thoughts on the Betty

[SiouxMD]

That's not the argument, though.

The point is that they called it a sellout with just over 3,000 as announced attendance, and there were PLENTY of open seats.

Question: Do season ticket holders have assigned seats or general admission? If they're assigned, then it's going to be hard for you to get me to believe that some people have season tickets in the top few rows of the arena, where there definitely were some open seats yesterday.

Fine...the BESC staff mismanaged their first sellout. They will do better at the second sellout.

Despite their failure...I disagree with comments like "We are not "lucky" to have this arena."

[BigGreyAnt41]

Fine...the BESC staff mismanaged their first sellout. They will do better at the second sellout.

Despite their failure...I disagree with comments like "We are not "lucky" to have this arena."

I agree with you on that. My big problem isn't that people are being turned away when they're calling it a sellout, because if there aren't any tickets, there aren't any tickets, but rather how many empty seats there still were.

I'm just going to believe it's the fact that it was a Thursday night with inclement weather.

[dakotadan]

I agree with you on that. My big problem isn't that people are being turned away when they're calling it a sellout, because if there aren't any tickets, there aren't any tickets, but rather how many empty seats there still were.

I'm just going to believe it's the fact that it was a Thursday night with inclement weather.

So when our athletic department needs money it makes sence to be turning ticket buyers away? We could be playing in either the Hyslop or the Ralph and have twice the attendance, i.e. twice the ticket income.

The fact that UND is playing in a basketball arena that is half the size of the one they were playing in 3 years ago makes no sence. Who ever hears of schools building smaller arenas?

[coachdags]

Half the Size..But Twice the Price..I'm Guessing We (UND Athletics) Pay a Pretty Price to Use Both REA and The Betty......

[UND92,96]

Since we now know that the Betty's capacity is only in the 3000 to 3300 range, that means we have the second-smallest basketball arena in the NCC:

USD (Dakotadome) 10,000 (approx.)

SCSU (Halenbeck) 6,400

MSU (Taylor) 4,800

Augie (Elmen) 4,000

UNO (Sapp) 3,500

UMD (Romano) 2,759

Building a 3000 seat basketball arena is stupid enough, but if UND and/or REA refuses to move conference games--at least the bigger games--to the Ralph next season, it's inexcusable.

[new2sioux2]

That's not the argument, though.

The point is that they called it a sellout with just over 3,000 as announced attendance, and there were PLENTY of open seats.

Question: Do season ticket holders have assigned seats or general admission? If they're assigned, then it's going to be hard for you to get me to believe that some people have season tickets in the top few rows of the arena, where there definitely were some open seats yesterday.

I know that some friends of ours applied for season tickets and some kind of VIP package (not sure if that just includes parking in a closer lot or what) but they waited forever to get them and when they finally arrived, they are in row R, that is pretty close to nosebleed, so I think there may be some assigned seats way up there. It is a shame to have to turn away paying customers who not only will spend money to get in the door, but will probably drop some $ once they are inside. Yes, it can increase the hoopla, but it can also lead people to think "why bother going...I won't get a ticket anyway." Something should be done...if it involves playing in the Ralph, I hope the teams get to practice there too, otherwise it's not really home court to them either. Fortunatley, I think this is going to be an ongoing problem...at least for the women, because the future looks very bight for them!

[The Sicatoka]

... if UND and/or REA refuses to move conference games--at least the bigger games--to the Ralph next season, it's inexcusable.

I'm tellin' ya, they'd rather play them in The Ralph (think: Club Rooms and suites).

Then again, if someone ponied up the bling I still think moving the remaining sports out of Hyslop to The Betty and renovating old REA for BB/VB only wouldn't be a bad solution either.

Getting Athletics completely out of Hyslop would open that space up for academic buidings down the road which wouldn't be a bad thing.

The only "catch" in this notion is "Hyslop pool". Then again, I thought I read a musing by someone in student government about adding an aquatic center to the new Wellness Center.

[UND92,96]

I'm tellin' ya, they'd rather play them in The Ralph (think: Club Rooms and suites).

Let's just hope Wayne Nelson is incorrect in his belief that conference games will not be moved to the Ralph next year. There's a lot of money to be lost playing those games in the Betty.

[siouxfan499]

I find this whole thread funny. Last year during the conference season everyone was complaining about how the Ralph was too cavernous and that there was no atmosphere at the games. Sure, the Betty could have been built better with more seating, but that's the way it goes. Most likely the seats that were empty at the game had already been sold and there is nothing that can be done. Blame it on the weather, blame it on a Thursday night, whatever. The players and coaching staffs like playing in the Betty, it's a true homecourt advantage for them........to give up on the Betty now is a bit premature.

