A Move to D1-AA...Good or Bad Idea

[bing]

It has been discussed in the football forums that UND football needs to move to D1-AA. That the program is only regressing and falling further and further behind programs like NDSU.

As a former athlete for UND in a sport other than football, I know what this move would do to my program. But I wanted to see what others had to say about a D1-AA move, and how it might affect all the other wonderful programs at UND.

[jimdahl]

It has been discussed in the football forums that UND football needs to move to D1-AA. That the program is only regressing and falling further and further behind programs like NDSU.

As a former athlete for UND in a sport other than football, I know what this move would do to my program. But I wanted to see what others had to say about a D1-AA move, and how it might affect all the other wonderful programs at UND.

Well, no other sports have a I-AA, so you'd be talking a move to D-I in basketball and all other sports. I struggle to imagine any sport in which UND would quickly be nationally competitive in D-I, outside of swimming & diving. The goal for basketball would change from a national championship to making the playoffs and getting to play a first round bodybag game against Duke or UConn.

I would guess that most college basketball players would rather play to win their D-I conference and make a March Madness appearance than win a D-II championship. Pure speculation on my part, though.

[mksioux]

I would guess that most college basketball players would rather play to win their D-I conference and make a March Madness appearance than win a D-II championship. Pure speculation on my part, though.

I would guess most fans would feel the same way too. I know I would.

[4siouxnow]

I think differently it is more fun to win a National championship than to be slayed by the giants. I think that is why some of the Sioux programs are so successful.

[supersioux]

DI in a conference with an automatic bid for NCAA sports would be benificial if the UNIVERSITY/COMMUNITY/STUDENTS fund it.

I state that because if it is going to work, the university will have to give more to athletics. The community will need to pay more, either thru ticket prices or fundraising. And the students may need to increase or pass a fee that pays for athletics.

If the university/community/students will back I know the coaches will want it.

[bing]

I struggle to imagine any sport in which UND would quickly be nationally competitive in D-I, outside of swimming & diving.

UND's swimming and diving program may be one of the top in D2, but D1 swimming is a whole different story. Most of our D2 national qualifiers would not qualify for D1 Nationals. In swimming there are A and B cut times--A is automatic, B is provisional. The A cuts for D2 are slower than the B cuts for D1, in some cases they are considerably slower.

I love UND football, and I do believe in remaining competitive. I just feel when I hear people speak about moving to D1-AA, that they do not think about our other sports. I am not as knowledgeable about basketball, but when I attended UND the women's program was so strong. What happens in a D1 atmosphere?

As was pointed out, I worded my first post poorly. A move to D1-AA for football is a move to D1 for all other sports, and those other sports deserve to be apart of the discussion as much as football.

[BringDeanBack]

Well, no other sports have a I-AA, so you'd be talking a move to D-I in basketball and all other sports. I struggle to imagine any sport in which UND would quickly be nationally competitive in D-I, outside of swimming & diving. The goal for basketball would change from a national championship to making the playoffs and getting to play a first round bodybag game against Duke or UConn.

I would guess that most college basketball players would rather play to win their D-I conference and make a March Madness appearance than win a D-II championship. Pure speculation on my part, though.

Perhaps UND women's basketball could move up to DI if Kupchella's proposal goes through. And perhaps the men's team could move down to D3 so Coach Glas could be competitive again.

[D1sioux]

Perhaps UND women's basketball could move up to DI if Kupchella's proposal goes through. And perhaps the men's team could move down to D3 so Coach Glas could be competitive again.

You really think the NCAA is considering his letter?? Do not be crazy!!! The only schools the NCAA listens to are the BCS schools---the BIG DAWGS--and UND isnt in that class!!!

[BringDeanBack]

You really think the NCAA is considering his letter?? Do not be crazy!!! The only schools the NCAA listens to are the BCS schools---the BIG DAWGS--and UND isnt in that class!!!

It's called sarcasm. I will try to make it more obvious for you next time.

[coachdags]

Just My Opinion......Move to D1aa Football...Move to Div1 all others sports...BOTH "BAD IDEAS"

[dakotadan]

And the plot thickens...

[SiouxMD]

And the plot thickens...

