also, what was NDSU's attendance the last few years of DII? I definitely remember there being about 6,000 fans at a home game in 2002. UND is starting to see a lot of that slippage as well as no one wants to see SE MN State Technical College for the Mentally Challenged come to town year after year. Whether the competition is increasingly greater or only marginally (totally different argument), NDSU's schedule is much more interesting for a casual fan than is UND's. The diehards will always be there, the goal is to draw Joe Schmo in from a couple of hours away to the game. NDSU's games this year did a better job of doing that than did UND's, I will not argue that.

As far as leading the way is concerned, I never said that we are not following NDSU to DIAA. I will also concede that point. My point about leading the way was aimed at UND being a leader in the GF's community by bringing in a new era. Make this a town where young people will come, and eventually hopefully stay as the University pushes GF to a higher level. The problem is, you as a poster have very little originality when it comes to arguing against Sioux fans. You basically have the three NDSU responses down, which are-

1. The Sioux are following the Bison (which to an extent I agree with, so let's get over it)

2. The Sioux would get crushed if they played the world's most difficult schedule like the Bison do (see CSP for proof)

3. Any little quip you can come up with that in no way responds to the actual points made.

So, instead of arguing intelligently, you say one or all of these statements, thinking that you have won. The problem is, you make yourself look like an idiot. I've said in before and I'll say it again, both NDSU and UND have plans in the works for their own on-campus stadiums that would seat somewhere in the 30,000 people area. They both have set IA as their ultimate goal within the next 15 years. You can choose to believe me or not, I'm really not concerned with your opinion of me.

Also, please respond to dlsiouxfans statements on the budget. You were the one wondering where UND would get money since it was in a BUDGET DEFECIT (not debt). Now that they came out in the black and NDSU had to scramble to get even, what are your thoughts? You kind of quieted down on that whole issue, huh?

[The Sicatoka]

The Bison schedule was likely there toughest ever, and it is certainly a lot tougher then UND's.

We all have opinions on schedules and who would have done what with someone else's schedule.

I went to a source that has no dog in this fight (to try to take my opinion out of it):

Massey Ratings, Strength of Schedule.

NDSU 138

UND 149

If you want to talk Massey Ratings, here are the first five non-DI-As listed:

NDSU

Montana

UMass

North Dakota <-- #1 in DII, ahead of all but 3 of DI-AA

Youngstown St.

[The Sicatoka]

Example, USD is a very good D2 team that got beat badly by Central Arkansas in there first year of transitioning to 1aa (someone on D2.com told me they are already using the full number of scholarships). Cal-Davis a 5-5 team went in and spanked Central Arkansas later that season and I believe SDSU did as well.

And South Dakota State lost to a DIII and ended up second in the Great West. Whups.

[Bison Dan]

We all have opinions on schedules and who would have done what with someone else's schedule.

I went to a source that has no dog in this fight (to try to take my opinion out of it):

Massey Ratings, Strength of Schedule.

NDSU 138

UND 149

If you want to talk Massey Ratings, here are the first five non-DI-As listed:

NDSU

Montana

UMass

North Dakota <-- #1 in DII, ahead of all but 3 of DI-AA

Youngstown St.

Comparing strength of schedule between divisions is foolish.

[bincitysioux]

Comparing strength of schedule between divisions is foolish.

I'll bet you wouldn't think it was so foolish if NDSU was at 100 and UND were at 300. Then it would be gospel.

[BigGame]

And South Dakota State lost to a DIII and ended up second in the Great West. Whups.

Correct, but teams have bad days, especially early in the season. If they played again this week, what do you think would happen?