UND's DI review committee

[bincitysioux]

Another example would be Northern Iowa...Moved to Div / Div 1AA..in around 1978...

This was there 1st year they made it to the Natl Champ game in football...

If you're worried about that sort of thing, look at Montana St. They won the DII title in 1976, and then won the I-AA title 8 years later in 1984. How many years did it take UND to go to its first National Championship game in football? A long time. How about women's basketball, have we been a national power since the program's inception? Nope. Everything takes time. Dale Lennon could be offered a coordinator job at a Big 10 school and the football program could easily end up where Minnesota State is at. Probably won't happen, but it could. Gene Roebuck could retire, and the dominance of the Sioux Women's program could come to an end. Don't forget, the men's bball team wasn't always what it is now. There was a time when they were a force to be reckoned with.

Edited December 24, 2005 by bincitysioux

[supersioux]

Totally agree that there will need to be cuts. A sport like golf, which now consists of van trips, will become much more expensive with the travel involved. A decision on DII vs DI is also about recruiting local/regional vs regional/national athletes, having a mix of sports with a chance of being competitive, having sports that help pay their way, and doing the most with the resources and facilities and climate limitations we have.

Here's a table that show scholarship requirements if we maintained all sports and went DI fully funded, DI and dropping sports, and DI w/ lax..

Men . . . . Now . . . . DI-Full . . DI-lite . . . DI+lax

Football . 36 . . . . . 63 . . . . . 63 . . . . . . 63

Basketball 12 . . . . . 13 . . . . . 13 . . . . . . 13

Hockey . . 18 . . . . . 18 . . . . . 18. . . . . . 18

T&F&XC . 3.5 . . . . . 18 . . . . . 6 . . . . . . 6

Baseball . 2.4 . . . . . 11.8 . . . . x . . . . . . x

Golf . . . . 0.2 . . . . . 4.5 . . . . . x . . . . . . x

Swimming 3.3 . . . . . 8.1 . . . . . 8 . . . . . . 8

Lacrosse . x . . . . . . x . . . . . . x . . . . . . 12

Total . . . . 75.4 . . . . 136.4 . . . 108 . . . . 120

Women . . Now . . . DI-Full . . DI-lite . . DI+lax

Volleyball 8 . . . . . 12 . . . . . 12 . . . . . 12

Basketba 10. . . . . 15 . . . . . 15 . . . . . 15

Hockey . 12. . . . . 18 . . . . . 18 . . . . . 18

T&F&XC . 4 . . . . . 18 . . . . . 18 . . . . . 18

Softball . 5.5 . . . . . 12 . . . . . x . . . . . x

Golf . . . . 1 . . . . . 6 . . . . . x . . . . . x

Swimming 6.56 . . . . 8.1 . . . . 8 . . . . . 8

Tennis . . 2.5 . . . . . 8 . . . . . 8 . . . . . 8

Soccer . . 8 . . . . . 12. . . . . 12 . . . . . 12

Lacrosse . x . . . . . x . . . . . x . . . . . 12

Total . . . . 57.56 . . 109.1 . . 91. . . . . 103

Its much easier to understand how a DI lax team could be supported (especially if we stay DII) than how football will generate more revenue to pay for its nearly doubling of expenses at the IAA level.

In reality, the only way DI men's lacrosse works is if men's swimming is also dropped (and women's swimming stays so a women's lacrosse team does have not to happen). Considering that the Big SKy "mandates" M&W golf & M&W tennis, swimming may well be on the chopping block if we were in the BSC and the conference kept their requirements.

Not all the info is accurate. Soccer Scholarships were cut back to 7 last spring. I would like to see you add another column to the table and that is the # of scholarship our current programs are allowed to have vs what the do have.

There is a lot of DI talk and it seems that a lot of people have the wait and see attitude. There is one point being missed and that is funding our current sports fully will make the jump smaller. Also finding ways to increase current endowments will help the finicial jump. I would like to see a committment to that before a DI move is announced. LETS BE PROACTIVE vs REACTIVE

[star2city]

Not all the info is accurate. Soccer Scholarships were cut back to 7 last spring. I would like to see you add another column to the table and that is the # of scholarship our current programs are allowed to have vs what the do have.

There is a lot of DI talk and it seems that a lot of people have the wait and see attitude. There is one point being missed and that is funding our current sports fully will make the jump smaller. Also finding ways to increase current endowments will help the finicial jump. I would like to see a committment to that before a DI move is announced. LETS BE PROACTIVE vs REACTIVE

The numbers above were based on the last posted schlarships from this forum (except W Hockey - which should now be at 12). Won't add a column, but already had the DII allowable numbers:

Men DII allowed

Football 36

Basketball 12

Hockey 18* (DI)

T&F&XC 12.6

Baseball 9

Golf 3.6

Swimming 8.1

Total allowed by DII: 99.3 = UND fully funded @ DII

Total with NCC restrictions: 81 = UND fully funded in NCC

Women DII allowed

Volleyball 8

Basketba 10

Hockey 18* (DI)

T&F&XC 12.6

Softball 7.2

Golf 5.4

Swimming 8.1

Tennis 6

Soccer 9.9

Total 85.2 = UND fully funded in DII

[coachdags]

Couple of other things to keep in mind....