SCSU Could Go Division I - KFAN 1390

[Cratter]

SCSU Could Go Division I - KFAN 1390

That would be good for UND.

[bincitysioux]

First off, I am a huge supporter of UND and ALL of its athletics, I don't want to see any program suffer. Not football, not XC. Not hockey, and not Tennis. And I sure don't want to belittle any of our wonderful programs or the athletes that play them. But.......

I have heard alot of talk about UND being better off as a "Big fish in a small pond". Well, my question is what constitutes being a big fish? Being good in Football, Women's Basketball, and Swimming? Cause those are the only sports UND has had national championship success in. I would like to know what other "fish" are in the national FB/WBB/S&D "pond" that UND is the big fish of.

Track & Field has had little success since the 1930's. Baseball has won 2 NCC titles, the last in 1967. Soccer has never won an NCC title but appear to be headed in the right direction. The Tennis team has made the NCAA tourney 4 years in a row. But in 66 years they only have three conference championships. The softball team has not had a winning season in this millenium. Men's basketball is in a downward spiral, and hasn't won an outright NCC title in 15 years.

In the meantime, Football has enjoyed a period of unprecedented success with its first national championship, the women's basketball team has won 3 national championships in the last 10 years, and the Swimming & Diving teams have crowned 22 individual National Champions and 16 relay team national champions, and competes against and has success against DI competition all season long.

My point is that ever since UND has been playing football, women's basketball, swimming and diving, those programs have had success, and can usually be counted on as being a factor in NCAA play. The same cannot and has not ever been said about UND's other sports (except Men's B-ball every once in a while). Why not get behind these programs even more, and propel them to higher level, where I firmly beleive they will continue to have success, and continue to work on developing the rest of the Athletic Programs at the next level where at the very least, more fans may take notice if they are competing against the Minnesotas or Montanas of the world than they do if they are competing against the Upper Iowas or Wayne St. of the world.

A Move to DI: Good Idea

Edited December 2, 2005 by bincitysioux

[UND Fan]

There are a lot of folks who strongly feel a move to DI is the right decision for UND and it certainly may be. Probably the most important factor is how we would fund it.

The Athletic Budget is running in the red now. Moving to DI, attendance may go up some and we may get some guarantees. I am not sure that we could raise tickets prices much more - they are quite high for the GF area. These added funds would not be nearly enough to offset the tremendous increase in scholarship costs, recruiting costs, team travel costs, etc.

Adding another 40-50 scholarships (all sports) along with trying to fully fund women's hockey. North Dakota and reciprical states' tuition, room, board, etc. cost well more than $10,000 per scholarship and $17,000+ for other states. Those numbers may not be correct but should be semi-close. Putting more athletes on scholarship mean that you will be bringing many more recruits in for campus visits and.......

One of the biggest problems is simply geography. There are normally many

????????

SOMETHING HAPPENED TO THE NEXT 4-5 PARAGRAPHS OF MY POST - I DON'T HAVE TIME TO RESURRECT IT NOW. I WILL AT A LATER TIME!

Edited December 2, 2005 by UND Fan

[The Sicatoka]

I really can't argue with point brought out by bincitysioux.

However, I keep coming back to money and conference.

Answer those and the decision is easy.

[Cratter]

I really can't argue with point brought out by bincitysioux.

However, I keep coming back to money and conference.

Answer those and the decision is easy.

I remember you quoting Montana as having running in the red when they won a championship and were playing basketball in March. How do they and numerous others do it?

[sokarcrazy]

First off, I am a huge supporter of UND and ALL of its athletics, I don't want to see any program suffer. Not football, not XC. Not hockey, and not Tennis. And I sure don't want to belittle any of our wonderful programs or the athletes that play them. But.......

I have heard alot of talk about UND being better off as a "Big fish in a small pond". Well, my question is what constitutes being a big fish? Being good in Football, Women's Basketball, and Swimming? Cause those are the only sports UND has had national championship success in. I would like to know what other "fish" are in the national FB/WBB/S&D "pond" that UND is the big fish of.

Track & Field has had little success since the 1930's. Baseball has won 2 NCC titles, the last in 1967. Soccer has never won an NCC title but appear to be headed in the right direction. The Tennis team has made the NCAA tourney 4 years in a row. But in 66 years they only have three conference championships. The softball team has not had a winning season in this millenium. Men's basketball is in a downward spiral, and hasn't won an outright NCC title in 15 years.

