Sioux-Bison in 2008?

[LeftyZL]

This won't be just great for football, but bball as well.

And when NDSU gets a hockey team, it will be great for that too.

Serious Question Here MplsBison...What's your(MplsBison) timeline for NDSU having a hockey team? How long til they are competitive? How long til UND and NDSU play a meaningful(non-exhibition) game? What conference will they be in? Again, all serious questions.

[Blackheart]

Serious Question Here MplsBison...What's your(MplsBison) timeline for NDSU having a hockey team? How long til they are competitive? How long til UND and NDSU play a meaningful(non-exhibition) game? What conference will they be in? Again, all serious questions.

Sorry dude, Landcows don't skate...

[SiouxMeNow]

Which side am I supposed to be on? Your side appears to embrace an irrational hatred of NDSU. Is that correct or am I just imagining it?

Lets just be clear here...I AM THE GUY WITH THE IRRATIONAL HATRED OF NDSU!! Anyone else is a SiouxMeNow-wannabe!*

PCM is as true GREEN and WHITE as you can get...he just has that whole "sudo"-journalist "objective" thing going on Get off his back!

*and I have T-shirts available at SIOUXMENOW.COM (made you look!)

[Shawn-O]

Now hold on there... you, along with a lot of other Sioux fans (not including myself), display an irrational hatred of the Gophers hockey program consistently. What makes it okay to hate Gophers hockey but not okay to hate Bison football? I sense a double standard. Obviously you like the Sioux, but I'm beginning to get the feeling you're a closet Bison fan on the side. Not that there's anything wrong with that, I like Gophers hockey when they're playing anybody besides UND. If you don't have a soft spot for NDS-who, I have no idea what your motivation would be in defending them. Any Sioux football fan who doesn't share my "irrational" hatred for the Bison must not have been following the rivalry between 1981 and 1992.

Not that anyone's asking, but count me in the camp that wishes zero success for either program.

[WYOBISONMAN]

NDSU will play UND when, and only when, they count as a DI-AA opponent. Given that NDSU has to battle for an at large bid to the playoffs (when eligible in 2008), I suspect the strength of schedule will be a very important determinant. I am quite sure that NDSU will never play a D2 UND. There would be no up side to such a game.

[SiouxMD]

NDSU will play UND when, and only when, they count as a DI-AA opponent. Given that NDSU has to battle for an at large bid to the playoffs (when eligible in 2008), I suspect the strength of schedule will be a very important determinant. I am quite sure that NDSU will never play a D2 UND. There would be no up side to such a game.

Upside? Regardless of UND's divisional status what is the "upside" of a Bison loss?

[UND92,96]

NDSU will play UND when, and only when, they count as a DI-AA opponent. Given that NDSU has to battle for an at large bid to the playoffs (when eligible in 2008), I suspect the strength of schedule will be a very important determinant. I am quite sure that NDSU will never play a D2 UND. There would be no up side to such a game.

Again, I ask, isn't it LIKELY that UND and NDSU will play in 2008 due to the fact that both will LIKELY be in the Great West? If the Great West wants to survive and eventually become an autobid conference, it needs more members, doesn't it?

[siouxforeverbaby]

NDSU will play UND when, and only when, they count as a DI-AA opponent. Given that NDSU has to battle for an at large bid to the playoffs (when eligible in 2008), I suspect the strength of schedule will be a very important determinant. I am quite sure that NDSU will never play a D2 UND. There would be no up side to such a game.

Dude, the reason they are putting 2008 out there as a year to renew the rivilary is because technically UND will be D-1 at that point. Our exploratory year is 2007-2008. So UND will be D-1 when they play, just not playoff eligible.

[Air Force One]

Who's watching the Bison/Northeastern game tonight at 6:00?

[TinyTimmay]

I'll be there.

[PCM]

Now hold on there... you, along with a lot of other Sioux fans (not including myself), display an irrational hatred of the Gophers hockey program consistently. What makes it okay to hate Gophers hockey but not okay to hate Bison football? I sense a double standard.

I sense that your'e assuming way too much. I don't hate Gopher hockey any more than I hate NDSU athletics. There are a few pro sports franchises that I despise. I can count them on one hand and have fingers left over. There are some amateur athletic organizations that I tend to dislike more than others.

That's not to say that I'm above taking jabs at Gopher fans or Bison fans when I think they've posted something here that I consider ridiculous or untrue. But do I irrationally hate either school? Not even close. I reverve my hatred for those who truly deserve it, such as people who think flying planes loaded with innocent people into office buildings loaded with innocent people is a good idea.

Obviously you like the Sioux, but I'm beginning to get the feeling you're a closet Bison fan on the side.

Wrong again. Strike two.

If you don't have a soft spot for NDS-who, I have no idea what your motivation would be in defending them.

I wasn't defending NDSU. I merely pointed out that the pot called the kettle black.