[Cratter]

I find this whole thread funny. Last year during the conference season everyone was complaining about how the Ralph was too cavernous and that there was no atmosphere at the games. Sure, the Betty could have been built better with more seating, but that's the way it goes. Most likely the seats that were empty at the game had already been sold and there is nothing that can be done. Blame it on the weather, blame it on a Thursday night, whatever. The players and coaching staffs like playing in the Betty, it's a true homecourt advantage for them........to give up on the Betty now is a bit premature.

The UND administration has proved on more than one occasion that they care more about money than atmosphere.

[supersioux]

Honestly, I don't think that there is near the problem everyone is saying that there is. People were turned away after the first sell out. It was a game between the #2 team and #4 team in the country, it should be a sell out and people shoudn't expect to be able to walk up and get tickets. It's like claiming that we a bigger football game after a sellout against the Bison.

The atmosphere is so much better than in the Ralph for BB. Then demand isn't there, it may be at some time. But that time is when the place sells out consistantly.

Get your tickets early if your worried, or better yet buy season tickets.

[UND92,96]

Honestly, I don't think that there is near the problem everyone is saying that there is. People were turned away after the first sell out. It was a game between the #2 team and #4 team in the country, it should be a sell out and people shoudn't expect to be able to walk up and get tickets. It's like claiming that we a bigger football game after a sellout against the Bison.

The atmosphere is so much better than in the Ralph for BB. Then demand isn't there, it may be at some time. But that time is when the place sells out consistantly.

Get your tickets early if your worried, or better yet buy season tickets.

I'm afraid you're missing a big point here. Building the Betty with roughly one-half of the capacity Hyslop had was stupid, plain and simple. Anybody who has been going to UND basketball games over the past 10-20 years can attest that there have been many, many games with well in excess of 3000 people. It's not an isolated occurrence. During the 1990-91 season, the men averaged 4432 per game. It would have been akin to moving UND football into the Alerus with a capacity of 6000 or 7000. You wouldn't do it. Yes, the atmosphere in the Ralph isn't very good for basketball. But given a choice between too big and too small, it's not a difficult decision from a bottom-line standpoint.

[UND92,96]

I find this whole thread funny. Last year during the conference season everyone was complaining about how the Ralph was too cavernous and that there was no atmosphere at the games. Sure, the Betty could have been built better with more seating, but that's the way it goes. Most likely the seats that were empty at the game had already been sold and there is nothing that can be done. Blame it on the weather, blame it on a Thursday night, whatever. The players and coaching staffs like playing in the Betty, it's a true homecourt advantage for them........to give up on the Betty now is a bit premature.

Yes, everybody was complaining about the Ralph's atmosphere for basketball, but had we known that the Betty could only hold 3000 people, I highly doubt any long-time UND basketball fan would have been in favor of moving into such a small facility. A lot of people had doubts when we thought it would hold 4000. All you need to do is look at the highwater mark for average attendance, and make sure it's built AT LEAST that big! If you don't have the money to do it right, don't build it until you do!

[Cratter]

I"m still under the impression that the Engelstad family paid for the Betty.

http://www.UND.edu/stratplan2/tables.html (funding source of "private")

Just like the Ralph.

[coachdags]

I"m still under the impression that the Engelstad family paid for the Betty.

http://www.UND.edu/stratplan2/tables.html (funding source of "private")

Just like the Ralph.

I Agree.....But the Two Issues here are not only undersized, But overpriced....We now Rent Space to Play All Our Major Sports...Football,Basketball, Hockey....And I Believe the Rent is Very Overpriced for a Donated Facility.....Were Still Losing Money...? was not the Ralph suppose to help generate extra Revenue for All Sports, I beleive that was Ralph's Dream....?

[Cratter]

I Agree.....But the Two Issues here are not only undersized, But overpriced....We now Rent Space to Play All Our Major Sports...Football,Basketball, Hockey....And I Believe the Rent is Very Overpriced for a Donated Facility.....Were Still Losing Money...? was not the Ralph suppose to help generate extra Revenue for All Sports, I beleive that was Ralph's Dream....?

I think we are all on that page. What is happening? Why is UND paying money to use facilities that was donated to them?

