United Basketball Conference

[aff]

We all agree that the BSC is a tough "read" as to what their goals are.

Now, let me ask a simple question: What are their goals?

If it was to spread into the Dakotas, yes, the SU "2-for-1" would be perfectly logical. Apparently, based on actions (or is it inactions?) that's not the goal.

If it was to add large metro TV markets there are other solutions.

If it was to expand their audience (and credibility, and recruiting base) to the north, meaning Canada, there are solutions for that.

Like PCM posted in another thread:

"Anybody can say anything.

Nobody knows everything."

What are the goals of the BSC?

"We shall see" is the safest statement.

I agree with almost all of that, but I find it pretty unlikely that a conference that has members in arizona and california would want to expand their audience into canda.

[star2city]

Any addition member added to the BSC will split the conference revenue up just the same as any other member.

SUU is in their footprint and gives them a 10th football member if that's what they're looking for.

Absolutely incorrect. If this was the case, the ACC would have added West Virginia, East Carolina, and Virginia Tech, when their original targets were Miami, Boston College, and Syracuse. Virginia Tech was added in spite of its smaller media market after political pressure was applied, not because their football team is excellent.

A school like UBC, with 4 million potential viewers, brings much more to the table to the conference than SUU could ever dream. For that matter, because UBC is a first-tier school in their region, UBC brings much more than PSU or Sac.

[star2city]

Thanks for the personalized message there starcity! I guess I deserve that for trying to look on the bright side of a possible conference affiliation for UND in that last post. Notice I said "Most likely", not going to happen. Either way, next time someone tells me I'm being a downer for UND, I'm going to point to that post as the reason why: Being optimistic gets you blasted.

Would hate to see your dark side. BTW, you never responded to the substance of what I posted - your lack of understanding of core membership issues.

Either way, I found your use of the "sniff test" pretty amusing. First, you take the second part of the sentence "want to expand with programs that make us better", that has to do with geography, and then throw it out because it doesn't fit your scenario. Than you act like that sniff test is gospel. So tell me again how Northern colorado helped the conference to become "better" again? What was it, two D-I basketball wins in the last three years? 3-8 in football? Yeah, fullerton seems real concerned with making the conference better, not geography at all. Because Northern Colorado over NDSU/SDSU speaks loads about what he thinks of competitiveness vs. geography.

Glad you found it amusing. The "sniff test" is always a money test. UNC helped the Big Sky get on the Altitude network. If the Big Sky had chosen NDSU/SDSU, the Denver-based Altitude network would have had practically no interest in the covering Big Sky athletics. Adding UNC meant more media exposure and $'s. Adding NDSU/SDSU would have meant less, so effectively by a number of measures (i.e. travel, media exposure, media contracts, and revenue/conference member), adding UNC was a winner, while adding NDSU/SDSU was a financial loser for the other schools.

The potential conference revenue that would be generated from the addition of DU/UND/UBC, after being dispersed among 12 schools rather than nine, and after additional expense (like travel to Grand Forks), would be greater than what the conference currently pays out. If the AD's of the Big Sky see more dollars coming back to their schools by expanding the conference --> they'll say yes. If the presidents see enhanced financials and enhance academics, they'll say yes.

The major issue with NDSU/SDSU's bid for the Big Sky was that NDSU/SDSU never gave a business case for how Sac. St., Portland St etc would financially benefit. Financially it was a win (NDSU/SDSU) - win (Montana/MSU) -lose (the rest) proposition. Any UND attempt to get in the Big Sky has to be a win-win-win-win situation and a DU/UND/UBC has the potential to provide that.

[dakotadan]

UND would obviously be a much better peer institution for the Sky than would SUU, but you will never solve the geography problem. It seems crazy, but that is Big Sky thinking.............

Didn't you hear? After DU and UBC demand that UND be added to the Big Sky, the conference is going to pay to load all of UND's sports facilities up on trailers and move them to Dickinson. Then every major airline will begin flights into Dickinson at the request of the Sky.