[NDSU grad]

OK, after perusing the NCAA manual (who knows, the one online is probably outdated anyway) I think I am like 5% positive UND will be counted as a DII opponent in 2008, regardless of how many I-AA opponents they schedule. After looking back at NDSU's 2004 schedule, we played 6 DI opponents and were still counted as DII opponent and were part of the DII record book. So, based on this, I don't think UND will be invited to the Great West until 2009, and if I were Gene Taylor I would not schedule the Sioux until that same year. If the Bison don't have any DII's on the schedule, I might consider scheduling the Sioux in 2008 depending on what the rest of the schedule looke like.

I have reached this conclusion by looking at section 20.9.8.2.1.1

EDIT: The section is on page 366 of the manual.

[MplsBison]

Again, I ask, isn't it LIKELY that UND and NDSU will play in 2008 due to the fact that both will LIKELY be in the Great West? If the Great West wants to survive and eventually become an autobid conference, it needs more members, doesn't it?

Yes, it needs more members if they ever want an autobid.

However, I think the 08 date is independant of that.

[Smoggy]

Funny that Bison fans blamed us for the rivalry ending because we wouldn't schedule them due to it hurting our playoff chances and now it's perfectly OK for them to do the same.

[Hammersmith]

OK, after perusing the NCAA manual (who knows, the one online is probably outdated anyway) I think I am like 5% positive UND will be counted as a DII opponent in 2008, regardless of how many I-AA opponents they schedule. After looking back at NDSU's 2004 schedule, we played 6 DI opponents and were still counted as DII opponent and were part of the DII record book. So, based on this, I don't think UND will be invited to the Great West until 2009, and if I were Gene Taylor I would not schedule the Sioux until that same year. If the Bison don't have any DII's on the schedule, I might consider scheduling the Sioux in 2008 depending on what the rest of the schedule looke like.

I have reached this conclusion by looking at section 20.9.8.2.1.1

EDIT: The section is on page 366 of the manual.

You're referring to the phrase "the year the reclassifying institution must comply with Division I

scheduling requirements", right? (emphasis mine)

That part has confused me and I thought it meant that UND couldn't count as DI until 2009 until NJIT came to Fargo for WBB. They counted as a DI for us even though they're a year behind us in reclassification. The reason given was that they had a full DI schedule a year early. The FB and BB rules are the same, so that should mean that UND has the option to ba a DI counter in 2008. Also, Hallstrom's report on WDAY said that Talyor would consider adding UND to the schedule only if they secured 6 other DI games.

To the posters commenting on GWFC adding UND as soon as possible: Other than making scheduling easier, UND does absolutely nothing for GWFC until 2012. Whether you're added in 08, 09, 10, 11 or 12 doesn't matter except for the scheduling. I'm betting 60% in 09 and 40% in 08.

To Smoggy: I find it hilarious that we're using the same excuse because we're not the ones who used it first. UND lost the moral high ground on this point. Beyond that, UND's rationale for that point, changed the following year when the rules were altered, yet no attempt was made by UND to renew the rivalry for several years. NDSU is just saying that 2008 is a bad year for us. 2009 on the other hand...

[bincitysioux]

This little anecdote kind of fits in this thread........

Regarding those fans from both schools who say that we would all be better off if UND and NDSU never did renew the rivalry, I just thought I'd share something I thought was interesting from a conversation I had today. There were two guys sitting next to me at the UND-Winona game. One of them asked me the quickest way to get out of GF after the game. He said they were heading to Fargo immediately after the Sioux game to watch NDSU. Like a smartass, I said well what the hell would you want to waste your money on something like that for? He said they had drove to GF from Dickinson this morning for the UND game, then heading to Fargo for the NDSU game, then heading back for Dickinson. I asked if either of them had any ties to either university or to this area, and they said no, they were just huge football fans and wanted to make a day of it when they were both playing home games. They said they were excited that UND is going DI so that the Sioux-Bison games can start back up again as they always looked forward to making the trip for that game. These guys were great fans, hooting and hollering along with me every time the Sioux had a score, big play, big hit or whatever. And I assume they were cheering for NDSU at the game tonight as well. I think it is a great example of residents of North Dakota feeling pride and a perhaps a sense of ownership in both of their state's largest public universities. The rivalry was and will be good for North Dakota and North Dakotans in general and they deserve it. It is for everybody, not just fans or graduates of UND or NDSU.

[GoBison127]

As much as I would be amused by seeing that classless program defeated by the Sioux... again for the 11th time in 14 meetings, the fact of the matter is that the Sioux have much bigger fish to fry than NDS-who. We have the Nickel and they were the ones who made the first move to end the rivalry, so therefore I think it would be in our best interest to leave them in the past where they belong. If they play, so be it. I'm not going to lose any sleep over it one way or the other.

Leave them in the past where they belong? Who is the program choking on the trail-dust right now? Damn it feels good to be in a conference!

[SiouxMeNow]

Leave them in the past where they belong? Who is the program choking on the trail-dust right now? Damn it feels good to be in a conference!

a conference that lost their ONLY recognizable member (Valpo) - Great! That allowed you the crack in the door to get in...CONGRATS I find in VERY INTERESTING you'd drop your pants (ie membership in the MidCon) to get into the Gateway. There are threads talking about that exact scenario on "another board"

NO ONE is choking on your "trail-dust" right now...if anything...I'd say UND is right on the same track as another school who left DII several years ago...THE DIFFERENCE? We'll go out, ON TOP, hopefully challenging for another National Championship!! If only you guys could have gone out on top

[bincitysioux]

We'll go out, ON TOP, hopefully challenging for another National Championship!!