[southpaw]

i breezed through the posts above this, so i'm sorry if i'm repeating someone.

i'm not sure where to start because there are 3-4 different issues going on with the betty. i think the decision to hold the game in the betty was a bad one, but i also can see where the admin was coming from.

from what i understand, and up until this year, this was the case:

the betty was built as a volleyball arena and a basketball practice facility. if you look back to last year, the non-conference games were held in the betty and the conference games were in the ralph. i believe that was always the intention when the betty was built. during big games (like thursday was), the ralph would be rockin, and the atmosphere would be amazing. last year attendance wasn't as good as it is this year and so the ralph seemed dead. way too much space with way too little fans. a lot of complaining by fans and coaches got all games moved to the betty for this year. i think that was the best thing that could have happened.

the games are way more exciting in the betty because you're so close and it's a small-town atmosphere with big-city amenities. up until thursday, the betty had never had a sellout. sure you can say it's a huge game and there is a chance it will sellout, but at the same time, it could be a horrible turnout for some odd reason (the weather). it would have made sense to have this game in the ralph, but i can see why they didn't. i'd imagine in the future, they will be better prepared.

the betty was never intended to be the new hyslop. it was for non-conference basketball and volleyball. only after complaining last year did the betty turn into the full-time basketball arena.

[bincitysioux]

during big games (like thursday was), the ralph would be rockin, and the atmosphere would be amazing. last year attendance wasn't as good as it is this year and so the ralph seemed dead.

Actually, attendance is about the same this year for the women as last year, even a little less, and the men's attendance was much higher last year. There were 4400 for SCSU last year in the Ralph. So if UND turned away 1400 people, they missed out on about $17,000.

[huskies679]

I Agree.....But the Two Issues here are not only undersized, But overpriced....We now Rent Space to Play All Our Major Sports...Football,Basketball, Hockey....And I Believe the Rent is Very Overpriced for a Donated Facility.....Were Still Losing Money...? was not the Ralph suppose to help generate extra Revenue for All Sports, I beleive that was Ralph's Dream....?

Wait a minute...you mean to tell me that the REA and the Betty were "donated" to the university and now you have to pay rent. (to who?) With the very little I know about the situation, it sounds more like somebody put up an investment property rather than a donated property. It is like putting up a mini-mall with guaranteed tenants for life...if it were only that easy.

Are the rent checks going to a corporation that is affiliated with the Engelstad family? Does the REA make money? If so, does UND get a piece of it? Thanks!

If I am way off base...let me know.

[teamsioux]

I'm afraid you're missing a big point here. Building the Betty with roughly one-half of the capacity Hyslop had was stupid, plain and simple. Anybody who has been going to UND basketball games over the past 10-20 years can attest that there have been many, many games with well in excess of 3000 people. It's not an isolated occurrence. During the 1990-91 season, the men averaged 4432 per game. It would have been akin to moving UND football into the Alerus with a capacity of 6000 or 7000. You wouldn't do it. Yes, the atmosphere in the Ralph isn't very good for basketball. But given a choice between too big and too small, it's not a difficult decision from a bottom-line standpoint.

[Irish]

Count me as one who didn't get to the St. Cloud game - I had a late start because of work and then heard it was sold out. This is crazy. I beleive many fans were turned away or discouraged from trying to go. What a pathetic way to build team support. Does anyone from the athletic dept. or the Englestead even care. On the other hand, playing in the big Ralph isn't the final solution either. We lose a considerable home court advantage in there because of the empty space. The poor planning that went into the Betty seems to have put us in a corner. When I heard the capacity during the construction phase, I couldn't believe it. Everyone I talked to felt that it was too small. I believe that it was rushed without much planning for the world jrs.

Speaking of the World Juniors - has any of the supposed benefits materialized. The Ralph seemed to get a monopoly on the food and drink sales for the tournament, shutting out local businesses. What hapened to the profits? Now, a year later, have we seen the massive business boost we were promised - has it "showcased" Grand Forks in such a way that many new recruits are comming here just because of the exposure? I think we were sold a bill of goods on that one. It was a nice tournament, but not worth the fallout - especially now that we are stuck with the Betty.

Another issue that has been mentioned on this topic is the effect of the Ralph on the Athletic Dept. budget - If this is topic for a new thread I apologise - but i would love to hear an explaination from someone who knows the facts (which I don't) as to how we could be broke. The football attendance since the move to the Alarus is about double - plus playoff games - Hockey capacity is about double also. Add to that increased ticket prices and the push to force people into the Fighting Sioux club in order to get tickets. Then add the increase in consessions - How can we be broke? Is women's hockey that expensive - Things just don't add up in my head - can anyone explain it to me? Is the Ralph not the great deal we thought? What is the relationship between the Ralph and the Athletic Dept. financially - who gets what revinue? Where did the money to build the Betty come from? who controls the profits - I would really like to hear from someone who knows.