Big Sky is a Dream...Do not think it will happen in our lifetime...They have made a commitment to stay west, and Besides that Remember...DIV1 Institutions "DO NOT WANT US"...why share revenues with anymore schools then you have too?

Bincitysioux- Do we have the Pateince for any losing seasons.....All I ever hear at the Bar, is why we dont win now?...There are Boosters that thought this year in FB was a under acheving season....Last year half way thru the hockey season..very few were supporting "our Hockey Coach of the Year",they were calling for his head?....Womens Volleyball finally made a regional 2 years ago,1st time in forever and now ,we want a new Coach?....Our Mens BBall is not as bad as the fans make it out to be, Our head coach will break most of Gunthers(Considered a LEGEND) Records this year, and people have wanted him gone for the last 5 years?.....

I just hope we have the Patience and Financial Support of Boosters,Community,Alumni,while we struggle with transition...Because we will..Everyone Does...

I too also visited with Rick Hartzel at UNI...While up at Mac's Game last year with Iowa State in Cedar Falls...and What "Siouxmenow" says is 100% correct....Hartzel... is in my opinion in the top 50 ad's in the country...I beleive he knows of what he Speaks....

Edited December 24, 2005 by coachdags

[Cratter]

Talked to Northern Iowas AD Rick Hartzell a couple years ago (who wasn't the AD at the time of the move) and asked him straight out...knowing what you know now...would you make the move to DI? He said no, too expensive and "opportunities for national success are suprisingly few and far between." Schools "like us" can't compete on the real DI level and "alumni are hesitant to write a big check" when about all you can aspire to is a "conference championship."

Seems like if you want to sell out ALL your athletic programs for possible success at the di-AA level in FB(which CoachDags correctly points out is basically a glorified DII) - go ahead and do it! Just be aware of the consequences....

Your real question then should have been why don't you move back down?

You can't really dispute that IAA football is part of Division I. It says it right there: IAA.

[coachdags]

Call it what you want.... We will not be playing in the rosebowl anytime soon?

[coachdags]

hey UND92,96...can u help me out on this....

How Many DIV 1aa....FOOTBALL teams?

How Many Div 1..Football?

How many Div2....Football teams?

How many Div 1 Hockey Teams?

And maybe about how many Div 1 Mens , Womens Bball?

I could look it up.. but I'm sure you may already know?

Thanks in advance

[supersioux]

[NDSU grad]

hey UND92,96...can u help me out on this....

How Many DIV 1aa....FOOTBALL teams?

How Many Div 1..Football?

How many Div2....Football teams?

How many Div 1 Hockey Teams?

And maybe about how many Div 1 Mens , Womens Bball?

I could look it up.. but I'm sure you may already know?

Thanks in advance

I'm winging this, but I think I'm close.

About 120 D-IA football teams, about 120 I-AA football teams, about 150 DII football teams.

Hockey, don't really know. I believe there are 334 teams in men's and women's bball competing at the DI level.

[bincitysioux]

There are 58 Division I hockey schools

[dakotadan]

In the St. Cloud Times article it stated that there had been 51 school move to DI since 1985. Does anybody know where we could find a list of these schools for comparative measures?

[bisonguy]

hey UND92,96...can u help me out on this....

How Many DIV 1aa....FOOTBALL teams?

How Many Div 1..Football?

How many Div2....Football teams?

How many Div 1 Hockey Teams?

And maybe about how many Div 1 Mens , Womens Bball?

I could look it up.. but I'm sure you may already know?

Thanks in advance

Here's the list for all sports, all divisions- http://www1.ncaa.org/membership/membership_svcs/sponssummary

[bincitysioux]

Does anybody know where we could find a list of these schools for comparative measures?

http://www.diaafootball.com/

This site tells what year each school started its I-AA membership. But it doesn't say which division the school played in prior to I-AA.

[coachdags]

Im not sure what point I was trying to make once I got all that Info...But Thanks..

I guess it boils down to the Most Prestigous of Sports at the Div1 Level is The NCAA B-Ball tourney unless you can get into the BCS Championships-(NOT)

There are more schools Chasing that dream then ever...and Continue to do so....Div1 Institutions do not like to share revenues....Case in Point---We GET NOTHING, for a 7 time National Champion Hockey Program?...

I personally do not feel The UND,Community,School,Coaches,Programs can compete at satisfactory success level to ...Be in Div 1..

Recruiting the right Athletes

Balancing the Budget

Support of Fans and Alumni

are the 3 of the main reasons...

[bincitysioux]

Im not sure what point I was trying to make once I got all that Info...But Thanks..

I guess it boils down to the Most Prestigous of Sports at the Div1 Level is The NCAA B-Ball tourney unless you can get into the BCS Championships-(NOT)

There are more schools Chasing that dream then ever...and Continue to do so....Div1 Institutions do not like to share revenues....Case in Point---We GET NOTHING, for a 7 time National Champion Hockey Program?...