Geography problem solved.

[Shawn-O]

What is Montana and Montana State's long term commitment to the conference? If they get antsy for a move up (WAC?), the Sky becomes very unattractive, IMO.

[MplsBison]

FYI - The number of scholarships a school offers in a particular sport doesn't make them a good team. By your statement, since the UND women's hockey team is fielding nearly the maximum number of scholarships possible, they are a good team. That just doesn't fly.

I think it does show a commitment to the football team, though. They want to be competitive. They want to win.

[MplsBison]

Absolutely incorrect. If this was the case, the ACC would have added West Virginia, East Carolina, and Virginia Tech, when their original targets were Miami, Boston College, and Syracuse. Virginia Tech was added in spite of its smaller media market after political pressure was applied, not because their football team is excellent.

A school like UBC, with 4 million potential viewers, brings much more to the table to the conference than SUU could ever dream. For that matter, because UBC is a first-tier school in their region, UBC brings much more than PSU or Sac.

The BSC isn't going to add UND alone. I think you can at least agree to that much.

UBC is going DII to start out if they get into the NCAA. Denver isn't interested in the Big Sky.

I don't see many options for them now other than UVSC for a bball member or SUU for a fball/bball member. Or they don't expand and go through 2 more seasons of 9 member scheduling problems.

[FlApp]

I like the quote by fullerton saying that he wants to add programs that make the conference better....they recently added Northern Colorado....

[LeftyZL]

I think it does show a commitment to the football team, though. They want to be competitive. They want to win.

Random Question Here...How do you go about finding the number of scholarships a school offers in each particular sport?

[MplsBison]

I'm not sure if there is a singular resource for that.

I do know that there was a pre season article on SUU's athletic director and his 2 main goals are to get the football team to DI-A counter status (IE, averaging 57 scholarships over the last 2 seasons) and bringing back the volleyball program.

[The Sicatoka]

I agree with almost all of that, but I find it pretty unlikely that a conference that has members in arizona and california would want to expand their audience into canda.

I can't disagree with that; however, ...

What are the goals of Sac St and Northern Arizona, and I'll toss Portland State into the mix also?

If it's to expand their base in Canada there's a nice option for them.

If it's to move to a Pacific time zone or west coast only conference there are other options (which most likely don't align with the rest of the BSC).

What are their goals?

Again, "we shall see".

[CoteauRinkRat]

Did you know that just recently Grand Forks International Airport (GFK) received a grant to improve customer services and to lure in an airline with a western hub.

A most amazing coincidence I'd say.

I'll believe it when I see it, an airline with a western hub coming to Grand Forks that is.

[DUGrad]

Any idea when the NCAA will make their decision regarding UBC? Everyone keeps on talking about it but if it doesn't happen IMO UND has no chance.

[MplsBison]

Why would UBC getting into the BSC affect UND in any way?

[Riverman]

I agree with almost all of that, but I find it pretty unlikely that a conference that has members in arizona and california would want to expand their audience into canda.

aff,

Are you saying that teams from far western states do not like to expand east or expand period?

Yet, SDSU and NDSU are in a league that have two schools in California and everything is smiles and kittens???

East vs West

[DI IN FARGO]

aff,

Are you saying that teams from far western states do not like to expand east or expand period?

Yet, SDSU and NDSU are in a league that have two schools in California and everything is smiles and kittens???

East vs West

If you think because the Mid-Con having SUU means that all of the sudden the left coast schools in the BSC are all of a sudden going to think aww its ok lets have UND join your kidding yourself. If you referring to the GWFC those schools want competition. Sac State doesn't want competition. Oh and one last little detail, the GWFC teams only have to make one trip every other year in one sport (Football) unlike what your proposing which would mean multiple trips for each sport which aint gonna happen.

[aff]

aff,

Are you saying that teams from far western states do not like to expand east or expand period?

Yet, SDSU and NDSU are in a league that have two schools in California and everything is smiles and kittens???