[star2city]

the betty was built as a volleyball arena and a basketball practice facility. if you look back to last year, the non-conference games were held in the betty and the conference games were in the ralph. i believe that was always the intention when the betty was built.

That is exactly correct.

a lot of complaining by fans and coaches got all games moved to the betty for this year. i think that was the best thing that could have happened.

Gene Roebuck was one of the prime advocates of a move to the Betty, so much of the complaints on this board ought to be directed to him as anyone else.

the betty was never intended to be the new hyslop. it was for non-conference basketball and volleyball. only after complaining last year did the betty turn into the full-time basketball arena.

It needs to be understood that the Betty was always intended as a PRACTICE facility and secondarily to entice recruits to come to UND. The Betty is a practice facility that has seating capacity. Does any current player prefer Hyslop to the Betty? If/when UND gets an indoor football/track training facility, people will be compaining here about the lack of seating capacity in it.

A decent 5000-6000 seat arena that could serve dual purposes as a multiple-court practice facility would have cost in the neighboorhood of $30 million (compared to ~$8 million), as the cost of adding seats on an indoor building goes up exponentially when there is a need for concourses etc. It is possible that a replica of the BSA could have been built much more cheaply (say $16 million), but would anyone here seriously want such a building? It is also doubtful that the North Dakota Higher Education board would have ever given the UND / REA authority to build such an arena, when a 12,000 seat already sits on campus.

[star2city]

Wait a minute...you mean to tell me that the REA and the Betty were "donated" to the university and now you have to pay rent. (to who?) With the very little I know about the situation, it sounds more like somebody put up an investment property rather than a donated property. It is like putting up a mini-mall with guaranteed tenants for life...if it were only that easy.

Are the rent checks going to a corporation that is affiliated with the Engelstad family? Does the REA make money? If so, does UND get a piece of it? Thanks!

If I am way off base...let me know.

The ND Board of Higher Education authorized the building of the Ralph on UND (and therefore, state) land on the condition that no additional costs would be imposed on the state allocation to UND. Therefore, the Ralph has to be entirely self-supporting, with all staff, energy, improvements and etc. paid for by the Ralph's non-profit corporation. The Ralph 'pays' UND for services, such as steam, while anyone renting ice or court-time pays the Ralph. Ticket income goes to the Ralph, while seat licenses from the Fighting Sioux Club (which have increased significantly) go to the Athletic department. The Ralph's profits, after paying off the debt from the Betty, paying into a 'rainy' day fund, or financing other improvements, are returned to the athletic deparment as charitable donations.

[DukeWoods]

I know for a fact that once the women's hockey team went to a full budget there was a 30% cut in budget for the men's and women's basketball department. Tell me how that is good for the athletic department! what is the attendence for whockey-- 250 to 500 people and how many of those tickets are parents, giveaways etc. I am not against title 9 but I was one who was against whockey being d1 because of the effect it would have on all other programs including women's. That program will NEVER make $$$$$ it will always be a hinderance on the department!

[UND92,96]

That is exactly correct.

Gene Roebuck was one of the prime advocates of a move to the Betty, so much of the complaints on this board ought to be directed to him as anyone else.

Two points here. One, Roebuck probably thought the same thing we fans thought--that capacity was going to be at or near 4000. While that's still on the small side, it would have been okay for all but the biggest of games. Capacity is roughly 25% less than expected. That changes things. And just to show that the SCSU game wasn't a complete fluke, the Mary game last night was roughly 95% full. And that was for a game in which nobody thought it would be anything other than a blowout.

Two, it's Roebuck's job to run a clean program and win games--not worry about the financial aspects of having hundreds or even thousands of people who want to attend games but can't due to the fact that biggest-drawing program in the league is playing in the second-smallest venue. I don't doubt that he and the players would probably still prefer to play in the Betty than Hyslop or the Ralph even knowing what we now know about its lack of capacity. The Betty gives them a better chance to win than does the Ralph, and is nicer than Hyslop. But financial good sense dictates that you don't shortchange yourself, particularly in a time of ever-expanding budget needs. I just can't get past the idea suggested by coachdags and others that the building was rushed to accommodate the world juniors, which, if true, was a lame reason to rush something of this magnitude. To me, waiting a few more years would have given REA a better idea of what sort of revenue stream to expect. At that point, a more careful decision could have been made regarding the design of and budget for the facility.