In the meantime, Football has enjoyed a period of unprecedented success with its first national championship, the women's basketball team has won 3 national championships in the last 10 years, and the Swimming & Diving teams have crowned 22 individual National Champions and 16 relay team national champions, and competes against and has success against DI competition all season long.

My point is that ever since UND has been playing football, women's basketball, swimming and diving, those programs have had success, and can usually be counted on as being a factor in NCAA play. The same cannot and has not ever been said about UND's other sports (except Men's B-ball every once in a while). Why not get behind these programs even more, and propel them to higher level, where I firmly beleive they will continue to have success, and continue to work on developing the rest of the Athletic Programs at the next level where at the very least, more fans may take notice if they are competing against the Minnesotas or Montanas of the world than they do if they are competing against the Upper Iowas or Wayne St. of the world.

A Move to DI: Good Idea

bincitysioux I echo your message as I do support all of the sioux programs. It comes down to money as some of our programs aren't even fully funded (scholarship wise) at the DII level, the sport I most enjoy soccer included. The committment should be to position the university for the easiest possible transition when the move is made. That means update facilities (baseball, soccer, softball, track) fund scholarships to the maximum level (W hockey, soccer, and the others I'm not aware of). Increase the overall endowment to help the current budget strain. ALL OF THESE THINGS CAN BE DONE WHILE UND IS DII and BEFORE UND IS DI.

[The Sicatoka]

To quote the "EMPIRICAL EFFECTS OF DIVISION II INTERCOLLEGIATE ATHLETICS" study by Orszag and Orszag for the NCAA DII presidents, they do it by increasing the amounts of athletic support from "institutional support, state government support, and student fees."

Let me translate those for you:

Institutional support is university discretionary funds (from various sources like donors who don't specify a use for the money, or outside grant program funds, or interest on bonds held) that could go to any department or program but that are funneled to run athletics.

State government support is just that. Student fees is just that.

Here's a striking paragraph from that report's executive summary:

In our dataset, the schools switching divisions for all sports experienced an average real increase in spending of $3.7 million.

Their revenue, by contrast, increased by an average of only $2.5 million

[Cratter]

To quote the "EMPIRICAL EFFECTS OF DIVISION II INTERCOLLEGIATE ATHLETICS" study by Orszag and Orszag for the NCAA DII presidents, they do it by increasing the amounts of athletic support from "institutional support, state government support, and student fees."

Let me translate those for you:

Institutional support is university discretionary funds (from various sources like donors who don't specify a use for the money, or outside grant program funds, or interest on bonds held) that could go to any department or program but that are funneled to run athletics.

State government support is just that. Student fees is just that.

Here's a striking paragraph from that report's executive summary:

[star2city]

Gallager has stated that the development of the Bronson property will soon start to bring in a $1 million a year to the University. There's almost half of the money needed for the move.

Doubtful that much of that money would get committed to athletics permanently. Each college and department have their own pet projects - its kind of a carrot to keep interest and performance and morale high. Also, a portion of it would be used to attract big-name guest lecturers - which would help UND's reputation.

If all those recently (25 years ago to present) IAA schools can find a way to fund the move so can UND.

DO any schools go broke? Has any IAA moved back or down to D2 (because of lack of money or any other reasons)?

Almost all IAA schools struggle with athletic finances. Only one school has gone broke in part because of a DI move - Morris Brown in Atlanta, which is now only a shell of its former self. If Florida A&M had been a private school, it might not still be open after its fiasco with attempting to move to IA football (from IAA).

Over the past 30 years or so, a number of schools have dropped from DI to DII, NAIA, or dropped sports entirely, because of finances. Almost all are private schools. Public schools don't normally drop levels, but they drop sports. Here's a partial list of DI dropouts:

Augusta

Armstrong State

Houston Baptist

W Texas A&M (actually was a member of the Missouri Valley Conference but forced to drop out)

Hardin-Simmons

Oklahoma City U

Oral Roberts (later returned to DI)

Denver U (later returned to DI)

U of Tampa

NE Illinois

Seattle

Cal State- LA

U. S. International

Morris Brown