NCAA gives FSU a pass

[ScottM]

This gives me a ray of hope, though I am still worried that the NCAA is only trying to wriggle out from under the pressue of the big time schools and will try to save face with the smaller schools. And I'm afraid they will ignore any criticism about not being consistent, as will other supporters of nickname censorship. Why? Because they'll take anything they can get and call it a victory.

And this is why FSU's campaign is a map for UND. Florida got everybody on the same sheet of music, including its politicians, and delivered the same message. The only comments I've seen outside of UND were some comments by the Governor. The louder FSU and its allies rattled their sabres, the faster the NC$$ looked for an out, even if they looked like hypocritical fools in the process. In order to sharpen its Appeal to the NC$$, it would not hurt if UND got some/all of NoDak's congressional delegation on board too, and continued keeping its message in the media, e.g., ESPN, the wires, etc. No matter what their politics, these guys do have clout in DC, and now is a good time to have them represent their constituents, especially with an election on the horizon.

[mksioux]

Some interesting quotes in this story:

Other schools set to appeal Indian names

From the President of the National Congress of American Indians:

"I guess that the FSU exemption will be interpreted the way people want to see it, whether it is a red light or green light. The National Congress is going to stay vigilant and work so there aren't glaring examples of racism and stereotyping involving the use of a mascot or logo that will be exempted from the NCAA's historic decision."

Hall said the Seminoles' support of FSU separates that case. "The real message we need to take away from this is that the Seminole Tribe's decision was exactly that

[KnowtheFacts]

Now that I am somewhat removed from UND, I feel comfortable breaking my silence.  I have worked with a lot of American Indians and it has been part of my training since I was at UND.  It has been great to work with American Indians.  A good majority of them are so caring and their Native American culture has a lot of advantages, such as the ceremonies used when a death occurs.  I went to a classmate's party that is American Indian and her whole family welcomed me and congratulated me on my graduation.  They did more than my family would ever do for a guest. 

I have heard many stereotypical comments and questions.  "I bet you deal with a lot of alcoholics."  You know what, it was about the same number of alcoholics and drug abuses that are white veterans of this country.  While there were ignorant comments made, the only real racism I saw this year was from American Indians.  Yes people, it happens both ways and it isn't right either way.  Fortunately there was an American Indian what was willing to stand up and point out what these people were doing.  So like everything in life, there are people on both sides of an issue. 

I have seen several American Indians wearing Fighting Sioux clothing in several areas of the Dakotas.  What kind of protest is that?  UND is doing research on schools that have changed their American Indian names.  As far as I know, there have not been any findings suggesting that anything negative was occuring with the name used, or anything positive gained when the name changed.  So I ask anyone that really wants the Fighting Siouxname gone, what is it about?  Explain to me why you want the name changed.  Don't even try to claim you are speaking for everyone, because I have firsthand experience that says otherwise.  Why does the Sioux name mean something bad in some cases, yet it is proudly used by American Indians in other cases?  Also, flip it around and assume that UND will always be the Fighting Sioux.  If that is the case, what could UND and the community do to make you proud that UND is the Fighting Sioux?  For those American Indians that want to answer, please feel to PM me or reply here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have seen several American Indians wearing Fighting Sioux clothing in several areas of the Dakotas.  What kind of protest is that?

Just like you said above, "like everything in life, there are people on both sides of an issue."

However, you must also acknowledge that except for Flandreau and a questionable resolution by Spirit Lake, all of the other Sioux tribes have resolutions stating that the nickname at UND should be changed. (I use the word "questionable" because there is some wording in the actual Spirit Lake resolution that Kupchella failed to mention, I would recommend if you are serious about the issue to read the resolution for yourself.)

Also you should know that of all the schools that HAVE changed their names that there has not been a significant negative impact. Stanford was one of the first schools to change and they have not run into the ground due to lack of funding.

Why does the Sioux name mean something bad in some cases, yet it is proudly used by American Indians in other cases?

Again as above, "like everything in life, there are people on both sides of an issue." Also in the same train of thought is that everybody is does not fully know the history of UND's use of the name and the present impact on Native American Students. Im not sure a thorough study has been done on this. Most people form their opinion before they know all of the facts.

Also, flip it around and assume that UND will always be the Fighting Sioux.  If that is the case, what could UND and the community do to make you proud that UND is the Fighting Sioux?

At this point, Im not sure that can happen. It has been many years that Native Americans have been working on this issue. People on this board are right. Why NOW is it important to start working on relationships with tribes? I do think the motives would be questionable.

I always hear how UND's name was changed to honor the Sioux people. There is no documentation of that at the time the name was changed. There are other reasons however. I think that reasoning comes from the line you hear at the Hockey games. Mostly because I cant get anyone to explain more about how the 'name' gives honor to Sioux people.

I'm not American Indian, but my children are. I think that the community really does believe that they are doing honor to the Sioux people by having this logo. But why wont they *listen* to the Sioux People then? (you know, all those tribes that have asked UND to change the name...) That is MY question that never gets answered.