Whaddaya mean................"challenging"?

[UND92,96]

OK, after perusing the NCAA manual (who knows, the one online is probably outdated anyway) I think I am like 5% positive UND will be counted as a DII opponent in 2008, regardless of how many I-AA opponents they schedule. After looking back at NDSU's 2004 schedule, we played 6 DI opponents and were still counted as DII opponent and were part of the DII record book. So, based on this, I don't think UND will be invited to the Great West until 2009, and if I were Gene Taylor I would not schedule the Sioux until that same year. If the Bison don't have any DII's on the schedule, I might consider scheduling the Sioux in 2008 depending on what the rest of the schedule looke like.

I have reached this conclusion by looking at section 20.9.8.2.1.1

EDIT: The section is on page 366 of the manual.

I guess what I'm having some trouble understanding is, if the fact that UND wouldn't be a dI counter in 2008 is such a big deal, does that mean that Cal-Poly and Southern Utah were just that desperate for games in 2004 that they agreed to form a conference with two schools who were in the exact same situation that year as UND will be in 2008? Why didn't they request that the formation of the conference be delayed until 2005 so that NDSU and SDSU would be dI counters?

[Hammersmith]

I guess what I'm having some trouble understanding is, if the fact that UND wouldn't be a dI counter in 2008 is such a big deal, does that mean that Cal-Poly and Southern Utah were just that desperate for games in 2004 that they agreed to form a conference with two schools who were in the exact same situation that year as UND will be in 2008? Why didn't they request that the formation of the conference be delayed until 2005 so that NDSU and SDSU would be dI counters?

If the rules were the same back in 2004 as they are now(I think they are, but I'm not sure), then both NDSU and SDSU should have been counters in 2004. Counting UC Davis and Northern Colorado, NDSU had 8 DI games and SDSU had 7. Besides, in the case of SUU, they had no chance of a playoff spot. Cal Poly was a different situation and it's possible that having the SU's on their schedule might have kept them out of the playoffs. They had a 9-2 record and still didn't make it in. It's possible that all the Great West schools learned from that, and that is one of the reasons NDSU is wary of having a DII on the 2008 schedule.

Really, it seems like everything is in Buning's and Lennon's hands at this point. If they choose to pursue an accelerated transition, then they will have to decide between having most of the home games be patsies, having fewer home games, or paying significant amounts of money to bring I-AA teams to GF. Home and homes are the way to go, but it's difficult to get established I-AA teams to come to a reclassifing school first. Still, it's obviously doable and if Buning wants a Bison/Sioux game in 2008, it's within his power.

[Shawn-O]

So it seems to me that a Great West bid would secure five DI games in 2008. UND would need to cobble together one more DI game to be a counter. Two would probably be better, in case someone flakes out at the last minute for a IA guarantee game. But the way I read the NCAA manual, UND couldn't be a counter until 2009, year two of the reclassification. Where does the notion come in that you can be a counter in year one? I hope that's right, but that's not the way I read it.

[MplsBison]

This is the way I know it to be (tell me where I'm wrong):

2006: UND is DII, they can go to the DII playoffs

2007: experimental year, UND is DII, they can go to the DII playoffs (analogous to NDSU in 2003)

2008: year 1 of transition, UND is a DI counter if they schedule a certain number of DI games (NDSU in 2004)

2009: year 2 of transition (NDSU in 2005)

2010: year 3 of transition (NDSU in 2006)

2011: year 4 of transition (NDSU in 2007)

2012: DI non core member (NDSU in 2008)

2020: DI core member (NDSU in 2016)

[MplsBison]

I guess what I'm having some trouble understanding is, if the fact that UND wouldn't be a dI counter in 2008 is such a big deal, does that mean that Cal-Poly and Southern Utah were just that desperate for games in 2004 that they agreed to form a conference with two schools who were in the exact same situation that year as UND will be in 2008? Why didn't they request that the formation of the conference be delayed until 2005 so that NDSU and SDSU would be dI counters?

I do believe NDSU and SDSU were DI counters in 2004 because they both had a certain percentage of their scheduled games against other DI teams.

I think Cal Poly got hurt because 4 of their wins were against transitional teams (Davis, NDSU, SDSU, UNC).

But look at Poly's home schedule this year. 2 of their home games are against Fort Lewis and Savannah State. The other 3 are conference games (not sure how they get 3 GWFC home games this season). So yeah, it's a pretty big deal to be in the GWFC for them.

[Shawn-O]

2008: year 1 of transition, UND is a DI counter if they schedule a certain number of DI games (NDSU in 2004)

The NCAA manual seems ambiguous on this, but you guys have been looking at this longer than me. If you say NDSU was a DI counter, than I buy it (I hope this is the case). That would lock up the GW for '08. Look forward to getting the rivalry cranked up again!