I personally do not feel The UND,Community,School,Coaches,Programs can compete at satisfactory success level to ...Be in Div 1..

Recruiting the right Athletes

Balancing the Budget

Support of Fans and Alumni

are the 3 of the main reasons...

If UND were DI in all sports, then we would share in the revenues from making it to the Frozen Four just like Minnesota, Denver, etc.

[coachdags]

Understand ..but I do not think revenue sharing from the Frozen Four will be enough to balance a Div 1 budget....

We need Funds? and If the BIG MONEY is in the NCAA Final Four..and the BCS two of which I believe we will never get a consistent chance at...? BCS Never beacuse of 1AA

I believe the share with Conference Affiliation 1st and Particapants 2nd....

Edited December 27, 2005 by coachdags

[dakotadan]

Okay, I sat and went through every school and wrote down their information. Because I did it all by hand I may have switched a few numbers up. If anyone catches any mistakes let me know so that I can change them. The numbers look like they are all from 2003. Sorry I couldn't get it in a better graph so that it was easier to read.

Morgan St, MD

Edited December 27, 2005 by dakotadan

[bincitysioux]

You are a dedicated fan dakotadan!

So only 5 of those schools have better attendance for football than UND, and only 8 have higher enrollments.

Here is how UND stacks up against the Big Sky schools, demographically.

UND

Enrollment: ~13,000

FB Attend: 9,426

BB Attend: 2,791 (2004-05)

Big Sky

Enrollment: 17,042

FB Attend: 10,281

BB Attend: 2,290 (2004-05)

DI NCC (including UND, USD, NDSU, SDSU, SCSU, MSU-M, and UNO)

Enrollment: 12,401

FB Attend: 7,293

BB Attend: 2,464

[GCWaters]

Okay, I sat and went through every school and wrote down their information. Because I did it all by hand I may have switched a few numbers up. If anyone catches any mistakes let me know so that I can change them. The numbers look like they are all from 2003. Sorry I couldn't get it in a better graph so that it was easier to read.

Morgan St, MD

[Bison Dan]

[NDSU grad]

I think it's a list of schools that have either moved up to I-AA in the last 20 years or so or have added football in that same time frame.

[GCWaters]

I think it's a list of schools that have either moved up to I-AA in the last 20 years or so or have added football in that same time frame.

Ah, gotcha...no more confusion!

[IowaBison]

Men . . . . Now . . . . DI-Full . . DI-lite . . . DI+lax

Football . 36 . . . . . 63 . . . . . 63 . . . . . . 63

Basketball 12 . . . . . 13 . . . . . 13 . . . . . . 13

Hockey . . 18 . . . . . 18 . . . . . 18. . . . . . 18

T&F&XC . 3.5 . . . . . 18 . . . . . 6 . . . . . . 6

Baseball . 2.4 . . . . . 11.8 . . . . x . . . . . . x

Golf . . . . 0.2 . . . . . 4.5 . . . . . x . . . . . . x

Swimming 3.3 . . . . . 8.1 . . . . . 8 . . . . . . 8

Lacrosse . x . . . . . . x . . . . . . x . . . . . . 12

Total . . . . 75.4 . . . . 136.4 . . . 108 . . . . 120

Women . . Now . . . DI-Full . . DI-lite . . DI+lax

Volleyball 8 . . . . . 12 . . . . . 12 . . . . . 12

Basketba 10. . . . . 15 . . . . . 15 . . . . . 15

Hockey . 12. . . . . 18 . . . . . 18 . . . . . 18

T&F&XC . 4 . . . . . 18 . . . . . 18 . . . . . 18

Softball . 5.5 . . . . . 12 . . . . . x . . . . . x

Golf . . . . 1 . . . . . 6 . . . . . x . . . . . x

Swimming 6.56 . . . . 8.1 . . . . 8 . . . . . 8

Tennis . . 2.5 . . . . . 8 . . . . . 8 . . . . . 8

Soccer . . 8 . . . . . 12. . . . . 12 . . . . . 12

Lacrosse . x . . . . . x . . . . . x . . . . . 12

Total . . . . 57.56 . . 109.1 . . 91. . . . . 103

Under the DI-lite and DI+lax, exactly what conference do expect UND to get into?

[DamStrait]

Under the DI-lite and DI+lax, exactly what conference do expect UND to get into?

Man, when you beat a horse, you make sure to beat it dead.

[IowaBison]

Man, when you beat a horse, you make sure to beat it dead.

I'm serious.

The reason I visit this site is to gain insight into UND's potential move to Division I. I also (usually) enjoy the whatif scenarios that many posters contribute.

However, this lacrosse thread seems to be so disconnected from the financial realities facing the University that I have taken the liberty to bring up my concerns. I don't do this because I enjoy poo-pooing the creative endeavors of other posters, but rather because I believe that often times the hypotheticals, in this instance the addition of lacrosse, need to be brought down to earth a little.

(I'll gladly mention that I do the same thing when imagining where NDSU will end up conference-wise. I'm just intelligent enough not to post that under a certain, rare set of circumstances, the Bison will end up in the BIG XII, as it is based in pure fantasy.)