[fightonsioux]

I don't have to listen to the Sioux people I can see the Sioux people in their Sioux jerseys at a hockey game on a given Friday and Saturday night. I think that speaks how they feel about the name.

[mikejm]

PCM: all of what you've contributed here and on USCHO has been good stuff, and presents a logical argument supporting UND's appeal of the NCAA decision. Thank you for your hard work, and for your untiring support of the Fighting Sioux. I think, however, that the folks in Indianapolis will deny North Dakota's appeal because the Lakota tribes here are split in their stance toward the nickname: Spirit Lake says "yes"; Standing Rock "no". It will make no difference to them that UND has a long and successful history of special programs for Native students. The NCAA is looking for a hook on which to hang their hat, and the Standing Rock resolution will be enough for them.

Make no mistake, the prospect of the University losing this identity causes me untold sadness. While I continue to hope that some combination of luck and common sense (an attribute not often demonstrated within the hallowed walls of the NCAA) will sway the eggheads, I am beginning to dread what appears inevitable.

[jpiehl]

This is exactly the scenario that I feared would come about with UND's lack of a substantive response immediately after the ruling came down. We needed to be a pain to the NCAA like FSU and alongside FSU, not hoping to ride on their coattails when they took the issue to court. FSU has a fine law school and the NCAA, as we all saw, had absolutely no interest in fighting with a big dog. But they are fine and dandy with putting several little dogs in a cage and forget about them. And FSU has no interest in the fight as a whole, just in the part that allows them to keep their name, logo, and mascot intact. Also keep in mind that many of the other instituitions will see no effect whatsoever, since it applies to postseason and the small D-1 schools don't often even get a sniff of the postseason. Once Illinois is granted an exemption on whatever basis the NCAA dreams up to avoid that fight, and probably Utah, there is no more fight. Nobody will care on a national level. There will be no talk on ESPN. No more columns written on this ridiculous and assinine rule. And we will be stuck with generic playoff jerseys that can't even have the name of our school, much less the name of our team. Not that I wanted this, but I saw it coming a mile away when I heard the comments of 'We need to study the issue to decide what our response will be'. If the name goes away, you can count me in on the side that will never donate another dime to UND. And not just because I graduated a Fighting Sioux, but more for the tepid response that resulted in this.

[KnowtheFacts]

I don't have to listen to the Sioux people I can see the Sioux people in their Sioux jerseys at a hockey game on a given Friday and Saturday night. I think that speaks how they feel about the name.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for proving my point. You dont care what the tribes have to say. That is not the "honor" you brag about.

Again how many times do we have to have this discussion that one or two people dont speak or act for the entire tribe unless they are elected to do so.

[PCM]

I think, however, that the folks in Indianapolis will deny North Dakota's appeal because the Lakota tribes here are split in their stance toward the nickname: Spirit Lake says "yes"; Standing Rock "no". It will make no difference to them that UND has a long and successful history of special programs for Native students. The NCAA is looking for a hook on which to hang their hat, and the Standing Rock resolution will be enough for them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You could be right. However, if this goes to court, I like UND's chances. The more exemptions the NCAA grants (and I think it will grant more), the stronger UND's case becomes.

The NCAA can certainly say that it's going to limit its decisions on appeals to tribal support, but the NCAA can't control what happens in court. Once there, the organization will have to defend its legal rationale, which is:

The Executive Committee adopted the standard of "hostile and abusive" in part from case law. Members cited such language as being applied in civil cases in which decisions were reached on the basis of what "a reasonable person" would find to be hostile or abusive. The "hostile and abusive" standard also is stronger than simply "offensive," which courts have ruled is protected under the freedom of expression.

The NCAA will have to demonstrate why "a reasonable person" would not simply find UND's use of the Sioux name offensive, but "hostile and abusive," which is a more difficult standard to meet. At that point, UND can introduce evidence about its American Indian programs and the number of students who take advantage of them in comparison to other state-run universities in the region.

But the most difficult question for the NCAA to answer in court is will be:

If this isn't hostile and abusive...

...and this isn't hostile and abusive...

then is why this?

Edited August 24, 2005 by PCM

[Fedorov]

There is no documentation of that at the time the name was changed. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Are you kidding me? I am not going to waste my time responding to each of your points for two reasons. First, you wrote as if the Sioux American Indians only have one voice and opinion. I haven't seen your posts before so I don't even know if you are an American Indian. Second, you have got to be out of your mind to complain about documentation. What kind of documentation do American Indians use? Why do American Indians discourage people outside their culture from writing things down that they say? You either have no clue what you are saying, or you were hoping that I didn't know what I was talking about. Either way, I hope everyone realizes that your post was meaningless.

[Fedorov]

Again how many times do we have to have this discussion that one or two people dont speak or act for the entire tribe unless they are elected to do so.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

OK, let's talk about tribal government. When a new leader comes in and everyone gets fired, I guess the new leaders are speaking for the whole tribe.