East vs West

First, I never made a statement as general as "teams from far western states", I said that the big sky doesn't want to expand into the dakotas, which I think has been pretty obvious lately.

If you're talking about NDSU and SDSU being in a league as being the Great West, I guess I don't really view that as a league, since it is only 5 members strong, and doesn't have an autobid. Its a scheduling alliance, and is about as much a league as the United Basketball conference or whatever that scheduling alliance was. I don't think its fair to compare the big sky to the great west for expansion possibilities. Its apples to oranges.

[rabidrabbit]

aff,

Are you saying that teams from far western states do not like to expand east or expand period?

Yet, SDSU and NDSU are in a league that have two schools in California and everything is smiles and kittens???

East vs West

Riverman - VERY DIFFERENT ISSUES here. First, football and the Great West vs Big Sky.

The Big Sky is an established for years D-IAA conference with its roots in MT/ID/UT. It currently has 9 members.

The Great West was established by BIG WEST (non-football conference) schools and the transitioning NCC schools. The other alternative was to be INDEPENDENT (which Poly and SUU were in FOOTBALL). UC-Davis, because of their successes as D-II powerhouse was INVITED to move up to be a Big West member, and needed a place for football. For ONE OR TWO GAMES, EVERY OTHER YEAR, these teams, agreed to be a conference. BTW, the Cal. schools, and SUU are traveling substantially further for their OOC games than to the DAKOTAS because at 9 teams, the BSC teams now have only 3 OOC games each year, and they've got to get in a $$ game, a home game, leaving only 1 game (in the I-AA 11 game season) that can play vs their choice. Try getting a 1-2-1 home-home series with that constraint!

Therefore, there was really NO OPTION other than to create the GREAT WEST. What has turned out to be amazing is what an incredibly tough, competitive conference it has become. SDSU and SUU were, and continue this year to be the "lower competitive" teams in the conference. Yet, the Jacks and the T-bird's are playing 7 top 25, and 5 top 25 + 1 I-A schedules respectively. So if poor records, due to taking on the best that I-AA has to offer. Great West is only lacking due to few members, not because of the existing or past members. Get it to be an auto-bid conference, MEAC, Patriot, OVC could lose autobids BECAUSE OF PLAY-OFF SUCCESS by GWFC MEMBERS as invitees.

For the other sports, especially basketball (drives the rest of conferencing) proximity is much more of an issue. Therefore, UC-Davis, Poly are very happy with their BIG West affiliations, and PAC-10 for wrestling, gymnastics, water polo, and various minor sports. SUU either needs a Mid-Con partner in neighborhood, or to go to Big Sky, where they've been rejected numerous times. However, the reason for the BSC rejection has been SUU's not funding a competitive football, and academics. SUU is resolving that football schollies issue, which they need to be competitive in either the GWFC or Sky. The Mid-Con now has SDSU, NDSU, SUU, with Western IL being the "other football playing school" in the Mid-Con.

Bin has this pegged. About 2011, 2012, the Mid-Con will likely be interested in picking up another 1-3 schools, preferrably in the midwest. Get into the coordinated Mid-Con football conference (GREAT WEST), get into the Mid-Con as an ASSOCIATE member for Swimming & Diving. And the SIOUX will be the #1 pick up at that expansion. Sioux will suffer the transition independent status blues, like SDSU/NDSU have encountered, but you will survive. Likewise, I believe that SDSU/NDSU will be happy to play you on home/home arrangements when you count as a D-I event. Like Central Ark is going thru this year, and SDSU/NDSU did in '04, '08 for UND is going to be challenging.

Good luck for a competitive game at UNI tomorrow!

[GeauxSioux]

That's great news, although I'm not sure who they would/could get. I think Delta and United are out because they already in Fargo, and I think it would be difficult to generate the additional traffic to Salt Lake and Denver.