[KnowtheFacts]

[KnowtheFacts]

OK, let's talk about tribal government. When a new leader comes in and everyone gets fired, I guess the new leaders are speaking for the whole tribe.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That is part of their job. Just like Gov. Hoevenis elected to speak on behalf of North Dakotans. You will learn this in your High School Government class, unless you havent taken it yet.

[fightonsioux]

It was more than one or two people.

[iramurphy]

[southpaw]

Thanks for proving my point. You dont care what the tribes have to say. That is not the "honor" you brag about.

Again how many times do we have to have this discussion that one or two people dont speak or act for the entire tribe unless they are elected to do so.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There you go again, making stuff up to try and prove your point. Where, at all, even close did fightonsioux say he doesn't "care what the tribes have to say." You stretch what others say and then twist it so you think you have this great point, that is actually you just making things up. You are bringing a lot of honor to the Sioux people. Despite the fact that you are not AI, you're decision to side with them brings negative views towards them because of the way you act.

[PCM]

From the 8/23/05 Morning Sun (MI):

CMU to appeal nickname order from NCAA

Central Michigan University officials have decided not to give up a 63-year-old tradition without a fight.

[mksioux]

Some quotes from Phil Harmeson about the reversal on Florida State:

"It appears they've set a precedent that we feel pretty good about," said Phil Harmeson, a senior associate to UND President Charles Kupchella.

North Dakota tribes have been split over the Fighting Sioux nickname. The Spirit Lake tribe, which is nearest the UND campus, has supported it, while the Standing Rock tribe has opposed it.

"That's something the NCAA will probably have to deal with if they decide that's the controlling factor," Harmeson said. "We will be arguing that that is not the controlling factor - it is a factor, but not the controlling factor."

[elmduf]

Okay.

Now, I read an article at the beginning of the issue about how supportive the Seminole tribe is of FSU's nickname. (Which, of course I can't find right now, figures)

In that article it stated that while one Seminole tribe in Oklahoma supported the nickname, some group of five tribal councils (I believe?) including five different Seminole tribes oppose the use of the nickname. In either case, the NCAA granted an exemption without having 100% full support for the Seminole name amongst all involved.

Why is this important? Because it establishes a precedent. Now, how can the NCAA possibly not grant an exemption to the Fighting Sioux nickname if one Sioux tribe supports it, yet another Sioux tribe opposes it?

Anyway, that's my .02.

Also, I think that a white guy riding a horse with Native gear on and then slamming a spear in the middle of a football field doesn't honor anyone.

You go, PCM!

[ScottM]

Okay.

Now, I read an article at the beginning of the issue about how supportive the Seminole tribe is of FSU's nickname.

[PCM]

Joe Henderson of the Tampa Tribune absolutely eviscerates the NCAA in a column headlined: NCAA Should Have Had A Powwow First

We Know Better

That's the real danger in political correctness. One side, given a bit of clout, can make decisions based on opinion, not facts. That's what happened here, and that's why the NCAA must be held accountable.

Not that it's exactly normal, mind you, for adults to paint their faces, wear feathers and make chopping motions with their hands while screaming "oooaaa, oooaaawhoooaaa ... ooaaaa, ooooaaa, ooooaaa."

But if the Tribe has spoken and says it's cool with that, which it has, the NCAA probably should have picked up on that little clue and left FSU off its star-chamber list.

It didn't.

What we got was Monty Python bringing out the dead -- "I'm feeling much better ... no you're not" -- and a few weeks of idiocy.

Next time, guys, do a little basic research before you fire off a memo. Pick up the phone, make a few calls, ask some questions. Get out, talk to people, and make your rulings based on facts, not assumptions.

It will save a lot of people from wasting time trying to clean up your messes, and it will save the NCAA from looking stupid.

Well, looking stupid again.

[dagies]

That is part of their job.  Just like Gov. Hoevenis elected to speak on behalf of North Dakotans. You will learn this in your High School Government class, unless you havent taken it yet.

Then you also know that an elected official who is elected to speak on behalf of their constituents often speak in a voice much different from that of the majority of their constituents. And this is something you learn in the school of hard knocks.

[U2Bad1]

The Spirit Lake tribe supports the name.. yet the standing rock opposes it? The sioux name is offensive because it was created by the white man and means snake? Then how come it's on their website??

http://www.standingrock.org/

[PCM]

Terence Moore, an Atlanta Journal-Constitution columnist who praised the NCAA for its new American Indian nickname and mascot policy, now says the NCAA foolishly caved in to Florida State.

When it comes to the controversy involving Native American mascots and imagery in college sports, the NCAA just blinked, and those associated with Florida State won the stare down.

Not good.

Not the fact that Florida State people apparently have that much power (make that too much power). Not the fact that those running the NCAA are showing that they are absolutely spineless. Not the fact that schools basically have the right now to do whatever they wish regarding mascots and imagery.

Edited August 25, 2005 by PCM

[YaneA]

PCM: Fix the link. That one takes the reader to your well-written, oft-cited opinion piece on USCHO. Way to increase readership!

[Runninwiththedogs]

OH DEAR GOD.

The people who made the original Chief Illiniwek costume were SIOUX. THOSE SELLOUTS! :