Other options

US Airways - Slight possibility for a direct flight to Phoenix, would be very popular in the winter. But neither US Air or American West have much history up here so would require a fair amount of promotion.

Frontier - Would be the only low-cost carrier operating in North Dakota, and would be another option for those travelling to Fargo to catch United to Denver. Don't know if they are expanding or would consider a market as small as Grand Forks.

Horizon/Alaska - Could offer a flight to Seattle. They are in many Western cities, but Grand Forks would be a long flight for them. Also a partner of Northwest, so that may discourage them doing it.

American - The only major airline not in North Dakota. Don't really have a Western hub, but could offer flights to St. Louis or Dallas.

What about this Airline.

[dmksioux]

What about this Airline.

Might get a little cramped for a football team

[Shawn-O]

What about this Airline.

Affectionately called "Big Scare" by the fine residents of Montana.

[Shawn-O]

Riverman - VERY DIFFERENT ISSUES here. First, football and the Great West vs Big Sky.

The Big Sky is an established for years D-IAA conference with its roots in MT/ID/UT. It currently has 9 members.

The Great West was established by BIG WEST (non-football conference) schools and the transitioning NCC schools. The other alternative was to be INDEPENDENT (which Poly and SUU were in FOOTBALL). UC-Davis, because of their successes as D-II powerhouse was INVITED to move up to be a Big West member, and needed a place for football. For ONE OR TWO GAMES, EVERY OTHER YEAR, these teams, agreed to be a conference. BTW, the Cal. schools, and SUU are traveling substantially further for their OOC games than to the DAKOTAS because at 9 teams, the BSC teams now have only 3 OOC games each year, and they've got to get in a $$ game, a home game, leaving only 1 game (in the I-AA 11 game season) that can play vs their choice. Try getting a 1-2-1 home-home series with that constraint!

Therefore, there was really NO OPTION other than to create the GREAT WEST. What has turned out to be amazing is what an incredibly tough, competitive conference it has become. SDSU and SUU were, and continue this year to be the "lower competitive" teams in the conference. Yet, the Jacks and the T-bird's are playing 7 top 25, and 5 top 25 + 1 I-A schedules respectively. So if poor records, due to taking on the best that I-AA has to offer. Great West is only lacking due to few members, not because of the existing or past members. Get it to be an auto-bid conference, MEAC, Patriot, OVC could lose autobids BECAUSE OF PLAY-OFF SUCCESS by GWFC MEMBERS as invitees.

For the other sports, especially basketball (drives the rest of conferencing) proximity is much more of an issue. Therefore, UC-Davis, Poly are very happy with their BIG West affiliations, and PAC-10 for wrestling, gymnastics, water polo, and various minor sports. SUU either needs a Mid-Con partner in neighborhood, or to go to Big Sky, where they've been rejected numerous times. However, the reason for the BSC rejection has been SUU's not funding a competitive football, and academics. SUU is resolving that football schollies issue, which they need to be competitive in either the GWFC or Sky. The Mid-Con now has SDSU, NDSU, SUU, with Western IL being the "other football playing school" in the Mid-Con.

Bin has this pegged. About 2011, 2012, the Mid-Con will likely be interested in picking up another 1-3 schools, preferrably in the midwest. Get into the coordinated Mid-Con football conference (GREAT WEST), get into the Mid-Con as an ASSOCIATE member for Swimming & Diving. And the SIOUX will be the #1 pick up at that expansion. Sioux will suffer the transition independent status blues, like SDSU/NDSU have encountered, but you will survive. Likewise, I believe that SDSU/NDSU will be happy to play you on home/home arrangements when you count as a D-I event. Like Central Ark is going thru this year, and SDSU/NDSU did in '04, '08 for UND is going to be challenging.

Good luck for a competitive game at UNI tomorrow!

This is about the most realistic take I've seen posted on this discussion in a long time. The implementation of allowing UBC into the NCAA is so riddled with logistics issues (by UBC's own admission), I can't see that happening for 5+ years. Will be interesting to see it play out.